Andrew Lindsay
Member
Thanks for the foregoing comments. One more question: If the plants are pearling does that mean, in theory, they are getting more light intensity exposure than is actually necessary?
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Using CO2 and some plants still melting
- Thread starter Andrew Lindsay
- Start date
Edvet
Member
Pearling means there is more oxygen produced then the water can dissolve, don''t get hung up on trying to achieve that, or mistake it for meaning everything is OK. It's nice but not conclusive.
Andrew Lindsay
Member
Follow up: Now reduced lighting and dosing weekly Kalium Potassium in addition to daily shots of CO2. Supermarket "All in one" fertilizer. I do approx. 15% water change each week. Plants on bogwood are doing well but some in substrate are still failing. Please look at this example which is rotting/melting from the middle! any ideas why? Thanks
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Hi all,
You should be able to get values from your water supplier.
cheers Darrel
Are the new leaves pale and yellow, rather than green? and do you know how hard your water is?
You should be able to get values from your water supplier.
cheers Darrel
Andrew Lindsay
Member
New leaves are healthy as far I can see. Older leaves lower down still melt on some plants. According to STW my water supply is 'Hard'
Andrew Lindsay
Member
New leaves are healthy as far I can see. Older leaves lower down still melt on some plants. According to STW my water supply is 'Hard'
Andrew Lindsay
Member
Now procured a basic electronic pH meter and the reading is 6.7/6.8 -The plants continue to melt (except those growing on bogwood). I've even turned the light down lower. What more do pants need that the light, CO2, Ferts. and water changes I am providing them with? I am Just about ready to give up, I've wasted too much money on this!
Edvet
Member
basically nothing, just maintenance and patience
lazybones51
Member
I don't want to high jack this thread, however i've got some Staurogyne which has very pale leaves (apart from that it seems fine and is growing), I also live in a very hard water area. What's the correlation?
Hi all,
Plants with iron deficiency have small and yellow new leaves, because iron isn't mobile within the plant. Have a look at <"Rotala rotundifolia growth issues">
The other potential issue is that a large amount of Ca++ ions in solution can interfere with the uptake of other cations, and particularly magnesium (Mg++) and potassium (K+). This is just a numbers game, when an ion diffuses across the cell membrane is is much more likely to be a Ca++ ion, purely because most of the cations in solution are Ca++ ions.
Shortages of K+ and Mg ++ ions will show up in older leaves, because these elements are mobile within the plant and the plant will move them to the new and most photosynthetically active leaves.
Plants need a lot of potassium, it is one of the macro-elements, and shortages show by yellow older leaves, often with "pin holes" in them. Plants don't need as much magnesium, but it is the central atom of the chlorophyll molecule, and if there isn't sufficient older leaves are yellow.
You should be able to find plenty of images of Hygrophila pinnatifida, H. polysperma etc. <"showing deficiency symptoms">.
cheers Darrel
Plants that naturally grow in hard (calcium (Ca) rich) water have adaptations that allow them to use <"bicarbonate as a carbon source"> and to very efficiently sequester ions that may be in short supply, like iron (Fe+++). Plants don't need much iron, but most iron compounds are insouble in hard water, and at high pH.
Plants with iron deficiency have small and yellow new leaves, because iron isn't mobile within the plant. Have a look at <"Rotala rotundifolia growth issues">
The other potential issue is that a large amount of Ca++ ions in solution can interfere with the uptake of other cations, and particularly magnesium (Mg++) and potassium (K+). This is just a numbers game, when an ion diffuses across the cell membrane is is much more likely to be a Ca++ ion, purely because most of the cations in solution are Ca++ ions.
Shortages of K+ and Mg ++ ions will show up in older leaves, because these elements are mobile within the plant and the plant will move them to the new and most photosynthetically active leaves.
Plants need a lot of potassium, it is one of the macro-elements, and shortages show by yellow older leaves, often with "pin holes" in them. Plants don't need as much magnesium, but it is the central atom of the chlorophyll molecule, and if there isn't sufficient older leaves are yellow.
You should be able to find plenty of images of Hygrophila pinnatifida, H. polysperma etc. <"showing deficiency symptoms">.
cheers Darrel
X3NiTH
Member
- Joined
- 13 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 1,647
The correlation is that the chelate for the iron in your fertilisers is breaking down in the hard water and as a consequence the plants are lacking in iron.
I had a complete stauro meltdown once (only saw isolated examples up till then) and it was due to a micro dosing accident (a month in a day, I did water changes but it was obviously not enough), as a consequence the Fluval Stratum I was using swapped its CEC taking the tank from 6dGH 0dKH to 12dGH and 12dkH (possibly higher still). I was using EDTA as the chelate for Iron and as the water hardness went out of range for the chelate it let go of the iron (which probably swapped out with calcium in the stratum), this means there was a lot of free Sodium EDTA in the tank. The meltdown happened over the course of a week and wasn't the same day of the dosing accident, I suspect the plants took up that sodium EDTA and it was too much triggering tank wide collapse. After a complete tank breakdown and substrate ejection I decided to run the tank as a harder water tank (and inert substrate) to explore what happened during the dosing accident. I continued using EDTA but deficiencies were everywhere around the tank and new growth was also pale so I started dosing Fe DTPA alongside the EDTA, there was still occasional melt here and there (glassy Java fern, hadn't seen that before) so stopped the EDTA (dosing max EI and running dGH10 dKH9). Now using DTPA and Gluconate for the Iron, much better combination in harder water. I currently have Stauro in dGh/dKH8 under low light, low to no CO₂, infrequent fertiliser dosing but no EDTA, it's growing glacially and a little leggy but I haven't been able to melt it.
Not a bash at EDTA, it's just not very good for hard water.
I had a complete stauro meltdown once (only saw isolated examples up till then) and it was due to a micro dosing accident (a month in a day, I did water changes but it was obviously not enough), as a consequence the Fluval Stratum I was using swapped its CEC taking the tank from 6dGH 0dKH to 12dGH and 12dkH (possibly higher still). I was using EDTA as the chelate for Iron and as the water hardness went out of range for the chelate it let go of the iron (which probably swapped out with calcium in the stratum), this means there was a lot of free Sodium EDTA in the tank. The meltdown happened over the course of a week and wasn't the same day of the dosing accident, I suspect the plants took up that sodium EDTA and it was too much triggering tank wide collapse. After a complete tank breakdown and substrate ejection I decided to run the tank as a harder water tank (and inert substrate) to explore what happened during the dosing accident. I continued using EDTA but deficiencies were everywhere around the tank and new growth was also pale so I started dosing Fe DTPA alongside the EDTA, there was still occasional melt here and there (glassy Java fern, hadn't seen that before) so stopped the EDTA (dosing max EI and running dGH10 dKH9). Now using DTPA and Gluconate for the Iron, much better combination in harder water. I currently have Stauro in dGh/dKH8 under low light, low to no CO₂, infrequent fertiliser dosing but no EDTA, it's growing glacially and a little leggy but I haven't been able to melt it.
Not a bash at EDTA, it's just not very good for hard water.
lazybones51
Member
Andrew Lindsay
Member
7ml. CO2 Supermarket "All in one" fertiliser daily and 7 ml. Kalium Potassium weekly. Not really a lot that can be cut back as it is all in poor state apart from java fern which is doing quite well!
Had a quick look at the ppm that would give you and looks pretty low per week when compared to EI dosing, I know you have very hard water so magnesium might not be an issue but it looks as if you're dosing half of EI for nitrate and phosphate, maybe try doubling the dose for a couple of weeks and see how you get on
Andrew Lindsay
Member
Thanks, will do - I'll try anything!
