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A Long Start, another Iwagumi story

I wondering if anyone can offer some advise.

For the last week i have been struggling to get the magic 1 point PH drop before lights on in my tank.

Despite my best efforts the best i can achieve is a .5 ph drop - before co2 turn my tank has a typical ph of 6.9, my Co2 turns on 2.5 hours before lights turns, once light turns i'm getting a reading of 6.4ph which stay pretty much consistence until Co2 is turned off 1.5 hour before light turns off. :banghead:

Thinking that the issue was flow related, i introduced a small pump to provide additional flow, so much so now that it has uplift some of plant at the rear of the scape, i pretty sure i got more than sufficient flow.

The drop checker is pretty much yellow, and as i have currently no livestock i am blasting tank with as much CO2 as possible, BPS is uncountable, it like a constant stream.

upload_2018-2-8_23-18-41.png

Note sure if the picture reflects the colour as well as reality, its defiantly yellow.

The only algae i seem to be having is diatoms, but as it a newly setup tank that's to be expected and that seem to disappearing, plants seem to be happy, the UG melt seem to have now settle, and the bruce's also seem to be doing well with plenty of leave developing.

Is there anything else i can do to improve my PH drop?🙁

I considering moving my inline defuser to the inlet hose so it goes straight into the filter instead, wonder if this will improve my PH drop. 😕

Any suggests would be grateful received.

Cheers
 

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Good morning Foxfish,

Living in Manchester I have soft water, come out around 7ph from tap, thou not sure what my KH levels are.

Guess I will have to pick up a tester, any recommendations?

I notice this morning that my drop checker hasn’t changed colour, perharps my solution has gone off, thou only been flooded for 2.5 weeks.

Other than ph and drop checker is there any other way to determine ppm?

Cheers
 
I don’t think so, the drop checker with the correct, uncontaninated solution, will give a good indication when it is lime green.
I know it seems extreme but you could try even more co2 just to see it the ph drops anymore.
I can’t remember how you are diffusing the co2 ?
You should be able to get a tap water hardness from the local supplier.
 
Hello foxfish,

Appreciate the help.

Co2 is diffused with an Up in-line diffuser, brought brand new and only been used since scape was flooded (2.5 weeks).

I get a really fine mist around tank, so much so that water looks cloudy when co2 is on, goes back to being super clear with no surface scrum when co2 is turned off.

And while I have an added pump to improve flow, surface agitation is keep to a minimum to minimise gasing off. 😕

As per you earlier suggest previously as I haven’t any live stock, I’ve pretty much got co2 dailed way up. As suggested constant stream rather than bubbles in counter. I would up load a video but not at home now, there a few more notch so I could up it further thou.

No algae issues other than diatoms.

Is there anything I missing?..:bookworm:

Cheers.
 
Hello Kalum,

My substrate is ADA Amazonia used new, I started with a DSM for almost 3 months before flooding.

Apologies, I been away from this hobby for quite awhile so having to relearn everything again.

How would my substrate buffer my water ph, to such an extent that I can’t achieve much of a ph drop when co2 it turned on? 😕.
 
If everything is growing nice and there are no or few algea just keep it like this, if algae appear, lower the light intensity a bit. The pH drop you get will work, just not at full megawatt lightstrength.
Not getting the 1 point drop in soft water has to do with dissolving the CO2, but with adjusting the light it will work.
 
Hello Edvet,

Thanks.

That really interesting, despite the increase flow I’m may still not be getting sufficient dissolving of CO2.

Which would suggest moving the inline to intake and filter could improve this issue. Would also have the benefit of much clearer water when gas is on.😉

I have a dimmer installed on my ADA moonlights so can dim them further if required.

Cheers
 
Hi,
If your municipal supplier is United Utilities you can find the water report app and input your post code at their website https://www.unitedutilities.com/services/your-water-supply/drinking-water-quality/
Evidently the water in that area is moderately soft and usually, water that has a low General Hardness also has a low Carbonate Hardness (although they do not actually list the Carbonate/Bicarbonate or alkalinity).
If this is the case for your area then you should easily be able to drop the pH unless there is something in the tank that is adding alkalinity such as coral gravel or limestone ornaments etc.

As Edvert points out, if the plants are doing well then it's a non-issue as far as the pH drop goes but it is still important to understand the reasons you are unable to drop the pH.

The yellowing of the leaves is also a concern. Are you dosing NPK?
I was confused by your statement above that you were using "used new" Aquasoil? Not sure what that means. If it's new then it should contain plenty of Nitrates. If it's old then you'll need to add KNO3.

You can also try to move the injector to the inlet side of the filter and see if the filter can handle the bubbles.

You might have mentioned, but it's also not clear how you are distributing the flow, via spraybar or outlet spud?

You can pick up any KH test kit to get an idea of the water's alkalinity. I hate spending money on test kits but KH/GH/pH kits are the least objectionable of the lot.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
Hi,
If your municipal supplier is United Utilities you can find the water report app and input your post code at their website https://www.unitedutilities.com/services/your-water-supply/drinking-water-quality/
Evidently the water in that area is moderately soft and usually, water that has a low General Hardness also has a low Carbonate Hardness (although they do not actually list the Carbonate/Bicarbonate or alkalinity).
If this is the case for your area then you should easily be able to drop the pH unless there is something in the tank that is adding alkalinity such as coral gravel or limestone ornaments etc.

As Edvert points out, if the plants are doing well then it's a non-issue as far as the pH drop goes but it is still important to understand the reasons you are unable to drop the pH.

The yellowing of the leaves is also a concern. Are you dosing NPK?
I was confused by your statement above that you were using "used new" Aquasoil? Not sure what that means. If it's new then it should contain plenty of Nitrates. If it's old then you'll need to add KNO3.

You can also try to move the injector to the inlet side of the filter and see if the filter can handle the bubbles.

You might have mentioned, but it's also not clear how you are distributing the flow, via spraybar or outlet spud?

You can pick up any KH test kit to get an idea of the water's alkalinity. I hate spending money on test kits but KH/GH/pH kits are the least objectionable of the lot.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Hello Ceg,

Thank you for your input and taking the time to advise.

The substrate is ADA Amazonia and power sand, all brought new for this scape.

I am EI dosing purchased from aquarium plant foods, but not currently adding any KNO3 (as have read that UG dosen't like Nitrates), the UG was initially melting quite a bit when i first flooded tank but i think it was due the transitioning from emersed DSM to immersed over the last couple of weeks, however the melting seems to have reduce a lot now.

The other plants in the tank are Bucephalandra ‘Deep Purple, Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red and H. Pinnatifida, all which seem to be transitioning well and not showing any deficiency, no melting. However the Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red has loss a bit of the red colorization but i am running my LED's on a dimmer to keep light level low during the first month of so.

Filtration and flow is provided via a ADA ES600 filter, distributing via a stainless steel outlet, and as suggest i have added a mini submerged pump to increase flow.

upload_2018-2-9_20-13-17.png

Here's a photo of my tank taken a moment ago (co2 is off at this time), you'll note that i have positioned submerged mini pump so that it throws the water in the same direction of the filter outlet.

I actually was looking at the United Utilities website earlier today, as suggest by Foxfish to confirm my local parameters: As suggested my water is soft, so not sure why struggle so much to getting a 1 point drop in my ph, even after 7 hours of CO2 being turned on i'm getting only a .5/.6 drop in ph.

Here's a photo of my set up below the tank.

upload_2018-2-9_20-30-30.png

As suggested CO2 is diffused via an Up in-line diffuser, when it on I can't count the number of bps in the counter, its more of a constant stream.

All the visible hardscape is Seiryu stones, i also used some lava stone under substrate hardscape to create the height rather that just using the aqua soil alone, could this be these be adding alkalinity and preventing me achieving an 1 point ph drop?

I am now consider moving the diffuser to the intake side to feed Co2 directly to filter, hopefully this will improve my C02 dissolution. Thou will likely mean more maintenance to keep diffuser clean, so not massively keen on moving it if i don't need to. Also will this not harden my filter o ring over time? 😕

Cheers.
 

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With that type of inline and setup and water hardness you should be able to drop almost 2 full points in less than an hour if your maximally cranking the gas. Providing you are sure there are no leaks in the CO₂ line leading to the atomiser then the problem lies with the atomiser.

Unfortunately these types of inline are unreliable, even more so if it's the type you can dismantle for cleaning, I've been through three of these things, the plastic is prone to cracks from the pressure. The last type I had was the one you could dismantle, when this one was first set up I encountered the same issue as yourself in not being able to get required pH drop, the unit appears to work but I found the extra gas you add just gets blown out either between the ceramic and the water or between the ceramic and the hose end threads, to fix the leak I used PTFE gas tape around the threads to seal it up and I also used the tape on the ceramic at both ends to get a good seal between the air gap and the water (I did both because when I just did the threads first the extra gas pressure added went between the ceramic and straight into the water flowing through the hose as big bubbles).

There's a caveat to this fix, whilst I was able to fix mine first time this way another user on these forums did the same fix at my recommendation and the plastic parted at the hose side when he tightened the nut (user now using a Qanvee unit). I don't know how much PTFE was used in that case but I only used around 6 inches of tape.

Unit is now dead by the way, usual plastic cracks at the glued construction seals and on the face of the atomiser, I used epoxy to try to seal the unit but the plastic just parted at the hose when I screwed it back together after adding fresh PTFE to seal the threads and came apart as I was tightening the nut, same as other user found.

A Qanvee unit is my next go at inline when it arrives.
 
Thanks X3Nith,

The up diffuse was brought off ebay, so could have been a knock off one, thou in saying it seems to be working, no visible signs as cracks, it not one that can be easily dismantled, and seems to be sending out a really fine mist as far i can tell.

Will have a closer look at diffuser tomorrow, as it was new and seemed to be working didn't think to check closer.

I had a quick look and cant seem to find a store in uk that sells the Qanvee unit.

Cheers for suggestion thou.
 
This is what to look for.

24685216319_01ded20a84_k_d.jpg

This unit was used without issue for many months, performance would take a slight dip every now and then which would be evident as time to target pH drop extending over a period of a few days. The remedy for this was to clean the unit using a hose brush, function would return after this but then came the day that this didn't work, even cranking up the gas there was no change in performance. After lengthy troubleshooting and close inspection with a torch the above cracks were found. The replacement to this went the same way, they all went this way. PSI being used was between 20 and 30.

The Qanvee can be found on Amazon, it appears a far more robust construction and hopefully more resistant to ballooning under pressure (that's what the above damage is, material failure while ballooning under pressure), fingers crossed.
 
X3Nith,
="X3NiTH, post: 512754, member: 11958"]This is what to look for.

24685216319_01ded20a84_k_d.jpg

This unit was used without issue for many months, performance would take a slight dip every now and then which would be evident as time to target pH drop extending over a period of a few days. The remedy for this was to clean the unit using a hose brush, function would return after this but then came the day that this didn't work, even cranking up the gas there was no change in performance. After lengthy troubleshooting and close inspection with a torch the above cracks were found. The replacement to this went the same way, they all went this way. PSI being used was between 20 and 30.

The Qanvee can be found on Amazon, it appears a far more robust construction and hopefully more resistant to ballooning under pressure (that's what the above damage is, material failure while ballooning under pressure), fingers crossed.[/QUOTE]

Hello X3Nith,

That looks bad hope mine doesn't develop the same issue...🙁.

Today I moved my up atomiser to the inlet side, manage to get a slight improvement of a ph drop but still not manage to achieve the 1 point ph drop 🙁.

Guess I will need to play with injection rate, on the plus side now don't have the 7up look, I've noticed the occasional blurt of large co2 bubbles, but other that than crystal clear water.😎

I looked on Amazon and found the Qanvee m1 unit but not for sale unfortunately, I have however located it on eBay for £8 so pick one up.

Cheers
 
If everything is gas tight another issue for poor performance is condensation from water evaporating from the bubble counter or being physically forced through the tubing to the atomiser when the unit is first turned on after it has depressurised overnight, water or condensation has no way out than through the ceramic, slowing its performance, the fix for this is not to use any liquid in the bubble counter or not refilling it once the water is gone and then just used as a check valve, or omit the bubble counter and replace with a check valve to prevent water from the atomiser going back up the line and into the regulator.
 
Hello X3Nith,

Interesting never thought the condensation in the atomizer unit would reduce performance😵, my unit has loads of condensation each morning.

I guess i will turn gas on a little earlier then, but i still none the wiser why i can't achieve a 1 point ph drop even after gas has been on for over 7 hours🙁, with my soft water and even after moving inline to the intake side. :banghead:

I've order an KH testing kit on Ceg's advise, to check my tanks water's alkalinity, tho i never though i would ever see Ceg suggesting getting a testing kit given his distaste for them. 😉
 
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