UNS 60T Startup

[CDNDavid]

Hello all, hope you wont mind the non UK, Canadian user posting. After looking around this looks like the best site for planted tank advice.

I'm new to planted tanks and will surely run into some problems and will be looking for help, so I though this journal could contain all the details and progress about starting up my first tank. My goal is to grow healthy plants first that will help to look after the inhabitants and be aesthetically pleasing.

The details. Low tech non-CO2.
Tank -UNS 60T, 95L -60Wx36Dx45H cm.
Light -Chihiros A-II 2400 Lumens.
Filter -Tidal 55, I have added a second sponge and purigen.
Substrate -Fine gravel, Light beige color, bag says 1-2mm. Rinsed before using, depth 1 1/2" at front & 3 1/2" at back.
Hardscape -2 pieces of spider wood and some local granite & basalt rock I found and tested with vinegar.
-10 pack of API root tabs
No CO2, maybe in the future?

Planting list: I believe all the plants I bought had been submerged in tanks already, no invitro.
Ludwigia Palustris
Bacopa Caroliniana
1 Trident Fern, will be adding a broad leaf Java fern
Crypt Wendtii Green
Crypt Willisie
Bucephalandra Kedagang
Anubias Nana petite
Staurogyne Repen
Frogbit

Fertilizer & products being dosed:
Seachem, Prime, Stability & Advanced, & Potassium
Fertilizer is an All in one product that is supplied dry and mixed with distilled water. Package says in will add the following when 2ml is dosed to 40liters. N=2.24, P =.25, K=2.65 + micro nutrients

Water from the tap measures:
Gh=7, Kh=4, PH=7.5, Ammonia & Nitrite & Nitrate all = 0
City water testing shows; Iron = 0.08 ppm, Magnesium = 6ppm, Phosphate = 2ppm, Potassium = 1ppm

I preformed some Par testing using the Photone app on my Android Pixel phone, I measured the light level in an empty tank at the substrate level of ~17" below the light: 25% = 18par, 50% = 30par, 75% = 45par, 100% = 55par

Log: Hopefully I will update this as I progress so its up to date.
Day 1, I rinsed all material, planted the tank in the evening and filled. I then dosed, Seachem Prime, Stability, & Advanced at levels suggested on bottles. Light is set at 35% for 6hours in the afternoon, heater is set to 22c.
Day 2, -Water was clear in the morning. I dosed 4ml of fertilizer & 2ppm of Ammonia to help cycle the tank, oops! Also added the frogbit. -Afternoon I had what looked like a white Bacterial bloom, I think this was from the ammonia and got denser through the day. After researching I found out the ammonia was a bad idea and wont be using again!, mostly because of the risk of algae.
Day 3, the bloom had reduced alot by evening. After researching a water change is recommended, I preformed a 80% water change, removed a few unhealth leaves mostly from crypts, and a couple small bits of algae. Then dosed the 4 Seachem products and 4ml of fert. Water is now clear.
-Noticed some yellowing/pale colouring on a few Staurogyne leaves in the very front left corner. Frogbit colour has become paler/yellower then when planted, frogbit was green when purchased. Thinking all this is from transplanting/new tank.
Day 4, Water is still clear in the morning!
On going I plan to do about 50% water changes either every second day or everyday.

I have a few questions which I will ask in my next post, please let me know if this is not the right format or place for questions? Also feel free to comment on anything I have, or done or should be doing to help. I will also provide pictures when im able.

Thank you to everyone.

 

[CDNDavid]

A few questions, again let me know if these should be individual posts in the correct forums.
I have added a picture after the water change on day 3, never mind the rock on top of the left piece of wood lol.

-Does my light level of 35% which should be around par 20ish at the substrate sound right?
-How much fertilizer should I be using to start with? Supplier suggests 2ml per 40 litres 2-3 times a week.
-The Ludwigia was bought as 10 cuttings/stems with no roots, but had some side roots. Hopefully between this and the half dozen frogbit will be enough plant mass? I could add some Pothos cuttings
-Any initial thoughts on the yellowing/pale colour of the frogbit and Staurogyne? I know its only 4 days in, patience is likely needed.
-Should I do daily water changes? or is every second day enough?

thanks again.

 

[CDNDavid]

I forgot to mentioned I tested the water on day 2 after the bacterial bloom started, Ammonia=1, Nitrite =0, Nitrates=2, PH=7.5
On day 3 right before the water change the water tested, Ammonia = 0.5, Nitrite = 0, didnt measure Nitrates.

Looks like the fertilizer Nitrate level/dosing matches what the supplier said as i had dosed 4ml for my approx 90l tank which resulted in 2ppm nitrate.

Also a picture of the frogbit on day 3.

 

[Fishfur]

I can see that some of the new frogbit leaves look quite pale. I had a similar problem and lack of iron was the reason. I think you’re low on iron. With a pH of 7.5, if the chelator is EDTA that might be an issue. What dry mix are you using?

Fwiw, my personal opinion is that Stability is a waste of money though I’m aware many like it. It bugs me enormously that Seachem will not reveal what is in it & that they advise regular use after cycling. There are other bottled bacteria cycling aids that don’t hide what’s in them and I prefer those if bottled bacteria are the way you want to go.

(Btw, fellow Canuck here, what part of Canada are you calling home?)

Also, ammonia isn’t the cause of a bacterial bloom - in fact, a big bloom can produce a bit of ammonia. The most common cause is an excessive load of organic debris. A bloom may appear after substrate has been ‘deep cleaned’ because the disturbed organics provide a lot of fuel for heterotrophic bacteria. Their sheer numbers are the clouding we see.

But in a brand new setup like yours, clouding is extremely common in the first week or so and it isn’t the usual sort of bacterial bloom. This kind of cloudiness typically clears up without anything being done & fairly quickly, but you can do a few huge water changes if you like to clear it faster.

Why this clouding happens in new setups I have yet to find out because there sure isn’t a load of organic detritus to fuel bacteria in a brand new tank.

 

[CDNDavid]

Some of the new frogbit leaves look quite pale. I had a similar problem and lack of iron was the reason. I think you’re low on iron. Btw, fellow Canuck here, what part of Canada are you calling home?

Hey, Winnipeg.
I thought about Iron yeah, is it to early to say though? The frogbit in the picture had only been in 24hrs and i had done a bleach dip.

Current Iron sources would be; 0.08ppm from water changes, & 0.17ppm from fertilizer. The root tabs have iron too but that might not effect the water column?

 

[Fishfur]

Root tab content does get into the water column so maybe.

In 24 hours all you’re seeing is that this WAS growing in iron deficient water.

But if you get more new leaves that are pale, some additional chelated iron would be the best thing I know to try. If the chelating agent isn’t either DPTA or EDDHA the iron may not be getting to the plants. A pH of 7.5 means the most common chelator, EDTA, isn’t going to be enough.

The pale leaves won’t green up but new ones should be green if all is well.

 

[CDNDavid]

Thanks for that, any suggestions on ones that are DPTA or EDHHA? Seachem Iron is the easiest to find likely lol. any others?

 

[Fishfur]

I just got a couple inexpensive packets of what appeared to be 6% chelated iron with DPTA on AliExpress. Naturally all the text on the packets was in Chinese when they arrived, but someone kindly translated it for me. Turned out to be a trace mix with 6% iron and that’s actually perfectly fine by me.

It cost a fraction of what anything from Amazon or other online Canadian or US sources would have cost. They had some with EDDHA too.

If you prefer something with a recognizable brand name, look at APT fertilizers from the 2 Hour Aquarist.

 

[hypnogogia]

I recommend that you add more plant mass at the start, for example, water wisteria or other fast growing plants. You can leave them floating. They will absorb excess nutrients. Also daily water changes for the first week or two, then down to every two days. You will get brown looking algae called diatoms, and best way to co try, them are daily water changes ages, as well as removal with a toothbrush.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The frogbit in the picture had only been in 24hrs and i had done a bleach dip.

It might be the bleach (NaOCl) then. If you are worried <"about snails"> etc., "<"sparkling (carbonated) water">" is a lot safer and will kill animals without damaging plants.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Seachem Iron is the easiest to find likely

<"Ferrous gluconate based"> unfortunately, so not any good <"in harder water">.

cheers Darrel

 

[CDNDavid]

<"Ferrous gluconate based"> unfortunately, so not any good <"in harder water">.

Are you sure? Seachems info speaks about this and says "Our approach is different in that we use a complex (not chelate) of ferrous iron in Flourish Iron". I also can get Aquaforest iron which appears to be Fe2+, It might be cheaper and higher concentrate too.

The pale leaves won’t green up but new ones should be green if all is well.

So last night I noticed new buds on the frogbit, small curled leaves coming up from the centre of the plant? This morning they had opened and are a lightish green but not yellow.

 

[CDNDavid]

Update
Day 4 (yesterday) Evening,
-Tank is still clear, some white fuzz on the wood, not seeing much Algae, couple more crypt leaves melted. Frogbit appears greener maybe, but there is new leaf buds and the Ludwigia appears to have new growth too. Some of the frogbit roots have some thread algae. A few more of the Staurogyne leaves in the front left corner might of yellowed.
-Tested water, Ammonia 0.25, Nitrites 0, Nitrates very low almost 0 if not 0.
-50% water change, cleaned the wood removed melted leaves. Added the 4 seachem products and 4ml fert (should be 2ppm of N) Also added 3-4 Pothos stems that I had previously started rooting in a glass.
Day 5 (today) morning, Frogbit buds opened and new leaves look light green, not yellow. Tested Nitrates and again very low, 0 or almost 0. I added 4ml of fert again. Note light doesn't turn on until 1PM.

Few questions
-Im wondering if its a Nitrogen deficiency than a iron one? Am i correct to be dosing based on the Nitrate level i am measuring? I should try measuring it after adding fert.
-For the Staurogyne im wondering if i should be increasing the light level or time? Currently 6hrs at 35% intensity. Also Im wondering if I planted them to densely/close together?
-Is it better to dose fert closer to when the light turns on? I have been doing it in the evening and then the light turns on at 1PM for 6 hours.
-Should i try and remove the Algae from the frogbit roots? could be a challenge with out hurting them.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Are you sure?

<"I'm certain">.

You need a chelate, and once you get above pH7, you need FeDTPA or FeEEDHA <"........... and why we need to talk about iron (Fe)"> and <"We've talked about iron deficiency, but what are going to do about it?">

Seachem's info speaks about this and says "Our approach is different in that we use a complex (not chelate) of ferrous iron in Flourish Iron".

That is both the issue with, and genius of, <"Seachem's advertising">, they mislead without ever <"actively lying">.

I also can get Aquaforest iron which appears to be Fe2+

Same issue, it is <"all smoke and mirrors"> "ferrous" (Fe++) ions are always going to convert to "ferric" (Fe+++) ions in oxidising conditions and then form all sorts of insoluble compounds. If it is green? it is am iron II compound <"and if it is rust red?"> It is an iron III compound.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Im wondering if its a Nitrogen deficiency than a iron one? Am i correct to be dosing based on the Nitrate level i am measuring? I should try measuring it after adding fert.

Nitrogen (N) deficiencies show first <"in older leaves">. This is because nitrogen is mobile within the plant and can be transferred to the newest tissue.

-Tested water, Ammonia 0.25, Nitrites 0, Nitrates very low almost 0 if not 0.

There are some issue with water testing kits, that the vendors don't tell you about, have a look through the link above <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?"> and linked threads. At the most basic level the "plants can't lie", but <"the test kit can">.

Should i try and remove the Algae from the frogbit roots? could be a challenge with out hurting them.

Probably not, if it becomes an obvious green web you can twirl it <"around a tooth brush etc"> and remove it. "Shrimps" are really good for this <"Crangonyx as an algae eater">.

cheers Darrel

 

[CDNDavid]

Hi all,

Nitrogen (N) deficiencies show first <"in older leaves">. This is because nitrogen is mobile within the plant and can be transferred to the newest tissue.

There are some issue with water testing kits, that the vendors don't tell you about, have a look through the link above <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?"> and linked threads. At the most basic level the "plants can't lie", but <"the test kit can">.

So with the new leaves being green, and the older ones are yellowing, this would suggest nitrogen?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So with the new leaves being green, and the older ones are yellowing, this would suggest nitrogen?

It could be any of the <"mobile essential plant nutrients">, but nitrogen is usually where I start - <"The scientific background to the "Leaf Colour Chart"">.

Plant growth is like a <"car assembly line">, you need all the <"fourteen essential plant nutrients"> available <"Liebig's law of the minimum - Wikipedia">, or you don't get any growth.

cheers Darrel

 

[CDNDavid]

Another day and same old, 50% water change, 4ml fert etc. Removed the bad leaves from the frogbit.

I know Im doing 50% water changes but concerned if im over fertilizing? Im guessing this should change as I reduce water changes?

Pick of the frogbit. New leaves are still forming. Thoughts on there condition? The oldest leaves seem to be turning yellow/brownish still but maybe thats still from being transplanted etc?

 

[Fishfur]

Hi all,

Nitrogen (N) deficiencies show first <"in older leaves">. This is because nitrogen is mobile within the plant and can be transferred to the newest tissue.

There are some issue with water testing kits, that the vendors don't tell you about, have a look through the link above <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?"> and linked threads. At the most basic level the "plants can't lie", but <"the test kit can">.

Probably not, if it becomes an obvious green web you can twirl it <"around a tooth brush etc"> and remove it. "Shrimps" are really good for this <"Crangonyx as an algae eater">.

cheers Darrel

You could simply cut off the infested roots. It won’t harm the frogbit - I regularly cut their roots back hard because in shallower tanks they get too long & root into the substrate if left untrimmed.

 

[CDNDavid]

Thinking that I may have a nitrogen deficiency as the older frogbit leaves appear to be yellowing, I checked on the fert im using. After talking to the supplier and realizing there is a difference between N-Nitrogen and NO3, the suppliers info says "N" when it should be NO3.

Anyway its actually N 1.0, P 0.5, K 5.0, The label does say low tech so im actually not surprised by this, just the label is confusing. I have decided to double my dosage to 8ml after my current daily water changes.
If my math is right (based on a 80l tank) this will result in a dosed amount of Macros of: N 1, P 0.5, K 5, which should have a NO3 of 4.5 ppm
& dosed Micros of; Fe 0.35, Mg 0.4, Mn 0.1 & S of 1.5
Im also adding Seachem Potassium per label.

To help prove the NO3 dosing, I tested the water before dosing and 30mins after. before dosing the NO3 was 0, after dosing 5.

Regarding Fe, I'm fairly certain that a portion of the Fe has DPTA for the chelating agent. Im not sure if its 100% or a portion. If its a portion DPTA could be 25% with the rest being EDTA, but this is a total guess. The brand new leaves on the frogbit are a lighter green, not sure what colour they should be when new. We will see what the new dosing does.

Question;
As im new to this, is there any concerns with increasing the dosing? It seems like P, K and the micros are not being overdosed with this? As well my daily 50% water changes should help with overdosing?