Unlimited nutrients using E.I.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It's just that algae and plants have two very different ecological strategies. Algae have an R-strategy: fast growth, lots of progules, highly influenced by environemtnal conditions, simple structure etc... Plants have a K-strategy: slow growth, less fertile, less vulnerable to environmental oscillations, complex structure and 'organs'. It's like comparing an elephant with a mouse. If we have stable conditions and generally good conditions for plant growth, plants will thrive, be strong and grow steadily. Algae, generally, need some environmental change (an external trigger). They bloom, reproduce and dye. My view...

Mine as well. I still like the R and K approach to life strategies, although they have gone out of favour academically. This is right back to my first few posts on UKAPS <has anyone read this? (sears-conlin article on algae) | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers darrel

 

[Reuben]

Mine as well. I still like the R and K approach to life strategies, although they have gone out of favour academically. This is right back to my first few posts on UKAPS .

Thanks for that link Darrel, I had not read that one before. Yikes! I feel like I reopened a can of worms here🙂. I do have more of an understanding of where you are coming from now. I suppose my original question formed itself because I wasn't sure what harm adding OTT nutrient levels would do, if any. I like the simplicity of EI as it means I just focus on getting Co2 correct. At the moment this is the style of aquarium I want to master. Plus, I'm not sure any aquarium low tech or otherwise can be 'sustainable' in the long term can it? I'd say that having a small glass box with fish/plants in will always require meddling of some kind.
That said, one of my favourite aquariums on here is Bigtom's Bucket of mud, which is very different to the high tech approach I'm learning at the moment.

@gmartins; I think when it was said that 'there is no competition between plants and algae' that statement stands true, in as much that there is no real competition for the same resources (nutrients in this discussion) exactly because - as you highlight, their growth patterns and nutrient demands are very different.

Anyway I have at least got a better grasp of the arguments now, thanks all🙂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Plus, I'm not sure any aquarium low tech or otherwise can be 'sustainable' in the long term can it? I'd say that having a small glass box with fish/plants in will always require meddling of some kind.

I have very limited intervention, I'm a regular water changer and filter cleaner, and I remove obvious dead leaves and the floaters when they cover more than 3/4 of the surface etc., but other than that I largely leave the tanks to get on with it. My kitchen tank has been set up for about 5 years, and it does need some intervention now, purely because the plants have spread and now covered the entire bottom area.Once it has had a limited thin I'll leave it again.

This is how it looked in 2010.



Major differences are that the Echinodorus and Cryptocorynes, now fill the middle "space", and I have a less thick layer of floating Ceratopteris.

Cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Thanks for that link Darrel, I had not read that one before. Yikes! I feel like I reopened a can of worms here🙂. I do have more of an understanding of where you are coming from now.

I should also have said that since that thread, whilst my basic philosophy has remained the same, I've come to appreciate that the high tech tank concept using EI, the 10x rule, large water change, extreme clealiness and a drop checker to give 30ppm CO2 can work very well. You have to believe the evidence of your own eyes, and the evidence presented on this web-site is pretty conclusive. I think the "in balance" figure (3.) in the post by "Spider72" on the linked thread probably offers a good explanation of why.


From a personal point of view I still look on plants primarily as a mechanism for maintaining water quality, which means that I like a large plant mass, and I like it growing fairly slowly and sustainably.

cheers Darrel

 

[Reuben]

I think the "in balance" figure (3.) in the post by "Spider72" on the linked thread probably offers a good explanation of why.

Oh, that is a very handy graphic🙂 . Sums things up quite nicely. Wish I'd known that when I set up...

 

[gmartins]

@gmartins; I think when it was said that 'there is no competition between plants and algae' that statement stands true, in as much that there is no real competition for the same resources (nutrients in this discussion) exactly because - as you highlight, their growth patterns and nutrient demands are very different.

By definition, competition exists when two or more species use the same resource (e.g. space, nutrient, light,...) and that resource is limiting. If there is no limitation, there is no competition.

Mine as well. I still like the R and K approach to life strategies, although they have gone out of favour academically.

The names have changed but the basics are still the same.

 

[ceg4048]

By definition, competition exists when two or more species use the same resource (e.g. space, nutrient, light,...) and that resource is limiting. If there is no limitation, there is no competition.

Those who follow this path in a panted tank are doomed to failure. Algae and plants are not competitors for nutrients because the amounts required by each are orders of magnitude different. Competition in this case requires the target amounts to be similar. Plants are constantly leeching nutrients and other products back into the water column. Algae do not need to compete with plants and plants could never survive the competition if it were the case.

Cheers,

 

[ian_m]

Those who follow this path in a panted tank are doomed to failure.

No wonder he is having issues with a panted tank...

 

[gmartins]

Those who follow this path in a panted tank are doomed to failure. Algae and plants are not competitors for nutrients because the amounts required by each are orders of magnitude different. Competition in this case requires the target amounts to be similar. Plants are constantly leeching nutrients and other products back into the water column. Algae do not need to compete with plants and plants could never survive the competition if it were the case.

Cheers,

I am not saying that they compete or that this should be the path. I use EI myself. I am just saying what is the ecological definition. If one uses EI it is impossible to have competition for nutrients as they are, by definition, non-limiting.

If we were to use distilled water with no substrate then they will compete for whatever the trace amounts of ferts that might get in, no matter the amounts they need. The premise about competition is that there is not suficient amount of a resource for all. It could be symmetrical (the two species compete) or asymmetrical (one species affects the other but is not influenced by that species).

and sure plants can survive algae. Lots of plants persist and thrive in eutrophied bodies of water (e.g. Egeria densa), despite intense levels of green water. But you are right, not all plants (and probably the majority) will not survive.

 

[Eugine Thomas]

Hi all,

I should also have said that since that thread, whilst my basic philosophy has remained the same, I've come to appreciate that the high tech tank concept using EI, the 10x rule, large water change, extreme clealiness and a drop checker to give 30ppm CO2 can work very well. You have to believe the evidence of your own eyes, and the evidence presented on this web-site is pretty conclusive. I think the "in balance" figure (3.) in the post by "Spider72" on the linked thread probably offers a good explanation of why.


From a personal point of view I still look on plants primarily as a mechanism for maintaining water quality, which means that I like a large plant mass, and I like it growing fairly slowly and sustainably.

cheers Darrel

Where is that photo linked to? I'd love to read the full article.

 

[Edvet]

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/...ears-conlin-article-on-algae.8834/#post-95807

 

[Eugine Thomas]

Thank you.