3000 Liter High Tech Planted Tank

[RickyV]

Cherry shrimp and Amano's should be fine with the standard 30ppm target.

That's great, I figured they would be but I wanted to make sure.

Yes, I have them in mine. Their babies are a useful food source, and bring out the hunting instinct in some species - my Chocolate Gourami spend ages hunting for them in amongst the moss and plants.

Be warned though, once you add them , you'll have them forever - they're virtually indestructible. As long as you have fish that will hunt the young ones though, their population won't get too high, and they're also not as prolific with CO2 injection I've found. In low tech without any predators though, they can get to numbers that look like something out of a horror movie!

That's good to know the fish do like them! Also good to know they are hardy. They will have so much room to reproduce in the 600lbs of lava rock. Will be so fun to watch the fish hunting and exploring in this tank.

 

[Wookii]

That's great, I figured they would be but I wanted to make sure.

One thing I should mention though, is it is worth taking time to acclimate them to the CO2 levels - same goes for the fish. Drip acclimate all shrimp and fish in a bucket for several hours anyway before introducing to a tank to get them used to the chaange in water parameters, but I'd also kill the CO2 for the first day they are in the tank, and then gradually increase it back to previous levels over the course of a few days to allow them to acclimatise slowly to the CO2 levels.

 

[MichaelJ]

'm not familair with these, but I vaguely remember that @MichaelJ was looking to get some, and may offer some insights on compatibility.

I never got the Dwarf Mexican cray fish unfortunately. They would definitely go after my shrimplets and juvenile dwarf shrimps and thats what kept me from making the commitment as I would have had to move the crayfish out of the tank as they grow out and my other tank (without shrimps) and super soft water wouldn't be a suitable environment for them.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[RickyV]

I never got the Dwarf Mexican cray fish unfortunately. They would definitely go after my shrimplets and juvenile dwarf shrimps and thats what kept me from making the commitment as I would have had to move the crayfish out of the tank as they grow out and my other tank (without shrimps) and super soft water wouldn't be a suitable environment for them.

Cheers,
Michael

This is something I've been thinking about. I wonder if the tank is big enough that the crayfish wouldn't pose a big enough threat to the shrimps. What gave me the idea was this tank right here with all the shrimps and dwarf crayfish living together This tank is twice as big as the one on the video.

 

[Simon Cole]

African filter shrimp/bamboo shrimp?

How about the Vampire shrimp Atya gabonensis ?

 

[RickyV]

How about the Vampire shrimp Atya gabonensis ?

I believe the African filter shrimp and the vampire shrimp refer to Atya gabonensis. But I would definitely love to have this shrimp in the tank as well.

 

[Simon Cole]

People say that African filter shrimp are incredibly well protected, although both will be vulnerable when they shed their shells. I have also heard it said that the African filter shrimp can dislodge hardscape and create cave dwellings. I would also consider checking for any burrowing habits of the crayfish. Also, the African filter shrimp quite possibly offer an opportunity for you to be the first person in the world to breed them, I believe... but I am happy to be corrected. My recommendation is to consider the <Malawa shrimp> Caridina pareparensis parvidentata. They are rumoured to be a quite superb alternative to the Amano shrimp, they consume far more algae than Red cherry shrimp, and they breed freely in a wide range of water conditions. We cannot get them over here in the UK. You could be harvesting hundreds each month and passing them on, as I reckon they are also about to explode in popularity in the USA. You could give them away to the visitors, or trade for rare plants (I am trying to import them). Also, since this is a fairly long term set-up, it might be worth considering the <River nerite> Theodoxus fluviatilis ; a species that breeds reliably in freshwater. Perhaps this might require a wee collecting trip, but might well find something similar in a watercourse on your side of the pond. Both could save you a fortune in the long-run, and risk less in terms of introducing a new disease through having to restock.
Can I just say... Astounding. We are all 100% behind you

 

[RickyV]

People say that African filter shrimp are incredibly well protected, although both will be vulnerable when they shed their shells. I have also heard it said that the African filter shrimp can dislodge hardscape and create cave dwellings

They will have plenty of places to hide if they need to since the big concrete rock structure is hollow. Also cant imagine messing with hardscape too much as even I struggled to move that piece of wood! lol

Also, the African filter shrimp quite possibly offer an opportunity for you to be the first person in the world to breed them

Wow that would be very very cool! I wonder however if the CO2 environment may prevent that from happening. I am honestly considering decreasing the total pH drop to 0.9 as this should give me 15 -24 ppm CO2, just to make sure everything is happier. But at the same time the tank is so big that I am sure there are plenty of low CO2 spots for livestock to hang out in if they need to.

My recommendation is to consider the <Malawa shrimp> Caridina pareparensis parvidentata. They are rumoured to be a quite superb alternative to the Amano shrimp, they consume far more algae than Red cherry shrimp, and they breed freely in a wide range of water conditions.

Thanks for the suggestion! I have never heard of these shrimps and these do seem like a great alternative to the amanos. The one thing I don't like about amanos is they cant reproduce in our tanks. Seems like they would do great in the higher pH water of this tank.

Also, since this is a fairly long term set-up, it might be worth considering the <River nerite> Theodoxus fluviatilis ; a species that breeds reliably in freshwater.

Those are very neat! I will look more into them.

Can I just say... Astounding. We are all 100% behind you

Thank you!

 

[RickyV]

Here is the tank a week and a half later after setting up. So far doing good. All of the plants are growing a bunch despite the tank having relatively underpowered lights for such a deep tank. I have started noticing some diatoms and staghorn, however it's been exclusively growing on the old emerged growth. I've also noticed so many malaysian trumpet snails which I'm assuming came with the plants. I'm pretty happy about them. Hopefully I can also add some ramshorns later.

I've also noticed what looks like iron deficiency on some plants. Luckily it's only happening in a few spots near the top where the light is the brightest. I'm guessing it must be Fe deficiency considering the pH is 8.0 degassed. I drop it to 7.0 during the photoperiod.

It's especially bad on that amazon sword that's growing almost white.

This is the dosing regimen.
Dosed once a week after water change.
Macronutrients:
NO3 : 8 ppm (40 grams of KNO3)
PO4 : 2 ppm (9 grams of KH2PO4)
K : 11 ppm (34 grams of K2SO4)

Split into three dosed on MWF
Micronutrients:
Fe Gluconate: 0.1 ppm (3grams)
Fe DTPA 11%: 0.1ppm (3grams)

(12 grams of Planted CSM+B Adds Below)
Fe EDTA: 0.25 ppm
Mn:0.074 ppm
Cu:0.004 ppm
Mg:0.015 ppm
Mo:0.002 ppm
B:0.032 ppm
dGH: 0.013

 

[Wookii]

Looks to be growing well.

The Chlorosis can be a number of things. Iron being the immediate candidate, but also potentially Mg, and potentially Mn (@Hufsa may be able to advise on the last one given the levels you are dosing).

Are you adding Mg along with the Ca to remineralise the RO water? I also assume you are not adding any carbonates as part of the remineralisation given how much of the stuff the concrete is leaching?

Iron may be an issue with your high night time pH, when you're hitting 8.0pH you heading towards the upper limit even for DTPA:



When do you dose your micros? It would be ideal to dose them daily, rather than three times a week, as it will reduce the duration of periods where iron might not be available to the plants at all.

It's also best to dose the micros once the CO2 injection has been turned on and brought the pH down - to preserve the chelation as long as possible - but also before lights on, to give the plants chance to absorb some before the light starts to break the DTPA also. EDDHA Iron is also another option for your mix given its resistance to high pH.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I've also noticed what looks like iron deficiency on some plants. Luckily it's only happening in a few spots near the top where the light is the brightest. I'm guessing it must be Fe deficiency considering the pH is 8.0 degassed.

We have <"a few threads"> with new growth chlorosis <"in Rotala rotundifolia">. I'd try a different chelator for iron (Fe).


cheers Darrel

 

[RickyV]

Are you adding Mg along with the Ca to remineralise the RO water? I also assume you are not adding any carbonates as part of the remineralisation given how much of the stuff the concrete is leaching?

Yes I forgot to add I am dosing 5 ppm MgSO4 after the water change. But not adding any carbonates or calcium. The concrete is currently contributing about 6 dKH and 40's ppm calcium.

When do you dose your micros? It would be ideal to dose them daily, rather than three times a week, as it will reduce the duration of periods where iron might not be available to the plants at all.

I try dosing them right when the lights finished ramping up and pH is lowest. Thats a good idea I'm going to try splitting the dose in 5.

but also before lights on, to give the plants chance to absorb some before the light starts to break the DTPA also

Maybe I can try dosing right when the lights begin to ramp. The pH does drop 0.8 - 0.9 by this time. I currently turn the CO2 30 minutes before the lights start ramping and the lights ramp up to full brightness in 30 minutes.

EDDHA Iron is also another option for your mix given its resistance to high pH.

I might have to try this chelator. I've been put off from using it on my personal tank from the color tint I hear it causes. I'm going to try splitting the micros in 5 and doubling the DTPA and gluconate dose to see if that helps.

It is only a few spots that are growing plants like this. I'll take some more pictures of all the plants next time I see the tank.

 

[Wookii]

Yes I forgot to add I am dosing 5 ppm MgSO4 after the water change.

Is that 5ppm MgSO4, or 5ppm Mg resulting from dosing MgSO4? 5ppm Mg should be fine, but 5ppm MgSO4 would only contain about 1ppm Mg which wouldn't be enough.

You could always try increasing the Mg dose to 10ppm Mg just to see if it changes the chlorosis.

Maybe I can try dosing right when the lights begin to ramp. The pH does drop 0.8 - 0.9 by this time. I currently turn the CO2 30 minutes before the lights start ramping and the lights ramp up to full brightness in 30 minutes.

You really want the pH drop to have completed before the lights come on, so if you set your CO2 to come on half an hour earlier it would also give you chance to distribute the micros in darkness. It might not make any difference, but might just be enough to get some iron to the plants.

I'm not sure how long it takes chelates to degrade in either light or pH beyond their range, perhaps @dw1305 or @X3NiTH know

Thats a good idea I'm going to try splitting the dose in 5.

I'd split it in 7 if you can - if you are adding it manually, I'd consider an auto doser - it takes the effort out of it a little.

I've been put off from using it on my personal tank from the color tint I hear it causes.

I've not used it myself, but it does apparently give some tint to the water, but I wouldn't suggest that's the only iron source you dose, I'd maybe just use it as a small proportion of the total to give some extra iron availability through the photo period - in which case the tint effect should be more minimal.

I'm going to try splitting the micros in 5 and doubling the DTPA and gluconate dose to see if that helps.

That's worth trying too - though I would try daily dosing for a week before increasing it - I wouldn't normally suggest going above 0.5ppm in total for Fe, but we may need to assume that a lot of the EDTA is being affected by the pH. If anything I'd be inclined to increase the CSM+B dose in case it is an Mn deficiency issue. It is a shame you can't get CSM+B without iron included, or with DTPA chelated iron instead of EDTA, as that would be ideal.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm not sure how long it takes chelates to degrade in either light or pH beyond their range, perhaps @dw1305 or @X3NiTH know

I don't, @X3NiTH may.

I've not used it myself, but it does apparently give some tint to the water, but I wouldn't suggest that's the only iron source you dose, I'd maybe just use it as a small proportion of the total to give some extra iron availability through the photo period - in which case the tint effect should be more minimal.

@Zeus. said this <"How long EDTA/DTPA micros last in soft water ?">.

With practice I ended up dosing it so there was just the slightest hint of pink, slightest hint of pink indicating FeEDDHA was present and available

I use rainwater, so FeEDTA works fine for me, but if I had to use harder, more alkaline water, I'd use FeEDDHA and the <"pink tint"> method.

cheers Darrel

 

[xZaiox]

I might have to try this chelator. I've been put off from using it on my personal tank from the color tint I hear it causes.

I'm unsure if you have easy access to it in Texas, but I'm using EDDHSA (link). I've spent far too much time messing around with iron chelates, months each with EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA and now EDDHSA. I find the EDDHSA is vastly superior to the others, and it doesn't stain the water at all in reasonable concentrations. I'm currently dosing 0.15ppm per week and the plants are growing fine. I dosed up to 1ppm before, and it only started to slightly tint the water at that concentration, but it's nowhere near the amount that EDDHA tints the water.

 

[MichaelJ]

I'm unsure if you have easy access to it in Texas, but I'm using EDDHSA (link).

EDDHSA chelated Iron should be readily available in the US. I can't recommend a specific product though.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[RickyV]

Is that 5ppm MgSO4, or 5ppm Mg resulting from dosing MgSO4?

Oh right I meant 5 ppm Mg from MgSO4.

You really want the pH drop to have completed before the lights come on, so if you set your CO2 to come on half an hour earlier it would also give you chance to distribute the micros in darkness

I'll be trying this and dosing micros in the dark to see if it helps.

I'd split it in 7 if you can - if you are adding it manually, I'd consider an auto doser - it takes the effort out of it a little.

An autodoser will indeed help with the daily dosing, I'll try to get something setup.

I find the EDDHSA is vastly superior to the others, and it doesn't stain the water at all in reasonable concentrations. I'm currently dosing 0.15ppm per week and the plants are growing fine.

Interesting I have not heard of this chelator, I will look into it and see if I can obtain some. The lack of tint is perfect.

 

[RickyV]

Trimming tongs for reaching the bottom lol.

 

[RickyV]

I have been thinking about an alternative to the dosing pumps. What if I added the weekly dose of micros/iron into a container that would constantly drip into the tank? This way the plants have a constant source of iron 24/7. I guess it's possible I would be adding so little at a time it would precipate too fast to get to the plants?

 

[_Maq_]

Reaction (precipitation) kinetics are strongly dependent on concentration. In other words, the more diluted the slower reactions.
Yet keep in mind this rule is valid for both reagents. So, if iron is diluted and another compound tending to react with iron is abundant, the reaction will occur quickly.