Tranquility - My low tech 186L journey

[MichaelJ]

Got a bit of a mass die off of the Chilli and Galaxy Rasboras. Lost about 20 so far - Doing a large water change and putting the purigen in.

Don’t know what’s caused it (No Planaria or whatever)

Whatever caused it I’m pretty devastated I’m not going to lie. This hobby is awesome and cruel

Sorry about your loss 🙁

Here are some common and less common causes to consider:

1. A spike in Ammonia (NH3)
2. A disease - perhaps from recently introduced livestock
3. A large swing in water parameters
4. Leaching compounds from substrate or hardscape
5. O2 depravation
6. overdosed CO2
7. Contaminated food source
8. a massive drop (or spike) in temperature

If your shrimps are doing OK - which I suppose since you didn't mention them - I would guess 2 is the most likely cause. 🤷‍♂️. For most of the other conditions listed above, the shrimps would be among the first to succumb.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Don’t know what’s caused it (No Planaria or whatever)

It is a possibility, it is probably more likely to be an indirect effect, rather than direct toxicity.

Whatever caused it I’m pretty devastated I’m not going to lie. This hobby is awesome and cruel

There is honestly nothing worse, you tend to blame yourself, even when it is just "circumstances".

I know many just add lots of fish at a time, but I like to do it incrementally if possible, as well as in reverse order of aggression/territorialism. This helps with the bioload as well as aggression etc, although I'm sure you're already aware of this, why not just add one species at a time

That is probably sound advice, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

Got a bit of a mass die off of the Chilli and Galaxy Rasboras. Lost about 20 so far - Doing a large water change and putting the purigen in.

I'd try and maximise oxygen levels, so lift the outlet up, or add an air-stone etc. Low oxygen levels might be the "indirect effect".

You are probably never going to know quite what has happened.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Bradders]

Got a bit of a mass die off of the Chilli and Galaxy Rasboras. Lost about 20 so far - Doing a large water change and putting the purigen in.

Sorry to hear that, mate.

When did the mass die-offs occur (i.e. did you wake up and find them) and was there anything you did before the die-offs (no matter how small?

 

[Maf 2500]

40 Galaxy Rasboras & around 30 Chilli Rasboras for £100 which is a crazily good price

It does make me wonder if there was any correlation between the price of the fish and their health status and longevity.... not meaning to directly point the finger at the fish shop, but surely a possibility to consider?

 

[Spartacus]

Sorry about your loss 🙁

Here are some common and less common causes to consider:

1. A spike in Ammonia (NH3)
2. A disease - perhaps from recently introduced livestock
3. A large swing in water parameters
4. Leaching compounds from substrate or hardscape
5. O2 depravation
6. overdosed CO2
7. Contaminated food source
8. a massive drop (or spike) in temperature

If your shrimps are doing OK - which I suppose since you didn't mention them - I would guess 2 is the most likely cause. 🤷‍♂️. For most of the other conditions listed above, the shrimps would be among the first to succumb.

Cheers,
Michael

Thank you very much indeed Michael.

Two fish were dead when we got them home (9 miles from the LFS) They we’re quite nippy when being caught and the chap said he thought he might of crushed one so I assumed two were hurt during being caught for bagging.

Noticed one dying on Sunday but there was one that was more subdued - until today it was three Chilli Rasboras that had passed. When I came home there was about 10 dead (didn’t notice anything this morning but can’t say I paid a massive amount of notice as it was early)

Think I have lost about 15 Chillis and 20 CPD’s.

I’m pretty gutted this whole project has been my way of coping in life so pretty down.

Shrimp are all fine with no deaths to report.

I measured amonia last night and it was zero - last time I took readings for nitrate / nitrite / PH / KH & GH being fine.

Hi all,

It is a possibility, it is probably more likely to be an indirect effect, rather than direct toxicity.

There is honestly nothing worse, you tend to blame yourself, even when it is just "circumstances".

That is probably sound advice, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

I'd try and maximise oxygen levels, so lift the outlet up, or add an air-stone etc. Low oxygen levels might be the "indirect effect".

You are probably never going to know quite what has happened.

Cheers Darrel

Thank you Darrel - You always strike me as someone who clearly knows what they are talking about and I appreciate everything you do.

That’s the outlets raised right to the top creating loss of oxygen - The fish seem to be behaving “normally” still apprehensive about what awaits tomorrow morning but time will tell.

Sorry to hear that, mate.

When did the mass die-offs occur (i.e. did you wake up and find them) and was there anything you did before the die-offs (no matter how small?

Hello Bradders - Deaths we’re first spotted the day I got them home (2) then 1 the day after. Then it all went downhill today.

I have been dosing No planaria to get rid of some hydra with Friday (day before buying the fish) being the second dose and Sunday the final. Doses were accurate and water changes carried out I didn’t even have much planaria.

As Darrel says I won’t know what happened I just need to look after those little ones that are left as best I can notch it up to a life experience.

It does make me wonder if there was any correlation between the price of the fish and their health status and longevity.... not meaning to directly point the finger at the fish shop, but surely a possibility to consider?

Hello Maf - Anything's possible that’s for sure. The shop has a good reputation I think they are better than others near unless I drive for 4 hours.

I just wonder what to do next.

I’m thinking just to sit it out and see how things develop. I hope that’s it for deaths but I have no idea - I really enjoyed the company of the fish. I’m a bit at a loss but I think just giving it time is for the best.

I don’t even know if I will buy more Rasboras whenever the time comes round. It’s quite expensive to just flush down the toilet 48 hours later.

 

[Maf 2500]

The only thing I would have done differently is wait till after the No Planaria treatment was finished and water-changed out before introducing new livestock. I don't know if it would have made a difference to the outcome but it would have ruled out a possible factor and an element of doubt, no matter how unlikely.

I think you are more trusting of shopkeepers than I am - if they said they crushed a fish while bagging them I would insist they removed the crushed fish or empty the bag and start again. Maybe sounds like they were setting you up to accept a reason for dead fish? I have seen so many dead and dying fish in fish shops..... Admittedly, I am a black-hearted cynic so take that with a pinch of salt!

 

[MichaelJ]

I have seen so many dead and dying fish in fish shops.....

Me too... Last time I went to my LFS I pointed it out to the owner and he said he just can't get good stock anymore... And I know he is trying to use good water - low TDS for soft water stock etc. and feed good live food from a controlled sources - Its really sad 🙁

Thank you Darrel - You always strike me as someone who clearly knows what they are talking about and I appreciate everything you do.

Darrel is one rare and sterling force in our hobby - he reminds me of someone I briefly (all too briefly unfortunately) studied under in Pasadena, California - I am too humble to be more specific than that.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Bradders]

Deaths were first spotted the day I got them home (2) then 1 the day after. Then it all went downhill today.

It very much sounds like what you had came home with you - whether bacterial, transportation stress creating an outbreak or they were already on the way out and you got unlucky.

Were they all happy and fine in the store? Had they been there for a while when you asked before purchase? It would be interesting to know whether the shopkeeper also has his stock due in 48 hours.

 

[Bradders]

Darrel is one rare and sterling force in our hobby - he reminds me of someone I briefly (all too briefly unfortunately) studied under in Pasadena, California

Thank you Darrel - You always strike me as someone who clearly knows what they are talking about and I appreciate everything you do.

You do know that Darrel is an advanced AI BOT right?
Here is one of our members meeting @dw1305 for the first time. (For clarity, Darrel is the huggee, not the hugger).

 

[Spartacus]

It very much sounds like what you had came home with you - whether bacterial, transportation stress creating an outbreak or they were already on the way out and you got unlucky.

Were they all happy and fine in the store? Had they been there for a while when you asked before purchase? It would be interesting to know whether the shopkeeper also has his stock due in 48 hours.

They seemed happy Bradders both the Chilli & Galaxy Rasboras were in the same tank.

In hindsight I exposed myself to a large risk buying such a number. Think I will do purchases of around 15/20 next time.

Not sure if I will buy Galaxy Rasboras again just due to the cost of I have to go to other suppliers. I’m sure they were wild caught as he showed me the price list and talked about deliveries into the country from Singapore etc.

They have probably been in the tank at the store for around 2 weeks. Only 9 miles away so water can’t have been that different.

They looked fine in the tank but paler which I put down to stress. Perhaps in hindsight it was something more.

Bit unsure what to do next to be honest - Tempted to try another fish shop maybe get some Rummy Nose Tetras but in a small amount (say around 10) as I have no idea what’s going on or even if anything has been introduced into the tank from the Rasboras.

Did think last night just to cut my losses and keep it for shrimp only but it seems excessive - It has hit my confidence a bit. Found another 8 dead this morning and other half had reported more.

At this rate I won’t have any left - I’m sad I can cope with that it’s the fish I feel very sorry for. I took them under my wing and failed them.

 

[Bradders]

Bit unsure what to do next to be honest - Tempted to try another fish shop maybe get some Rummy Nose Tetras but in a small amount (say around 10) as I have no idea what’s going on or even if anything has been introduced into the tank from the Rasboras.

Did think last night just to cut my losses and keep it for shrimp only but it seems excessive - It has hit my confidence a bit. Found another 8 dead this morning and other half had reported more.

At this rate I won’t have any left.

I know mate - its just horrible when this happens.

OK, if it was me, this is what I would do.

• Carry on with water changes, increased aeration and don't clean any biomedia (unless flow is too low).
• Accept the situation, and ride it out for now. i.e. do what you can but don't make any new additions or changes.
• Wait for a good few weeks of stability and take stock at that point to give yourself confidence all is back to balance.
• Add new fish at a small rate, no more than 6 smalls or 2 mediums or 1 large, and wait two weeks for balance before adding more.

Don't let these experience beat you. It would be a shame for you to lose confidence and not add more fish. In one way or the other, it happens to al of us.

 

[Gill]

Sorry this happened to you. Had something similar happen a long time ago. And it transpired that the assistant had just been on lunch and had styled his hair while on break with hair gel. And hadn't washed his hands enough not to contaminate the water. So as soon as the glolights were in my water they started dropping very rapidly.
It's strange that the shrimp were not affected by this die off, as they are more fickle than the rasboras are known as. As said though it looks like it was brought back with you, with the fish and took them suddenly. Sometimes it can happen, Once had fish die suddenly when they hadn't advised they'd done a heavy water change with soft water and mine being hard shocked the fish.

If it makes you feel any better, i was stabbed by a Cory over the weekend and had to soak my thumb in VVHot water to neutralize the toxin in the spike.

 

[Spartacus]

Lost another 20 odd today - Resigned to the fact that they will all likely go. I’m noticing a pinkish hue to there belly’s - This one was still alive (only just) when I fished it out.

Shrimps and baby shrimps are very happy.

Thank you so much to all who have offered input and advice. Means a lot to me.

Will reply properly later on tonight 😊

 

[Bradders]

To me, that is not a reddish hue but a loss of fish 'skin'.

Have a look at the blow-up, even though it is of bad quality. Its bacterial.

 

[Spartacus]

To me, that is not a reddish hue but a loss of fish 'skin'.

Have a look at the blow-up, even though it is of bad quality. Its bacterial.

View attachment 223849

I see what you mean Bradders thank you for highlighting it. I am thinking that due to having lost two of the fish before they even entered the tank that something was a miss at the shop. If my tank had the bacteria then there wouldn't have been any dead on arrival I assume.

I know mate - its just horrible when this happens.

OK, if it was me, this is what I would do.

• Carry on with water changes, increased aeration and don't clean any biomedia (unless flow is too low).
• Accept the situation, and ride it out for now. i.e. do what you can but don't make any new additions or changes.
• Wait for a good few weeks of stability and take stock at that point to give yourself confidence all is back to balance.
• Add new fish at a small rate, no more than 6 smalls or 2 mediums or 1 large, and wait two weeks for balance before adding more.

Don't let these experience beat you. It would be a shame for you to lose confidence and not add more fish. In one way or the other, it happens to al of us.

Thanks again Bradders (Amazingly kind & helpful and I truly appreciate it!) I shall follow the steps you have outlined and let the dust settle - The shrimps will enjoy the peace and quiet for a month. Then hopefully by the end of November I can try again but from another shop and in "baby steps" as you advise 🙂

And just want to thank everyone for being there offering help / advice and empathy. What an amazing place to be part of such amazing people!

 

[Spartacus]

Sorry this happened to you. Had something similar happen a long time ago. And it transpired that the assistant had just been on lunch and had styled his hair while on break with hair gel. And hadn't washed his hands enough not to contaminate the water. So as soon as the glolights were in my water they started dropping very rapidly.
It's strange that the shrimp were not affected by this die off, as they are more fickle than the rasboras are known as. As said though it looks like it was brought back with you, with the fish and took them suddenly. Sometimes it can happen, Once had fish die suddenly when they hadn't advised they'd done a heavy water change with soft water and mine being hard shocked the fish.

If it makes you feel any better, i was stabbed by a Cory over the weekend and had to soak my thumb in VVHot water to neutralize the toxin in the spike.

Thanks Gill - I'm OCD when it comes to cross contaminating just in case. I am sorry to hear about the Cory attacking you - Not very nice! Hope you are OK!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Thank you Darrel - You always strike me as someone who clearly knows what they are talking about

I'll be honest, I'm still not great with fish. I've "improved"*, but from a pretty low datum.

..... Partially my reasons for wanting to be a better fish keeper this time was that the first time I kept fish was before the WWW and I used to kill them off with sickening regularity. This time has been better, and I've still managed to kill my fish in a variety of interesting ways, but water quality hasn't been an issue.

When I got to know the late Bob Marklew I began to understand just how <"good proper fish keepers are">.

Have a look at this thread on "Planet Catfish", "Macvsog23" was the <"late Bob Marklew">, my friend, and "Bristol Pleco God" and "Apistomaster" is Larry Waybright, who also has probably forgotten more than I will ever know. <View topic - Gravel or sand for plecos??>

Unfortunately Larry Waybright has <"also recently died">, I never met him in person, but corresponded with him.

You do know that Darrel is an advanced AI BOT right?
Here is one of our members meeting @dw1305 for the first time. (For clarity, Darrel is the huggee, not the hugger).

The secret is out, I am, but don't tell @megwattscreative.

I am thinking that due to having lost two of the fish before they even entered the tank that something was a miss at the shop.

I think you are probably right.

* I haven't really got any better at fish-keeping, I've really got better at creating environments where fish are more likely to survive in for longer without too much intervention.

cheers Darrel

 

[megwattscreative]

Sorry to hear this Spartacus 🙁 I had a similar issue when first adding chili rasbora to my tank. I'm still not entirely sure how many I lost Vs how many were effectively hiding in the tank - I know it was at least 3, but I estimate it could've been up to 11. it's very sad and disconcerting when this happens. To me it sounds like they may have had something in the store - I'm a lot more wary of wild caught stock, or potentially wild caught stock. I've noticed that buying fish directly after shopfloor stock has been refreshed (ie. After a big, international delivery) sometimes results in bringing home wobbly fish. Even from "good" LFS, I think it's worth observing in store and at home. I I will definitely be quarantining all my fish in future.

It sounds like you did everything you could, and you're doing everything right now. I hope you can feel a bit more confident & enjoy the tank soon ❤️

(Ps. Can confirm - Darrel is basically ai/Google. When we were kids we used to point at plants and ask him the Latin names & families and he had the right answer probably 98% of the time.... Or he was making it up and, as kids, we had no idea)

 

[mort]

I'm sorry this is happening.

I would talk to the shop. They might fob you off but they could also try to make it right.

In the video you posted the chilli's looked ok but the galaxy's are very skinny and little fish like that don't have many reserves, so succumb more easily. These are also famous for just dropping dead on mass after import and given their pale colour it doesn't look like they were settled or in great condition. Bacterial infection is a possibility but I think its just poor quality fish/fish not ready to sell.

I'm also a very old school keeper and know that bacteria multiplies exponentially but I still only add a few fish at a time, even in a large tank. Doing this gives the tank a chance to catch up and also helps minimise any problems.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm a lot more wary of wild caught stock, or potentially wild caught stock. I've noticed that buying fish directly after shopfloor stock has been refreshed (ie. After a big, international delivery) sometimes results in bringing home wobbly fish. Even from "good" LFS, I think it's worth observing in store and at home. I I will definitely be quarantining all my fish in future.

I think that is good advice and <"a quarantine tank"> saves a lot of heartache.

I'm also a very old school keeper and know that bacteria multiplies exponentially but I still only add a few fish at a time, even in a large tank. Doing this gives the tank a chance to catch up and also helps minimise any problems.

I think this is sound advice as well.

Or he was making it up and, as kids, we had no idea

At least one observation is true ................

cheers Darrel