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A reflection - putting it all into one scape

Hi all,
Follow the journal!
I definitely will. I'm really interested in what happens and the time scale for thoser changes to take place. I'm guessing that eventually you will have really good plant growth, but possibly not for all plants and probably not for a fair time yet.

If people <"don't try different things"> we are never going to know where the boundaries lie, it is back to <"Karl Popper"> .
....Thus, in Popper’s words, science requires testability: “If observation shows that the predicted effect is definitely absent, then the theory is simply refuted.” This means a good theory must have an element of risk to it. It must be able to be proven wrong under stated conditions.........
It has to be linked to their ability to use light.
I would guess that it will in that the <turned up to eleven"> plants will be <"high light plants">, but you can also have high light plants that are adapted to very low nutrient conditions, so it isn't the whole story.
If I had low light, I’d bet the whole thing would be an ammonia soup and filled with death. But the light gives the plants who have higher metabolism the ability to use the ammonia at such high levels to grow.
Quite possibly. A floating plant, with <"high potential growth rate">, would have been / would be interesting. @castle had some <"large Amazon Frogbit plants"> where they rooted into a <"nutrient rich substrate">.

cheers Darrel
 
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Hi all,
I can't keep up with this thread, but yes exactly this.
You did, but that's still not at the levels that floating plants (that I think Darrel was referring to) have access to, and are adapted to use, which is in excess of 400ppm. Floating plants, probably because of this adaptation, have the ability to suck up nitrogen like a sponge.

In my previous higher light tanks that have had a good layer of floating plants, I have had to dose 1.5 times EI levels of KNO3, and even then longer run equilibrium levels of NO3 still ran below 10ppm simply because the floating plants were sucking it up at such a rate, and generating so much additional mass that I was throwing away a 2 litre jug full of them every week.

cheers Darrel
 
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I don't think the light levels would have made any difference to overall ammonia levels in the water column, your plant mass is simply no where near high enough for that to happen, and for the small amount of plant growth to make any real difference on levels. What helped were your high percentage (twice daily?) levels of water changes.
I mean ... that's why I did them :).
On a mature tank this might be valid - you have sudden excess ammonia, you crank the lights, and the stems increase their growth rate and suck up the ammonia, and you have to trim and dump a few extra litres of plant mass each week, but in your tank I don't think you've hit the first trim point yet have you?
Not yet ... but the growth is begining to explode - for the stems.
You did, but that's still not at the levels that floating plants (that I think Darrel was referring to) have access to, and are adapted to use, which is in excess of 400ppm. Floating plants, probably because of this adaptation, have the ability to suck up nitrogen like a sponge.

In my previous higher light tanks that have had a good layer of floating plants, I have had to dose 1.5 times EI levels of KNO3, and even then longer run equilibrium levels of NO3 still ran below 10ppm simply because the floating plants were sucking it up at such a rate, and generating so much additional mass that I was throwing away a 2 litre jug full of them every week.

We've run ourselves into this: I did lots of water changes so I don't have lots of ammonia. Everything melted because of ammonia. My tests show nowhere near ammonia levels that should melt the MC like it is. So what is going on?

Interesting - so you're seeing Nitrite levels in tank then? You used a mature filter though didn't you? That would seem to confirm your tank is cycling afresh, and there has been amass die off of the existing biological assemblage.
I did not. My filter has an old sponge and some media ... all the media was sprayed in tap water and left out for quite some time before I got to it. Very little of anything in my filter.
So what's going on with the Phosphate? If we assume the test kit is accurate enough for a rough estimate, this looks close to zero, but aren't you still dosing 1ppm per week? I'd be surprised if there is enough plant mass to soak that up yet - so you may need to revisit your dosing calcs?
I dose 1ppm per water change (and .1 daily). I don't plan to change my water column targets. There is no sign of any deficiency on any plant that is growing.
 
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I dose 1ppm per water change. I don't plan to change my water column targets. There is no sign of any deficiency on any plant that is growing.

That's fair enough, but what I meant is, 'if' the test is accurate, and you are dosing 1ppm at each water change (I'm assuming that's 1ppm of tank volume, not 1ppm of water change volume), you should have a significantly more still in your water column than the test suggests, no?

So my query was not whether you need to change your target, but whether your are actually dosing the 1ppm you think you are, or if an error might have crept in?
 
That's fair enough, but what I meant is, 'if' the test is accurate, and you are dosing 1ppm at each water change (I'm assuming that's 1ppm of tank volume, not 1ppm of water change volume), you should have a significantly more still in your water column than the test suggests, no?
Unless it’s being used?
So my query was not whether you need to change your target, but whether your are actually dosing the 1ppm you think you are, or if an error might have crept in?
I mean, I weighed it all out and made the dosing solution. If there are any issues that do creep in, I’ll probably just dose a bit more of a bit less of my solution.

100% I didn’t use a magnifying glass and go to 3 decimal points 😊.

I will add that I am changing water now only once every three ish days. Not daily or twice daily anymore.
 
Unless it’s being used?

By what? How often are you changing the water (and therefore dosing the 1ppm)? I could be wrong, but I don't think there is enough plant mass being generated to use that much phosphate - some folks are running mature tanks on less.

I mean, I weighed it all out and made the dosing solution. If there are any issues that do creep in, I’ll probably just dose a bit more of a bit less of my solution.

100% I didn’t use a magnifying glass and go to 3 decimal points 😊.

That's fair enough if you're happy its correct, I was just pointing it out as a possible issue, and its another interesting observational point.

Perhaps the phosphate is precipitating out (seems unlikely), or the test kit is off the mark (possibly most likely), or there may be some other reason for phosphate level reduction that's above my pay grade?
 
By what? How often are you changing the water (and therefore dosing the 1ppm)? I could be wrong, but I don't think there is enough plant mass being generated to use that much phosphate - some folks are running mature tanks on less.
Sorry added this to the top. Every 3ish days. I recall in my first ever dark start, I dosed phosphate like 5 ppm and then tested daily with zero plants ... it declined all the way to zero? CEC of soil?
Isnt there a bunch of new soil in this tank as well? Thats where the phosphate is going
2 of the big bags. And probably 8 inches of old, enhanced soil.
That's fair enough if you're happy its correct, I was just pointing it out as a possible issue, and its another interesting observational point.
:) is a good point actually - compounded error.
Perhaps the phosphate is precipitating out (seems unlikely), or the test kit is off the mark (possibly most likely), or there may be some other reason for phosphate level reduction that's above my pay grade?
Good points -- as possibilities - but I agree with you about unlikely.
 
Isnt there a bunch of new soil in this tank as well? Thats where the phosphate is going

Could be - good point - though I'm not sure how long it takes for the soil CEC to be used up and there has likely been a lot of nutrient release from the fert balls. I also have a vague recollection of soils preferentially took up cations rather than anions, and phosphate is the latter I believe, but this is well above my pay grade and something for @dw1305
 
so what caused the Monte Carlo to melt? These ammonia and nitrite levels aren’t very high to cause this much damage … .

If it is adaptation … then why the stems don’t suffer the same melt?

Only difference is light capability - or what am I missing?

The ammonia levels are likely much higher at the soil level, and the top layer of soil, where the plants are, than they are at the top of the tap where you sampled from - given the substrate is the source of the ammonia. That, along with the CO2 levels (and the jelly lol) could have affected the first batch. For this second batch who knows, maybe the ammonia is still too high for it in the top layer of soil, or maybe its just a matter of transitioning from the invitro state to mew submerged growth?

As the other guys have pointed out above, you can't necessarily compare the response of two very different plants - its an apples and oranges comparison, all you can really do is compare the same plant in two different environments. If you think its a response to light, maybe try and partially shade some of it somehow to test the theory?
 
Could be - good point - though I'm not sure how long it takes for the soil CEC to be used up and there has likely been a lot of nutrient release from the fert balls. I also have a vague recollection of soils preferentially took up cations rather than anions, and phosphate is the latter I believe, but this is well above my pay grade and something for @dw1305
The ability for new aquasoil to take up significant amounts of phosphate is relatively known, I have read several journals over at TPT where they had to dose significant amounts of phosphate to counteract the effect of new soil. These were EI users, so they wanted to have some phosphate available in the water column at all times. I can try to find the journals later today if needed, but im personally quite convinced that this is where Josh's phosphate is going. From what I remember (and my memory is not always that great), the phosphate effect lasted a couple months or something like that.
 
The ammonia levels are likely much higher at the soil level, and the top layer of soil, where the plants are, than they are at the top of the tap where you sampled from - given the substrate is the source of the ammonia. That, along with the CO2 levels (and the jelly lol) could have affected the first batch. For this second batch who knows, maybe the ammonia is still too high for it in the top layer of soil, or maybe its just a matter of transitioning from the invitro state to mew submerged growth?
First batch - absolutely - I intentionally tried to do everything “poorly”. Still no purigen or carbon in filter. Except for water changes.

Second batch: co2 was fixed. Soil was more offgassed. TDS constant. Ferts constant. Light constant. Jelly removed properly. Water changes not daily but every other, using visual cues etc as indicator. Flow/turnover is bang on, so I don’t know how large the difference is from top to bottom … surely non-zero but enough to massacre an entire species and not another?

The transition - also agree. If it bounces back will be the true indicator.
As the other guys have pointed out above, you can't necessarily compare the response of two very different plants - its an apples and oranges comparison, all you can really do is compare the same plant in two different environments. If you think its a response to light, maybe try and partially shade some of it somehow to test the theory?
I think we can agree that fert regimes and poor distribution linked to co2 show this variance in nearly every single tank. But I haven’t seen a tank show this with light.

I can’t find an HC cup or I would’ve bought one.
 
Hi all,
I also have a vague recollection of soils preferentially took up cations rather than anions, and phosphate is the latter I believe,
Phosphate is an anion, PO4--- and Anion Exchange Capacity (AEC) does differ from Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) in that it is usually a <"greater effect in acidic conditions">, while <"CEC is usually stronger in basic situations">.

In the same way you have a sequence of how strongly held cations are dependent upon their valency, you have <"a series for anions">. Clay minerals will hold PO4--- ions and these may, or may not, become available again. The reason for this is that phosphate adsorption and availability is pH dependent, but unfortunately not in a linear manner.
.......... Among various anions, the exchangeable phosphate is of most importance since sulphates or nitrates are not retained in sufficient quantities. So the phenomenon of anion exchange is most important for the release of fixed phosphate in the soil and thereby increases its availability to plants. The anion exchange is carried out mainly by the replacement of OH- ions of the clay minerals.
The reaction is as follows:
clay_micellePO4.jpg

Such type of phosphate adsorption renders phosphate unavailable to plants. Since the anion exchange is reversible phenomenon a part of the adsorbed phosphate ions again become readily available when soils are dominated with OH ions i.e. means under high pH conditions (may be induced with liming).
....The origin of OH- ions is from silicate clay minerals and hydrous oxides of iron and aluminium that are present in the soil.
clay_micelleAl_PO4.jpg
In this reaction takes place under slightly acidic soil conditions, the exchange phenomenon is reversible, and soluble phosphate is further released when hydroxy phosphate compound (insoluble) comes in contact with OH- ions.
clay_micelleAl_PO4_lowpH.jpg
In this reaction occurs under moderate to strong acid conditions, the phosphate ions are irreversibly fixed and not available to plants.
I tend not to worry too much about phosphate deficiency, because plants are very good at shuffling it around and, even though it is a macro-nutrient, <"plants need to run out all together"> before you get real growth problems. As soon as it becomes available again? Growth resumes.

Because PO4--- forms a lot of <"insoluble compounds"> you can always remove it from the water column, but it will take a while before deficiencies show. The vendors of <"Rowaphos">,"Phosban", "Phosguard" etc know that it takes a while for deficiencies to show, so can carry on peddling their wares to the, initially delighted, freshwater fish keeper.
On a separate note. My tap water is very soft and over the past few months I’ve been dosing with AV carbonate/JBL Aquadur to raise hardiness which seems to have been fine. I think my tap water is pretty much okay except it has exceptionally high levels of silicates and phosphates and my LFS advised the two products phosguard and silicatex in order to try and reduce them to manageable levels. They’ve now advised I use RO water as it’s a cheaper way to manage those two levels rather than repeatedly buying silicatex every 2 weeks at £20.
It also allows them to sell a phosphate test kit etc. and you then have the repeat sales of both PO4--- remover and test kit, add in a "pH buffer" and a fertiliser containing PO4--- as well? You can sell punter the phosphate remover, the buffer, the test kit and the fertiliser and they will work together to extract <"an ever increasing amount of money"> to solve a "problem" that <"never existed in the first place">.

cheers Darrel
 
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Yeah my bet is on the soil just being too rich with ammonia at the moment for the MC tissue culture. Water changes definitely help mitigate the issue of ammonia being leaked into the water column, but until the substrate’s cooled off a bit/it’s bacterial population has been established I think it’s mostly inevitable that a fresh ammonia-rich substrate will cook certain plants, especially in tissue culture form like possibly the MC. I know UG and hottonia melt in fresh ammonia rich aquasoil. How to grow Utricularia graminifolia Going Dutch with Aquasoil
 
Yeah my bet is on the soil just being too rich with ammonia at the moment for the MC tissue culture. Water changes definitely help mitigate the issue of ammonia being leaked into the water column, but until the substrate’s cooled off a bit/it’s bacterial population has been established I think it’s mostly inevitable that a fresh ammonia-rich substrate will cook certain plants, especially in tissue culture form like possibly the MC. I know UG and hottonia melt in fresh ammonia rich aquasoil. How to grow Utricularia graminifolia Going Dutch with Aquasoil
It’s not that I’m not with you. But it’s MC … kicking myself a bit as I couldn’t find an HC cup …. I’ve never heard of many people melting MC even from startup. Just based on the hardiness, it seems that if MC died, then the rest should have. But that’s just a thought.

I guess we’ll wait to see if it bounces back I’ll try to source an HC cup.

All rotalas and ludwigia have survived.
 
It's been really interesting to see the effects of excessive CO2 dosing to be honest. Up until seeing this, the conventional wisdom has been that in the absence of livestock, there is no upper ceiling for CO2 dosing - "run your drop checker yellow". You've shown here that there is a negative impact from running it too high, both on plant growth and biological system health - so setting a reasonable and stable level from day 1 is even more crucial.
This is a LONG way from proving that there is a negative impact from running CO2 at high levels. I can say in all my years I have never seen such a correlation in mine or any other tank. Once this tank stabilizes and matures is the time to start testing theories. Right now there is so much going on making any conclusions is like throwing darts.
 
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I can say in all my years I have never seen such a correlation in mine or any other tank.

Maybe, but then I doubt you, or many other people have ran CO2 levels anywhere near to those Josh was using. We're not just talking 'high levels' here - I'm a CO2 user and have ran CO2 well into yellow drop checker territory when I've been livestock free without issue - we're talking extreme levels of CO2 here - Josh churned through 10lbs of CO2 in a week.

Unfortunately he wasn't able to take any pH measurements, but I'd wager he will into several hundred PPM of dissolved CO2.
 
Think what @GreggZ post is a good point not stabilizing and a lot going on. Maybe @JoshP12 two identical tanks together same plants and fertilisers but one with a dark start would see a different result maybe for the monte Carlo?
 
It was a lot of co2. And the arcuata showed improvements immediately after pulling off.

Think what @GreggZ post is a good point not stabilizing and a lot going on. Maybe @JoshP12 two identical tanks together same plants and fertilisers but one with a dark start would see a different result maybe for the monte Carlo?
Dark start is the way to go - I think almost always.


Regardless of what “we want to pull from the experience”, I’ll never run that high of co2 at startup again. And I rarely say I wouldn’t do that again. A yellow drop checker is “fine”, but how yellow? mine was beyond yellow. Those levels are unnecessary and seeing the arcuata correct almost immediately in response is good enough for me.

Also seeing the rotalas have no Ill effects illustrates species specific stuff.
 
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