Twinstar..what is it?

[Thumper]

I had a Twinstar Mini M and a Chihiros Doctor - both in different setups and the only thing i noticed was a "fresher" smell of the water.
Currently i'm back to the good old Söchtinger Oxydator to enrich my water with O2 at all times and thus keep the DOC low.

 

[Deano3]

Maybe its on its way out, cant justify buying another reactor so once doing nothing i will just remove i think.

How do you chrck hardness of water as i am sure mune is very hard do i need a tds meter ?

Thanks dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

 

[Andrew Butler]

How do you chrck hardness of water as i am sure mune is very hard do i need a tds meter ?

A TDS meter will tell you your hardness, yes. If you know where your water is coming from / where in the country you are you will probably get a general idea - lookup water reports to give you a general idea although they're not gospel.

Currently i'm back to the good old Söchtinger Oxydator to enrich my water with O2 at all times and thus keep the DOC low.

This is something I saw used on another thread and is something I have in mind too, I've really hard water so wonder if this would work better although I know (think) it does a slightly different job

 

[Wookii]

So, I finally managed to make my way through this entire monster thread.

After seeing this ugly white device, with more than a passing resemblance to the USS Starship Enterprise, in a large number of very nice looking planted tanks online, my interest has been piqued.

So this device uses electrolysis to generate oxygen to increase O2 concentrations in the water, much like the Söchtinger Oxydator mentioned above which instead slowly doses hydrogen peroxide directly into the tank to generate O2.

Is there anything else these devices are doing other than raising O2 as the active end product?

Why does dosing with O2 have such a beneficial impact? (I appreciate discussions on the ‘benefits’ are often controversial, but there seem to be sufficient reports of ‘some’ positive impact to consider these to be more than just snake oil products)

From a technical standpoint, surely with sufficient surface movement, are O2 levels not close to saturated anyway - or is that and assumption too far and not feasible with typical levels of surface movement?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So this device uses electrolysis to generate oxygen to increase O2 concentrations in the water,

It definitely produces oxygen.

much like the Söchtinger Oxydator mentioned above which instead slowly doses hydrogen peroxide directly into the tank to generate O2

Yes, the Oxydator drips the hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) onto a ceramic catalyst (containing platinum (Pt)) and that catalyses the breakdown of 2H2O2 to O2 and 2H2O.

Is there anything else these devices are doing other than raising O2 as the active end product?

We think it is a nano bubble generator as well, these very small bubbles are very persistent in the water column, have antimicrobial properties and <"a patent that covers them">.

Why does dosing with O2 have such a beneficial impact? From a technical standpoint, surely with sufficient surface movement, are O2 levels not close to saturated anyway - or is that and assumption too far and not feasible with typical levels of surface movement?

It depends, it could make <"microbial biofiltration more effective">, but I think you are correct, low oxygen levels are very unlikely to be a problem in a <"planted tank"> with <"water movement">.

You can biologically treat sewage (which has a huge BOD (~600mg/L oxygen) in the <"activated (aerated) sludge process">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Hi all, It definitely produces oxygen.Yes, the Oxydator drips the hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) onto a ceramic catalyst (containing platinum (Pt)) and that catalyses the breakdown of 2H2O2 to O2 and 2H2O.

Thanks Darrel.

As far as I’m aware though the Oxydator doses H2O2 directly into the tank. The reaction/addition of O2 is just via exposure to the tank water itself.

The small catalyst pieces inside the reactor serve only to produce enough reaction and O2 inside the reactor to force the H2O2 out of the bottom in small continuous quantities through two small pin holes.

This is a decent video on making a DIY alternative, that is also useful in that it shows in detail how the Söchtinger version works (there is a bit of rambling, but from about 1 min it is how’s how it works):

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

As far as I’m aware though the Oxydator doses H2O2 directly into the tank. The reaction/addition of O2 is just via exposure to the tank water itself. The small catalyst pieces inside the reactor serve only to produce enough reaction and O2 inside the reactor to force the H2O2 out of the bottom in small continuous quantities through two small pin holes.

I didn't know this. I've never actually used one. Hydrogen peroxide would definitely increase the ORP of the water and it would still decompose to oxygen and water.

As long it was a very controlled release there shouldn't be too many problems.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Hi all, I didn't know this. I've never actually used one. Hydrogen peroxide would definitely increase the ORP of the water and it would still decompose to oxygen and water.

As long it was a very controlled release there shouldn't be too many problems.

cheers Darrel

Yeah, I’ve not used one either - I always assumed that it generated the O2 in isolation, and then cunningly diffused that into the water column. I feel somewhat cheated that it’s essentially simply a leaking bottle lol (albeit a controlled leak) - very easy to DIY anyway, and 6% H2O2 is as cheap as chips with a 5 litre food grade bottle at <£15 off Amazon.

What I can’t seem to find anywhere, from folks using either this or the Twinstar, are any measurement to track any changes in the DO.

Also I don’t fully understand the full scope of the benefits of the increased DO. I follow that is obviously of benefit shrimp and fish, I also get that it could boost the health and activity of the micro-biological colonies in the tank and filter.

I could also see that it might inhibit algae - though I must admit I don’t fully understand why that is the case. Sure in nature you typically see less algae in bodies of water with presumably higher DO, than in bodies of water with less DO (stream vs lakes) - excluding those cases where the DO results from the photosynthesis of an algae infestation - though I’m sure that’s a gross oversimplification.

What I can’t logically follow though, is the potential benefit of higher DO for the plants directly - given reports of better plant health and increased growth?

Though we normally take it as a given that plants are net O2 contributors in a planted tank during photosynthesis, do they actually benefit from the O2 being fully saturated vs partially saturated during that period?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What I can’t seem to find anywhere, from folks using either this or the Twinstar, are any measurement to track any changes in the DO.

The issue is really the cost of the DO meters, they are simple to use, and have easy calibration etc, but they are a very considerable investment. You can <"use pH as a proxy of the CO2/O2 ratio">, but you would still need an O2 meter to give you O2 values for the differing pH values. You would also need some measure of dKH, again you could use conductivity measurement as a proxy. The last thing is you would need to know would be temperature and atmospheric pressure.

Also I don’t fully understand the full scope of the benefits of the increased DO. I follow that is obviously of benefit shrimp and fish, I also get that it could boost the health and activity of the micro-biological colonies in the tank and filter.

It is really back to what sort of fish you keep. If you keep marine reef tank, or have Tanganyikan "surge zone" cichlids, then high oxygen levels are an unalloyed good thing, after that you are much more into a "shades of grey" world, there is some further discussion in <"Redox- Why don't we..">.

Even with oxygen, you can definitely have too much of a good thing. The very high oxygen levels you can get in eutrophic conditions with <"still water and abundant phytoplankton"> are likely to cause damage to fish, and they are something that they have to avoid in intensive aquaculture. Once you get past about <"150% saturation"> damage to fish gills etc is likely. This is the same issue with an over-dose of any strong oxidiser.

What I can’t logically follow though, is the potential benefit of higher DO for the plants directly - given reports of better plant health and increased growth?

That is an interesting question, the answer would be that high oxygen levels are likely to make uptake of CO2 more difficult, so presumably any benefits are because there is lessened biofilm on the plant leaves.

Though we normally take it as a given that plants are net O2 contributors in a planted tank during photosynthesis, do they actually benefit from the O2 being fully saturated vs partially saturated during that period?

Not in terms of photosynthesis. Most aquatic plants are <"C3" plants>, and photosynthesis is inhibited at high oxygen levels (by the confusingly called photorespiration). Photorespiration doesn't effect C4 plants (I'm not aware of any aquatic ones of these) or CAM plants (Isoetids are CAM plants, but other than that it is mainly succulents).

cheers Darrel

 

[RisingSun]

Just got the chihiros doctor and it wants me to adjust the "capacity selection" based on the TDS. As far as I can tell, the higher "capacity selection" just makes it run more often. Any reason I have to follow this chart or can I just set it to the most frequent level?

 

[Mark Slater]

I've been doing some research on this just recently after an outbreak of Algae in both my tanks - probably caused by increased nitrate in tap water just recently

Ok so here's how I think its all working...

Electrolysis of water basically splits water into Hydrogen and Oxygen (we've all done that at school)

Whilst the Hydrogen bubbles off to the surface the oxygen does the same but some dissovles en route very much like carbon dioxide does.

ALSO produced is a small amount of H2O2 - it's a side effect of electrolysis.

So now we get to the stage of understaning the benefits

Oygen is an obvious benefit dissolved in the water
Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) --- well here's an explanation of what this does



NOTE: using this product in Salt Water or even Brackish water is dangerous because the electrolysis of salted water - Salt being NaCl (did that at school as well ?) also splits into Sodium and CHLORINE - Free chlorine in your tank is not a good idea

Also note that the H2O2 split into a Hydroxyl Radical (see the video) will kill most bacteria - this is why you don't want to run the device for too long, it will start to affect your filters

Hope this helps - and I've posted a picture of a test unit I made for a few pounds with two carbon plates..

 

[Sammy Islam]

Whats the best way to clean the disc? I have been using my chihiros doctor for 2 weeks and there is already white stuff on the disc, i assume it's calcium? It definitely isn't working as well as it did on day 1, I'd say bubble output has reduced by atleast half.

I tried to clean my disc using some "kilrock" solution that i found in the kitchen, i added a capful to a large mug of hot water and left the disc in for 10mins until it stopped fizzing, then left it in some dechlorinated water for a bit before putting it back in the tank. It has definitely cleaned the disc as there is not any white residue, but i wouldn't say it's made it perform better or like it originally did.

Anybody successfully cleaned the disc and had it output bubbles like a new disc would?

Thanks

 

[Witcher]

We think it is a nano bubble generator as well, these very small bubbles are very persistent in the water column, have antimicrobial properties and <"a patent that covers them">.

Does it means it also kills the bacteria we need in the tank?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Does it means it also kills the bacteria we need in the tank?

It will kill some of them, but because the nitrifying micro-organisms are mainly embedded in biofilms in the substrate, in the filter, in the rhizosphere etc it will have a limited effect.

I'd have to say I'm a <"Twinstar agnostic">, but other people swear by (or at) them.

cheers Darrel

 

[Witcher]

I'd have to say I'm a <"Twinstar agnostic">, but other people swear by (or at) them.

That picture tells everything about it, thanks!

 

[Sanqhar]

Haven't read through all 46 pages of this thread so apologies if this have been covered before.
I found this video today:



Appears a simple cheap substitute.

tom

 

[Ed Wiser]

Joey video I will move on.

 

[Zeus.]

Joey video I will move on.

Son is a fan of his, as for me I don't bother with him 😉

 

[jaypeecee]

The problem is that you can't really test it, or any other similar bit of kit.

Hi Folks,

OK, I'm almost seven years late on this topic! But, I'd noticed these contraptions in some people's tanks recently. So, I tried to find out what on earth they were supposed to do. I'm still not entirely clear about that as the manufacturer's website didn't help. I spotted the comment by @dw1305 above and some people have suggested that it's an ozonizer. That seems unlikely to me but, if it is, I would expect it to increase the ORP of the water. It would be interesting to try this. I have an ORP probe (currently in use) but I'm not willing to purchase the Twinstar gizmo. But, I've only read the first three pages of a 46-page thread. Perhaps I'll find that someone's already 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt'!

JPC

 

[Wookii]

Hi Folks,

OK, I'm almost seven years late on this topic! But, I'd noticed these contraptions in some people's tanks recently. So, I tried to find out what on earth they were supposed to do. I'm still not entirely clear about that as the manufacturer's website didn't help. I spotted the comment by @dw1305 above and some people have suggested that it's an ozonizer. That seems unlikely to me but, if it is, I would expect it to increase the ORP of the water. It would be interesting to try this. I have an ORP probe (currently in use) but I'm not willing to purchase the Twinstar gizmo. But, I've only read the first three pages of a 46-page thread. Perhaps I'll find that someone's already 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt'!

JPC

I don't believe it generates Ozone. It's a very simple device with two fine parallel stainless steel mesh plates with a gap between, and uses electrolysis, I believe, to split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. The name 'steriliser' given to these products is a bit of a misnomer, I don't they are not sterilising anything. What they are doing I believe, is increasing the DO levels in the water, which increases the ORP of the water as you say. I think that contributes to an environment that is less appealing to algal growth. I'll let others with a biology background suggest precisely why the increased DO levels might be inhibitive to algae.

Anecdotally I have one in my tank, and the only two times I have had minor algae outbreaks (one BBA and one Staghorn) is when I had inadvertently turned the Twinstar unit off for a week or more (cutting the power to it resets it, and you need to press the button on the side to set it going again). Then again, that could be sheer coincidence, so as is often the case with these things, YMMV.