Edvet
Member
Maybe the important words here are "shop"and "display tanks"😀
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Twinstar..what is it?
- Thread starter foxfish
- Start date
Also find out on Russian forum about Twinstar
or ozone or hydrogen but hardly hydrogen .. probably ozone ..
Previously, the manufacturer makes ozone generators, but to adjust the speed of the ozone supply was not possible, and now switched to see a new way of ozone supply ...
An interesting device to understand what's inside, so most can be done?
The use of Ozone in a filtration system for our tanks has some merits IMO, as the oxidation of the algea spores in the water should help decrease algea. But we don't want it to reduce the population of the beneficial bacteria in are plant roots, substrate and filter media.
But if the ozone was bubbled though the water post filter with its half life being very short in water I don't think it would be an issue
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
Haha very valid point, although most of the "renowned" scapers also appear to be using them also. In the same way though they could be freebies and twinstar know if people see them in tanks which lets be honest, were already going to be amazing and algae free with or without their device it would encourage people to buy them thinking it's that device that made the difference.
But if the ozone was bubbled though the water post filter with its half life being very short in water I don't think it would be an issue
I think that's why they recommend them not to be any where near the filter intake. Not sure how long it takes for the bubble to oxidise and just become harmless oxygen but I would hazard a guess and say it was pretty instantaneous.
Jack Reilly
Member
It says in the manual not to use Twinstar with fish medications , why not ?
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
I think I read on another forum somewhere when I was looking for cleaning instructions that fish meds can damage the plates on the diffuser.
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
Just to put some meat on the bones of that, the poster on that forum had been complaining about the longevity of the diffuser and Twinstar had emailed them with advice on how to clean it properly to prolong life and also said using medications could shorten its life span. Assuming that copy and pasted email came from Twiinstar I would say that is why you shouldn't use meds with it in the tank...there maybe other reasons regarding certain chemical reactions or maybe it lowering the strength of certain meds I don't know.
X3NiTH
Member
- Joined
- 13 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 1,662
Twinstar = Pulse Electrocoagulation
The electrodes will go through either Passivation (build up of elements on electrode surface) or Dissolution (reduction of electrode material) or a combination of both.
Meds will be electrocoagulated and be degraded in their function and any metal by products could passivate the electrode reducing its functionality. Depending on the hardness of the water Copper will passivate as copper carbonate on electrodes (white precipitate), lots of fish meds contain copper.
If anyone has an oscilloscope and a twinstar it might be worth hooking them up together to work out the current reversal pulse timings (that's likely what their patent is based upon).
🙂
The electrodes will go through either Passivation (build up of elements on electrode surface) or Dissolution (reduction of electrode material) or a combination of both.
Meds will be electrocoagulated and be degraded in their function and any metal by products could passivate the electrode reducing its functionality. Depending on the hardness of the water Copper will passivate as copper carbonate on electrodes (white precipitate), lots of fish meds contain copper.
If anyone has an oscilloscope and a twinstar it might be worth hooking them up together to work out the current reversal pulse timings (that's likely what their patent is based upon).
🙂
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
That's what I was thinking 
Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk
Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk
Jack Reilly
Member
Another question , could this device be detrimental to ottoconclis ? Seeing as it kills the algae they feed off and leaves the algae they don’t ? I used this for the last month and my ottos have become skinny (they had previously been thriving ). I add blanched veggies but they never seem to eat that.
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
It shouldn't affect the algae that Ottos feed of. From what I understand the steriliser part happens when cellular algae comes in contact with the first bubble that comes off the diffuser in much the same way as a UV steriliser does it when the algae comes in contact with the glass inside. Once this reaction has taken place which is pretty much instantaneous the only thing left floating about in the tank which you can see are pure o2 bubbles left over from the reaction which are harmless. These things although they kill spores on contact don't affect any algae that are building up on surfaces which is where Ottos etc feed from.
Ottos are notorious finicky feeders at times plus they will strip a tank of all the soft surface algae in no time which is why they need other sources of food. When you first put them in there will be plenty of food on surfaces for them unless you have other types of grazer in there like SAE or similar so they gorge on it pretty quick. If you run a clean tank it's quite difficult to grow algae at the rate they want to eat it which isn't often you'll hear that in this forum. In that way I suppose an algae inhibitor won't help that situation but there's only certain types of algae that Ottos will eat and the inhibitor supposedly destroys them all on a cellular level. Keep up with the different veg and see if you can find one they like in particular. Another trick is to place some round stones in some water on a window sill and wait until they are covered in an algae film then pop them in the tank and let them clean them. There are also known issues I've heard about where if they were starved for too long in transport the bacteria in their stomachs can die off so regardless of how much food they eat they can't break it down and starve anyway. I don't think this can be prevented by keeping them in groups and the bacteria from ones stomach can be passed to another.
Ottos are notorious finicky feeders at times plus they will strip a tank of all the soft surface algae in no time which is why they need other sources of food. When you first put them in there will be plenty of food on surfaces for them unless you have other types of grazer in there like SAE or similar so they gorge on it pretty quick. If you run a clean tank it's quite difficult to grow algae at the rate they want to eat it which isn't often you'll hear that in this forum. In that way I suppose an algae inhibitor won't help that situation but there's only certain types of algae that Ottos will eat and the inhibitor supposedly destroys them all on a cellular level. Keep up with the different veg and see if you can find one they like in particular. Another trick is to place some round stones in some water on a window sill and wait until they are covered in an algae film then pop them in the tank and let them clean them. There are also known issues I've heard about where if they were starved for too long in transport the bacteria in their stomachs can die off so regardless of how much food they eat they can't break it down and starve anyway. I don't think this can be prevented by keeping them in groups and the bacteria from ones stomach can be passed to another.
Sorry for bumping an already old topic.
I dont have the time to read all the pages for this product but i only have 1 question .
Is it an ozone generator or not ? I know that ozone could be very harmful even for us , it is carcinogen.
So, is twinstar the same ?
I am interested to test it but if there are dangers i prefer to keep it away of my room
Thank you
I dont have the time to read all the pages for this product but i only have 1 question .
Is it an ozone generator or not ? I know that ozone could be very harmful even for us , it is carcinogen.
So, is twinstar the same ?
I am interested to test it but if there are dangers i prefer to keep it away of my room
Thank you
Edvet
Member
Basically water hydrolysis H2O -> H2 and O2
Ozone per se is not a carcinogen but can react with other substance to produce possible (note possible) carcinogens. The Twinstar does not generate Ozone. Ozone generation is usually performed by high voltage electrical discharge through air.
See here for BigClive taking an ozone generator apart.
Ozone is a very good steriliser, and is used in swimming pools and big commercial aquariums/penguin pools etc as it can be generated as needed.
So the twinstar produces purely oxygen as it claims ?
Thank you very much Ian for the information!
Very informative!....
Great video....well put over...…
hoggie
Great video....well put over...…
hoggie
I have read nearly all the thread just so I could build my own opinion. Here are my conclusions:
1. No real and "scientific" tests have been carried out so far by an independent party even by experienced scapers. By real test I mean as in with several tanks at the same time with the same protocols in place (same water changes, same ferts, same lighting, same scape, etc etc etc) and with one or even 2 reference groups to compare to. Of course this is something that only people with a lot of hardware would be able to do since it would be costly and time consuming. The closest tests to a "proper test" that I have seen here is the ones carried out by @viktorlantos but still those are far from being fully reliable tests and his conclusions are partially subjective. In fact this is something that should be carried out by the manufacturer itself but clearly they do not seem interested in doing such comprehensive tests and sharing them with the world. I did find a video where they actually made a side by side comparison of two tanks, one with the reactor the other one without it but in all honesty if you look closely that test is far from ideal and leaves place to lots of criticism.
2. Lack of transparency and bipartisanism:
- The person representing TS posting here is fighting tooth and nail to defend the product that he is selling but he keeps saying that Twinstar is not willing to explain the ins and out of how this device works. Understandably so as they do not want to other companies to copy but clearly it does not help in addressing the concerns of people. In fact product a proper test with a reference group would have given all the proof that people are looking for but to this day none have been done by TS.
- George Farmer the founder of this very forum, known and respected Youtuber is also sponsored by TS among other even bigger brands. Nothing wrong with that obviously but his personal opinion on the product would have been interesting specially when he said he would report on it but never did. Below quote was his last one on the subject on this thread:
3. In a nutshell this device "seems" to be more catered to the experienced/professional scaper or the ones that know what they are doing and more specifically during the initial setup of a tank. This seems to leave out 90% of the scapers yet TS does not target the professional specifically so clearly it's a matter of making as much money as possible whether it's fitted to your needs or not.
My conclusion is that I don't need it. Proper husbandry will take care of the algea perhaps even better than an O2 / H generator that turns on/off at specific intervals and will consume electricity (granted not that much). Of course I am still open minded and willing to read and listen what other still have to say, but if after 41 pages this is still not a clear cut case then it most certainly means this product is far from being that useful generally speaking. More of a gimmick.
If anyone feels offended then I am sorry it was not my intention.
1. No real and "scientific" tests have been carried out so far by an independent party even by experienced scapers. By real test I mean as in with several tanks at the same time with the same protocols in place (same water changes, same ferts, same lighting, same scape, etc etc etc) and with one or even 2 reference groups to compare to. Of course this is something that only people with a lot of hardware would be able to do since it would be costly and time consuming. The closest tests to a "proper test" that I have seen here is the ones carried out by @viktorlantos but still those are far from being fully reliable tests and his conclusions are partially subjective. In fact this is something that should be carried out by the manufacturer itself but clearly they do not seem interested in doing such comprehensive tests and sharing them with the world. I did find a video where they actually made a side by side comparison of two tanks, one with the reactor the other one without it but in all honesty if you look closely that test is far from ideal and leaves place to lots of criticism.
2. Lack of transparency and bipartisanism:
- The person representing TS posting here is fighting tooth and nail to defend the product that he is selling but he keeps saying that Twinstar is not willing to explain the ins and out of how this device works. Understandably so as they do not want to other companies to copy but clearly it does not help in addressing the concerns of people. In fact product a proper test with a reference group would have given all the proof that people are looking for but to this day none have been done by TS.
- George Farmer the founder of this very forum, known and respected Youtuber is also sponsored by TS among other even bigger brands. Nothing wrong with that obviously but his personal opinion on the product would have been interesting specially when he said he would report on it but never did. Below quote was his last one on the subject on this thread:
Perhaps he didn't want to give his opinion considering it would have been interpreted as biased due to his sponsorship with Twinstar but then again if he accepted to be sponsored by TS it should because he believes in what they build. So George, it's still not to late to provide your opinion 😉
3. In a nutshell this device "seems" to be more catered to the experienced/professional scaper or the ones that know what they are doing and more specifically during the initial setup of a tank. This seems to leave out 90% of the scapers yet TS does not target the professional specifically so clearly it's a matter of making as much money as possible whether it's fitted to your needs or not.
My conclusion is that I don't need it. Proper husbandry will take care of the algea perhaps even better than an O2 / H generator that turns on/off at specific intervals and will consume electricity (granted not that much). Of course I am still open minded and willing to read and listen what other still have to say, but if after 41 pages this is still not a clear cut case then it most certainly means this product is far from being that useful generally speaking. More of a gimmick.
If anyone feels offended then I am sorry it was not my intention.
Tim Harrison
Member
I think that sums it all up pretty adequately. There does seem to be a distinct lack of evidence with any degree of scientific rigour to substantiate TS's claims; and so far to my knowledge there exists what can only be described as anecdotal evidence...
However, I've discussed the TS with experienced scapers and I think we all pretty much came to the conclusion that it does help with green algae to a degree, and that it perhaps provides a little more wriggle room in an injected tank when it comes to maintaining O2 saturation. But you're right, it's not essential to the functioning of a well kept and healthy tank: so you definitely do not need one. I think I've mentioned that above, possibly more than once.
To be fair to George he has passed comment on the TS many times in his subsequent YouTube videos, and he's the kind of person that takes his integrity pretty seriously. So I doubt he'd have very much to do with the TS if he didn't think it worked on some level or other.
However, I've discussed the TS with experienced scapers and I think we all pretty much came to the conclusion that it does help with green algae to a degree, and that it perhaps provides a little more wriggle room in an injected tank when it comes to maintaining O2 saturation. But you're right, it's not essential to the functioning of a well kept and healthy tank: so you definitely do not need one. I think I've mentioned that above, possibly more than once.
To be fair to George he has passed comment on the TS many times in his subsequent YouTube videos, and he's the kind of person that takes his integrity pretty seriously. So I doubt he'd have very much to do with the TS if he didn't think it worked on some level or other.
Edvet
Member
(no disrespect but how would you feel if your doctor prescribed expensive meds (not covered by insurance) on anecdotal evidence without any degree of scientific evidence? just my viewpoint)
Tim Harrison
Member
That's not a particularly fair analogy. At the end of the day it's just a nonessential gadget. It's not something that's going to ease the suffering of humankind. Nor is the TS, and especially the Chihiros, going to break the bank...
Sure I'd like the manufacturer's claims to be substantiated with more robust science, just like everyone else, but nevertheless, I think the scientific principle behind it is fairly sound...at least.
Either way, you are absolutely right to be concerned with the lack of scientific evidence regarding it's actual effectiveness, and because of that it's obviously still very controversial. I guess you pays your money, you takes your chance 🙂
Sure I'd like the manufacturer's claims to be substantiated with more robust science, just like everyone else, but nevertheless, I think the scientific principle behind it is fairly sound...at least.
Either way, you are absolutely right to be concerned with the lack of scientific evidence regarding it's actual effectiveness, and because of that it's obviously still very controversial. I guess you pays your money, you takes your chance 🙂
