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Using CO2 and some plants still melting

Joined
11 Sep 2018
Messages
55
Location
East Midlands
Hi, New member here. I have a 60ltr small fish community tank planted and with bogwood. After 2 years of varying failures and success with plants I have now added pressurized CO2 in the hope of getting improvements. I did use Seachem Excel but had too many plants melting (at the same time as some proliferating) The CO2 level appears correct after 3 weeks going by the dropper checker colour. Some plants are definitely benefiting but I am disappointed to see crypts. struggling with leaves still melting. Can anybody give me some advice/help? (The lighting is ann Aquaray Grobeam and I dose Ferropol weekly as per instructions) Thanks in advance
 
Hi, No, I don't dose anything else but I did put some Tetra pellets in the gravel a while ago. Hope you can see the pic. OK
 

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If we are to diagnose your issues, then we need lots of info...
Generally speaking a lack of fast growth can be attributed to not enough C02, not enough fertiliser or not enough light.
9 times out of 10 it is not enough C02, this can mean that there in not enough being pumped in or not enough reaching the plants.
Do you have fish in the tank?
What power filter do you use?
When does the gas come on and go off?
What times do the lights come on go off?
Do you have a PH test kit or pen?
The more info we have the easier to help.......
 
Hi all,
Hope you can see the pic. OK
We can. The plants don't look too bad.
No, I don't dose anything else
It may be a deficiency of nitrate (NO3-) or phosphate (PO4---), because the <"Ferropol"> doesn't contain these, and plants require them in quite large amounts. Plant growth is a bit like a car assembly line it is regulated by the limiting nutrient ("slowest process"), the plants can only make use of the extra CO2 if they have sufficient of the other nutrients. Plants require all the <"essential nutrients">, just in <"widely differing amounts">.

In the natural environment <"high levels of nitrogen and phosphorus"> are associated with algal blooms, so some fertiliser mixes leave them out, working on the assumption that tap water and/or a high fish load will supply them. The macro-nutrients are nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P) and potassium (K), and if you don't supply them in sufficient amounts plant growth may be compromised.

Have a look at the <"Estimative Index">, it is a technique that ensures plant are never nutrient deficient.

I'm not a CO2 user (or interested in optimal plant growth) and I use alternative approach where the health and colour of a floating plant is used as an indication of when to add fertiliser.

Because a floating plant has access to aerial CO2 (400ppm CO2) it takes CO2 deficiency out of the equation. I called it the <"Duckweed Index">, although my Duckweed of choice is actually Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum).

cheers Darrel
 
If we are to diagnose your issues, then we need lots of info...
Generally speaking a lack of fast growth can be attributed to not enough C02, not enough fertiliser or not enough light.
9 times out of 10 it is not enough C02, this can mean that there in not enough being pumped in or not enough reaching the plants.
Do you have fish in the tank? Yes, mostly tetras, a few shrimp and some small scavengers
What power filter do you use? Fluval 106 - circ. looks good
When does the gas come on and go off? 07:30 - 18:00
What times do the lights come on go off? 09:30 - 18:00 with ramp time of 120 mins. and both channels set at 10% (sounds low but appears bright enough)
Do you have a PH test kit or pen? No, only a dropper checker bulb
The more info we have the easier to help.......

Thanks
 
Well, here we are several weeks down the line with CO2 injection in use plus daily liquid fert. addition and still I am having some plants melting! Recently tried some so called 'carpet plants' and they have all but failed. What could I be doing wrong? (There is some algae growth on glass, but not enough to be concerned about)
 
Hey andrew, the most obvious point from your response is the lighting duration. With a new tank or a tank having issues 6 hours total lights on time is more than enough. I would suggest you change this immediately.
The next step would be to ensure there is enough co2, so stick to having it come on two hours before the lights but it can go off at least an hour so before the lights go off. Does your drop checker change to a nice light coloured lime green?
Your filter looks to just about have enough power for the tank so try and ensure the circulation is good, all plants waving around a little. The fact your carpet plants failed would suggest poor circulation at substrate level, that or too much light for the co2 your getting around the tank.
You don't mention your lighting, if it's dimmable then turn it down a bit or raise it from the tank if possible until you see some success.
Make small changes then wait a week or two to see if it helped.. daily tweaking is not a good thing.
As always make sure the tank is spotless and up your water changes.

Ps pictures speak a thousand words....

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Thanks Iain for the reply. Here are more details and responses. The light is an Aquaray panel with controller. I had both channels set to 15% (now dropped to 10% today on your advice) The light comes on at 09:30 and has a ramp time of 120mins. It goes off at 20:30 after a ramp down of 120mins. The CO2 goes on 2 hours before lights on and off two hours before lights off. The dropper check does change colour shade to pale green/yellow during the day. The filter is moving water throughout the aquarium as I watch food particles moving all over the place and some plant leaves are swaying. Attached are pictures which show what I'm up against. Thanks again for any further suggestions.
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99% of the time, algae like as in your pictures is indicative of poor CO2 levels and poor CO2 distribution. For a 60l tank you should be aiming at a filter capacity of at least 600litre/hour, preferably outputting via a suitable spray bar located across the back of the tank. Is your filter capacity near this ?

You also haven't stated your CO2 injection method.

Your drop check may indicate green, you say your plants are swaying, but the plants, by dying are indicating otherwise, that CO2 levels and distribution is poor.

I would dial back lighting time, 4-5 hour max at the start to allow plants to settle in.
 
Agree with Ian, looks like CO2 problems.
Reducing the light will reduce CO2 demand and will give you time to get all working correctly.
Removing ramp up and ramp down can be beneficial because it can increase CO2 demand too.
I would start with CO2 amount and flow in the tank.
Amount: a pH profile would give the best info on your CO2 delivery. You could try to get there with placing a DropChecker in different places but an electronic pH device would be better.
Flow: as Ian says having 10 times the tankvolume in filtervolume is a good start. All the leaves have to be swaying gently in the flow and there should be no dead spots. A spraybar covering 80-90 % of the tank will porbably a good method.
Good maintenance is helpfull when facing algaeproblems. Twice a week 50% combined with rubbing leaves, scrubbing hardware and removing dirt, don't forget to aply ferts after that.
 
The light comes on at 09:30 and has a ramp time of 120mins. It goes off at 20:30 after a ramp down of 120mins. The CO2 goes on 2 hours before lights on and off two hours before lights off. The dropper check does change colour shade to pale green/yellow during the day.

As well as reducing the lighting down in duration which appears to be about 11hrs now to a max of six I would start the co2 three hours before lights on. Also I hear ramp up times should be around 15mins to half an hour. You say the DC is green at some point in the day but the aim is to get it green for when the lights come on although be aware it has a delay of around 1 to hours so the reading is the levels from a while ago. Not sure if the DC in your picture is indicative of the green you get or that just happened to be the time you took the picture but it wants to be yellower than that, more like a lime green colour. I would also put the DC about 100mm or so up from the gravel at the furthest point from where the co2 enters. You have it sitting quite high in the tank at the moment where co2 is at its highest but you need to know what's going on lower down in the tank. Co2 is more important when lights come on than it is at the end of the lighting period but try and keep the DC lime green throughout. Once you've got running three hours before if you're still not getting good colour by lights try turning the injection up slightly. If its getting too high towards the back end of the lighting period knock the time off that end.
 
Many thanks for the opinions and advice. Regarding light ramp up/down - I thought with long periods the total light exposure per day would be less than with short ramps? What if I just turn down the lamp brightness % on both channels rather than reducing time on, will that achieve the same effect? The filter is a Fluvial 106 which is 550L/hr. and is running at it's full capacity setting. The CO2 is injected via a Bazooka diffuser set close to the bottom of the tank and the filter suction tube is drawing the bubbles in a couple of inches above it (longer contact tim?) The filter 'burps' as expected using this method but doesn't concern me. Noted about distribution, but I think the circulation is as good as can be. Plant movement suggests so anyway, but I take the point and will investigate further. I will also move the DC to see if it changes as suggested. Thanks again.
 
Reducing lighting by either brightness and duration is a benefit although in high tech tanks people tend to go shorter duration higher light and longer duration lower light in low tech. Either way it will benefit, right now the lighting is pushing the plants past a threshold they're not comfortable with so get them comfortable and you can always turn it up later.

Sorry I have nothing on ramping up as I don't do it myself purely because I don't have the equipment to do so or I would. I was plagiarising something I read the other day on this forum which is why I said "I hear" whoever said it it was someone who's opinion I respect from what I remember so mentally logged it. @foxfish possibly? They never went into detail why I don't think.

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Looks like you have a bit of a battle that at the minute the algae seems to be winning.
I would cut my lighting period down to 6 hours (4 hours on 1 hour either side ramp up and ramp down. This will also slow the plant growth and allow them to absorb all the ferts they need.

I would also do a big clean and removed as much algae as possible then do a 70% water change, if you can twice a week.

The last trick is filling a syringe with seachem excel or similar to blast the algae you can't reach. It should go brown or red and die. In the past I have used double the recommended dose but have killed of some cherry shrimps in the process, so use with care.

If you can get a pH pen can be really useful for doing a pH profile throughout the day, it's a far more accurate way find out what's happening with the co2.
I had 2 drop checkers at opposite ends of the tank and I was amazed how different the co2 levels where. I fixed it by having a big external pump, I have a 300l tank and have a 4000 lph pump.
 
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