A Long Start, another Iwagumi story

[NOWIS]

Hi
Your seiryu stone would be rasing your kh/gh
If u aren't doing full 50% water change weekly.
Adding co2 and seiryu rock is like a calcium reactor in a reef tank, co2 slowly dissolves the calcium and other minerals out of the stone.
This could partly affect you ph 1unit drop from happening.

 

[steveno]

Hello Simon or should i say Good Day😉.

Welcome to UKaps,

Thanks for the info, i do recall reading somewhere that seiryu rock effected water hardness, i actually doing 50% every 3/4 days at the moment given its a new setup.

I have just taken a ph reading of my tap water is 7ph, and as advise my tank ph before gas is turned on is 6.9/6.8 ph, so seems like something in my scape is actually lowering ph in tank, based on what you have just suggested i would expect my ph to increase slightly 😕.

I will be testing my KH and GH levels once kit arrives, later today.

Btw lovely avatar image is that one of your scapes?

Cheers

 

[steveno]

Hello,

I've just tested my tanks current KH level using API testing kit.

My tank's ph at the time of test was ph 6.2. (ph of tank is normally 6.8/9 when not being Co2 enriched).

My tank water having C02 turned on for 7 hours took 12 drops of API solution to change from blue to orange, this equates to 214.8 ppm (i tested twice to be sure).

Using a online calculator, suggest that my tank has a dissolved C02 ppm of 226.8 😵, can this be right?

I understand the recommendation is achieve 30ppm, lucky i didn't have any livestock in tank... 😱

Really confused now 😕, whats going on in my tank???

I assume i can dial back my CO2?

I also tested my tap water, KH ppm is only 35.8.

 

[NOWIS]

Hi steveno cheers for the welcome!
Ukaps has been great! So much quality info compared to other forums.
Yes that's my 700l not much of a scape but lots of happy plants
Just thought I'd mention the seiryu stone because I was so surprise of its affect on my tank (not a great rock for large tanks and small water changes like mine)
I think the new aquasoil is keeping your ph low even with your high kh.
Could u check your tap water kh with the new test kit to compare to aquarium water.
I think u have way to much co2 I would just work off the drop checker and not worry about 1.0 ph drop.
Just my thoughts I'm sure the professionals might say different?

 

[NOWIS]

Sorry just saw u tested tap water

 

[steveno]

Hello Simon,

I think your right, my drop check has been yellow for the last couple of days, but my ph readings were telling me another thing, for now i'm going to dial back my Co2 and ensure it that it green/light green by the time Co2 is turned on. To be fair my drop hasn't turn back to blue since i've put it in the tank, prob because i was injecting so much Co2 despite what my tanks ph drop or lack of it was suggested.

I will continue to monitor my ph along with KH testing to ensure that i have around 30 ppm of Co2, once I've got control of my Co2 injection rate and my UG has got a better foothold immersed i will start to consider about livestock.

Although i am keeping the initial diatoms in check with regular water changes, would like to add a clean up crew to assist me with some of the maintenance.

An aquasacpe isn't the same without any fish or shrimps.🙂

You should consider setting up a journal of your tank, a happy planted tank is always good to see.😉

Cheers

 

[NOWIS]

Good luck with it, I think u have it sorted. Your scape looks great! Nice layout of stones. Looking forward to seeing those red stems creep up from the back.

I would like to do a journal one day soon on a new diy 100x80x60 LxWxH cm but life is just to busy right now

 

[TomatoandEgg]

really like this tank its just right. hope your carpeting woes sort themselves out

 

[X3NiTH]

How are you testing the pH, if you use the titration method then you can vigorously shake the test tube to smash all the CO₂ out of the water and this reading would be what your equilibrium pH is you managed to gas off all added CO₂ out of the tank overnight, you can watch the colour change happen quite quickly.

I reckon your equilibrium pH should read above 8 for that KH and you're probably managing to drop the pH about 1.8 - 2 points (I've been there purposely using potassium bicarbonate). Your KH is rising because the carbonic acid is eating the CaCO3 in the stone and you're not seeing a blue drop checker in the morning because you're not efficiently off gassing CO₂ overnight.

Your atomiser is working as it should though!

Yeah I would dial back the gas a bit, a pH of about 6.9 is probably as far as you need to go for the current KH which is going to keep increasing because of the stone but less so if you remain near a neutral pH. You'll have a huge swing in KH at water change though if you're using tap to replace and you don't remineralise it to the same KH (some plants are not happy with changing conditions, notably Bucephalandra).

You will have to concentrate what the drop-checker is telling you and not what the pH is since that's now nearly meaningless as its only telling you what the pH is for the current KH which is rising due to the addition of CO₂ reacting with the stone. You can check the dropchecker is working by taking it out the tank and letting it equilibriate with the air, it should turn blue (aggitating it will make this happen faster).

When you get round to adding livestock they will quickly tell you what colour of drop checker they prefer.

🙂

 

[steveno]

Thanks Simon,

Looking forward to seeing those red stems creep up from the back.

The Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red are not so red now, they were super red during DSM, however after flooding they lost some of their redness but did grow quite tall quite quickly almost as tall the main stone but i pruned them and compacted them with clipping behind the main stone. This left me a bear space in the top left corner where i have planted some Rotala Vietnam H'ra, these are meant to produce nice orange/ red leaf in the right conditions, i only plant them last Friday so we'll see. Saw them being used in a scape that Jurijs was doing during one of George Farmers live video scapes. Finger cross they fill out can that lovely colorization as advertised by Tropica .

Hello Tomateandegg,

really like this tank its just right. hope your carpeting woes sort themselves out

Very kind of you say, the layout was meant to be a simple Iwagumi arrangement, I chose UG this time round as i never had much success creating a creating a carpet with it, particularly when i had Armano shrimp who would pull out any clumps i planted within a day. it's living up to it's reputation as a very difficult plant to carpet even without shrimp to tear it apart. With very shallow roots i should have used the fine aqua soil rather than the slightly cheaper normal sized aqua soil , its a constant battle to keep it rooted in the substrate , thou i do have quite a bit of flow, which this plant apparently also likes. Like i said it living up to this reputation.

Good Morning X3nith,
I'm using a ph pen, I calibrated it with some buffered ph 7 water to make sure it was giving the right reading. I've taken my drop check out of the tank as you have suggested, so will see later today if changes back to blue. While i was setting up the scape, i chose the cheaper option to use what ever stones i had laying around rather than getting some inert stone , i vaguely remembered that the seiryu rock would effect my water parameter, didn't expect or recall it effecting my water to this extent.

Yeah, it seems my inline atomizer is working correctly for the time being, but will certainly be keeping a closer eye on it now.,thou i have now picked up a Quavan M1 unit, so may gave that unit a ago once it arrives. Now that i have it injecting directly in to the filter, I'm really liking the mist free appearance, so going to keep it injecting in to the filter for the time being.

I'll will dial back my CO2 injection, but bps is subjective as every bubble counter is different, as suggested i will be using a combination of checking drop checker (once it's working) and continuing checking but ph and kh level to ensure i an around 30ppm of dissovle C02 just before and while Co2 is turned on. I rather get everything balanced and not test my tank water with live stock 😉.

Cheers Guys.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think your right, my drop check has been yellow for the last couple of days

OK, it is probably to just ignore the pH, online calculator and dKH test results. The drop checker results will be right, and can be relied upon. There is an explanation of why in <"Water testing">.

I'm using a ph pen, I calibrated it with some buffered ph 7 water to make sure it was giving the right reading.

If you want to use the pH pen you have to buy a proper pH7 buffer, and buffer the probe before every use. If the pen has two-point calibration? you need to buy both pH7 and pH4 buffers, and store the probe in the correct storage solution (usually 4M KCl). We make up the storage solution, but even in the lab. we buy the pH buffers in, they are too time consuming to make and pH results are meaningless without them.

The problem with pH is that it isn't a straight forward measurement once you get away from strong acid and strong base solutions.

My tank water having C02 turned on for 7 hours took 12 drops of API solution to change from blue to orange, this equates to 214.8 ppm

Using a online calculator, suggest that my tank has a dissolved C02 ppm of 226.8 😵, can this be right?

CO2 ~ carbonate equilibrium

You don't need to know the next bit, you can rely on the drop checker, but it helps if you are adding CO2.

The reasons for the strange dKH results are that when you add CO2 to water with some <"carbonate buffering"> you change the CO2~HCO3-~CO3--~pH equilibrium, which is based upon the ~400ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere, and the very small proportion of that CO2 that goes into solution as carbonic acid (H2CO3).

That carbonic acid then disassociates into H+ and HCO3- ions, and acids are defined as <"H+ ion donors">, <"so in pure water the pH would fall">. Limestone or "calcium carbonate" (CaCO3) is insoluble in water, but soluble in acids (it is a base or H+ ion acceptor), and at 400ppm CO2, any dKH in the water gives you a pH of ~pH8.

As you add elevated levels of CO2 more H+ ions go into solution and the pH falls. Some of the, formerly insoluble, CaCO3 goes into solution as Ca++ and CO3-- ions, which then convert to 2HCO3- ions (below pH8).



The graph is from <"Biogenic decalcification"> and this is what happens at 400ppm CO2, but for any other value of atmospheric CO2 you would get a different set of equilibrium values.

The <"pH/CO2 chart"> was experimentally defined for a basic solution (H+ ion acceptor) with a carbonate hardness of 4dKH. It can be used with <"a drop checker when you are adding CO2">, it can't be used for anything else.

cheers Darrel

 

[zgmarkozg]

very nice tank! 🙂

 

[David Shanahan]

Hello fellow Mancunian and ADA 60p owner. Living in Manchester I can tell you that my drop checkers are both of the green variety and I don’t really have too many issues. I have had some BBA in my 60p and a little Diatoms in my 30cm, but Not too much of either. I just turned the lights down a tad and turned up the Co2 a bit. All under control.

Tank looks great though. Hope you don’t suffocate anything.

Drop checker in picture. I get it lime green by lights out.

 

[steveno]

Hello Darrel,

Thank you for thorougher exploration, but if I'm completely honest i probably understood only about 50%, it could be that i have had quite a long day and my brain is completely fried 😵😕, probably not thou...lol

I actually purchased my ph 7 buffer awhile ago, my ph pen is also cheap one brought from amazon, so cant be sure if is me any giving any rouge readings, jsut as well you said i can...

ignore the pH, online calculator and dKH test results

As you have suggested I can rely on my drop checker, i wanted to check that it was working so took my drop checker out of tank in the morning before i went to work, came home to see that it had turned back to blue, thou i'm not sure how long it took to revert back. Tonight I have done a 60% water change and put drop check back in and it has stayed blue even after a few hours, which would seems right as not currently injecting any Co2.

very nice tank! 🙂

Thanks Zgmarkozg,
However it still far from where I am hoping to get to... 🙄

Cheers Planty,
Your scape looks great, i guess we both benefit from the lovely water we have up north.😉
As suggested my drop checker went light green/yellow and never reverted back to blue... 😱

Hope you don’t suffocate anything.

me too, probably would have if i had livestock in my tank. Fortunately I haven't rushed and loaded tank with any fish and shrimp yet,😀 thou I cant say i haven't thought about it, i would love to add some living stock but need to resist the urge until everything is balanced. Patience will win the day with UG....😎

Cheers guys

 

[X3NiTH]

It's probably worth using an airstone at night to gas off a significant amount of CO₂ so that the drop checker is blue by the start of the each injection period.

 

[steveno]

Thanks X3Nith,

I was actually thinking the same thing, i used to do the same in my previous scapes (a few years ago). Last night i was seeing if i could adjust the position of outlet or mini pump to create some more surface agitation, but due to design of both outlet and pump this was proving very difficult to achieve, so i guess i will having to install and airstone, i think i still got my air pump laying around somewhere. Thou I was trying to keep equipment in tank to a minimum. 🙁

I've also got an Twinstar installed, I know its still a on going discussion but dose this not super air-rate the water with micro bubbles?

Water change seems to have reset tank, the drop checker has remain blue, thou with a slightly green tinge.

 

[ceg4048]

Using a online calculator, suggest that my tank has a dissolved C02 ppm of 226.8 😵, can this be right?

Hi,

 

[ceg4048]

I've just tested my tanks current KH level using API testing kit.

My tank's ph at the time of test was ph 6.2. (ph of tank is normally 6.8/9 when not being Co2 enriched).

My tank water having C02 turned on for 7 hours took 12 drops of API solution to change from blue to orange, this equates to 214.8 ppm (i tested twice to be sure).

Using a online calculator, suggest that my tank has a dissolved C02 ppm of 226.8 😵, can this be right?

I understand the recommendation is achieve 30ppm, lucky i didn't have any livestock in tank... 😱

Really confused now 😕, whats going on in my tank???

I assume i can dial back my CO2?

I also tested my tap water, KH ppm is only 35.8.

Hello,
Like so many other hobbyist, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the pH/KH/CO2 chart. The chart, viewed outside of the context of our reality is meaningless and leads many people down the wrong path. As I mentioned to you before I do not like to suggest the purchase of any hobby grade test kit but in this case, pH, KH and GH use simple titration of acids which are predictable, however, most people really have no idea what pH, KH or GH actually are, so it is just as easy to be fooled by the test results as it is to be fooled by the data in the chart.

The first truth you need to realize is that KH test kit cannot actually measure KH. That's because the test's result of it's titration can be due, not only to Carbonate/Bicarbonate, but also due to Silicates, Borates, Phosphates, Sulfates, Hydroxide and even Ammonia as well as other organic alkaline substances.

So many times, the KH test kit lies to you because it is fooled by other substances in the water that it "thinks" is Carbonate.
other times, the KH test kit tells you the truth because these other substances are either absent from the water or are present only in negligible amounts.
Unfortunately, you never really know which case is your case, so you unwittingly plug the number into your chart and so garbage in equals garbage out, and that's one of the reasons your chart returns an absurd number.

Are you getting the picture yet? Test kits cannot be trusted. You must learn and understand what their limitations are and learn what information they are actually telling you. When you read the data on a chart you must have context as to what assumptions are being made in the charts presentation.
When you have this understanding you may then be able to find a way to use the data to your advantage without being outwitted by it.

The same pathetic events occur with other test kits such as Nitrogen and Phosphorous test kits. They are often fooled by other chemicals in the water, so they cannot really be trusted.

Further reading here:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...ng-ro-with-tap-water.51704/page-2#post-510813

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/60ltr-at-4bps.39305/page-2#post-510485

Cheers,

 

[David Shanahan]

My drop checker never turns blue. I don’t think it’s ever caused me any issues.

 

[steveno]

Hello Ceg,
You're are right I don't fully understand the numbers or the science behind it, even after both yours and Darrel thorougher explanation, true be told I didn't actually believe the results i got using the on line calculator, hence why i was questioning it. To be far i hadn't actually planned on purchasing any testing kit, been a lurker here long enough and read enough post to know that test kit are not to be trusted on face value, I only did so at your suggestion, and i was hoping you might be able to intrepid my readings.

Like many people, I've joined this forum for inspiration, and posted not to receive compliment, more rather to gain a better understanding, learn and get advise from people who are much more knowledgeable, like yourself and others who have kindly taken the time to offer their views and advise.

Thanks for the links you have provided, it very much appreciated, i will take a look.

Hey Planty,
That's good to know, to be fair if i recall correctly in my previous scapes i did always struggle to get the drop checker to revert back to being blue, and i managed to the keep both fish and shrimp without any issues.

Cheers