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Tom's 60P - Goodbye plants, hello Goldfish

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tom
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Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp

[/quote]
Hey Easer... he's not double dosing as he is using them on alternate days. Essentially therefore, dosing micros daily as most of us do, and macros on alternate days only. You may have missed that bit 😉[/quote]

Didnt miss anything 😉 Was purely mentioning that there is no need for '2 bottles in the shower' if using TPN+.
I realised after i posted that it was toms thread and he certainly doesnt need my advise :lol:
 
Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp

Hey Easer... he's not double dosing as he is using them on alternate days. Essentially therefore, dosing micros daily as most of us do, and macros on alternate days only. You may have missed that bit 😉[/quote]

Didnt miss anything 😉 Was purely mentioning that there is no need for '2 bottles in the shower' if using TPN+.
I realised after i posted that it was toms thread and he certainly doesnt need my advise :lol:[/quote]

Lol. I think from what he wrote that he only wants to dose macro's every other day though. Hence the two bottles 😉 (Bit like not wanting to use the Pantene with conditioner every day I guess, LOL).
 
Re: Tom's 60P - Changes

Mark Evans said:
Looking great Tom. I think though, it's missing something at the back. Any plans for that?....(i may of read over it 😳)
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Thanks Mark, there are stems all down the back but I think they will look odd when grown in. I also wish there was a bit more height in the wood as it looks too low to me. I think my initial stem choice of Pogostomen was not a good one, so I might have to change it if it's not looking right. Just want to get it growing healthy for the time being. After that, I'll get onto the scaping part!

easerthegeezer said:
Didnt miss anything 😉 Was purely mentioning that there is no need for '2 bottles in the shower' if using TPN+.
I realised after i posted that it was toms thread and he certainly doesnt need my advise :lol:
Click to expand...

I'll take all the advice I can get if it works!

Antipofish said:
Lol. I think from what he wrote that he only wants to dose macro's every other day though. Hence the two bottles 😉 (Bit like not wanting to use the Pantene with conditioner every day I guess, LOL).
Click to expand...

Condition every time :shh: :lol:
 
Re: Tom's 60P - Changes

Everything's still going yellow or brown :/ The HC looks awful. Now dosing EI macros and TPN trace CO2 at 3bps and seem to be blown around well enough.

Lights are now 30" above the substrate which is probably the lowest light intensity I've ever used, even for low tech. Could it actually be too little light, causing diatoms and yellowing of leaves? I really don't understand why I can't get anything right any more!
 
Re: Tom's 60P - Clive?

i may be wrong mate but i have always found plants under low light to be a darker green than under high light, something to do with more chlorophyll to use available light?? just a guess mind. I would be surprised if low light could be the cause of yellowing or diatoms.

how long are the lights on for mate?
 
Re: Tom's 60P - Clive?

Hi all,
i may be wrong mate but i have always found plants under low light to be a darker green than under high light, something to do with more chlorophyll to use available light??
Click to expand...
Yes and no, depends very much on the plant. A plant that is adapted to low light like a Bolbitis, Microsorum, Cryptocoryne, most mosses etc. will be dark green in low light, as they have a lot of chlorophyll to make sure that all photons are captured. If you place them in higher light they don't have any genetic plasticity to reduce their chlorophyll levels and energy interception, and the extra energy damages the leaf, giving leaf scorch etc.. If you place these plants in situations where they don't get enough PAR to grow, they just die very slowly, and the leaves remain green

Plants that are naturally from lighter conditions (and particularly those that would ideally grows as emergent or emersed) are different, they have much more ability to regulate their chlorophyll production. Clive wrote in <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20184>
On the other hand, the leaves at the bottom improve their photosynthetic efficiency by allocating more chlorophyll per square inch within those leaves. The leaves at the top of the tank, which are exposed to higher PAR levels, actually reduce their photosynthetic efficiency and produce pigments which fluoresce and reflect the high light energy to protect themselves from high photonic energy.
Click to expand...
If you place a plant, that has a potentially fast growth rate, in a situation where temperature, nutrients and CO2 aren't limiting, its growth rate will depend upon the amount of PAR. At high levels of light it will convert more carbon and nitrogen into plant material and grow more quickly.

If you then place that plant in a situation where it don't get enough PAR to grow, it will still throw-out new shoots, but these will become progressively more spindly (due to the action of auxins on the cell walls) and paler (etiolated) due to the conversion of chlorophyll to the yellow protochlorophyll (this is initially reversible).

cheers Darrel
 
Re: Tom's 60P - Clive?

Here's a shot of the mess at the moment - the tank went through it's first diatom bloom as expected and returned to normal. This is the second bloom, presumably due to everything dying. There is a rated 1100 lph now, with the powerhead right under the lily. I have found this best for distribution and there is a decent circular movement around the tank. I tried the powerhead further towards the back wall which resulted in the right side of the tank being one large dead-spot.

IMG_6206.jpg

Here's my lovely lawn :/

IMG_6207.jpg

There is no sign of CO2 related algae in the tank, and I am up to 3bps which seems to be distributed well down the side and along the back of the tank. Everything was growing well to start with, putting out lots of good shoots and spreading. The moss did great too, but suddenly everything went yellow and the diatoms appeared.
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

Remind us; what's your water? Tap? RO? Softened?

Can you get hold of a PAR meter? 30" suspended lighting seems very high. Although I've just set up a low-maint tank for a client with a PAR of less than 5 at the substrate. Mind you, only crypts and ferns.
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

It's RO now. I was using tap, but I've been trying to eliminate the problem. Our normal tap water is softened and is no good for plants, but our outdoor tap is plain. The reason for RO was that every tank I've had success with has either been RO or rain, never tap. I thought I'd eliminate my tap water as a possible problem.

I wouldn't know where to get a PAR meter without buying one. I moved the lights up during the first diatom bloom, but when that died down the the problems started and I am now in the second diatom bloom with a major Cherry Shrimp and plant die-off. Even the Pinnatifida is now on it's way out after growing brilliantly for a couple of weeks.

I was wondering whether too low light could cause these problems but the question wasn't answered. I haven't lowered the light unit again for fear of the diatoms going out of control so it's kind of a catch 22 if it's a light problem!
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

Just throwing ideas out there... have you considered changing the method of co2 introduction to an inline or similar??
Only reason i mention it is that i was running ceramic in tank diffusers and was struggling, put an inline on and there has been a massive improvement. Inline's seem to provide a larger margin of error 🙄

Might be worth a try if you have something else handy..??

What a frustrating hobby we have at times!
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

I have an UP atomizer, but it blocked last time after a month and I've not got it to work since. The tubes just popped off afterwards, and de-scaler/bleach didn't seem to clear it up.

Ceramic diffusers shouldm't have any problem working in-tank, and with the force of water I have hitting the 3bps micro-bubbles, plenty of CO2 should be dissolving. They are being blown right round the tank.
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

I cant help feeling this stemmed from when you lost all 20 shrimp last month. Can you attribute anything to how you might have introduced them Tom ? Could they have been subject to some form of contamination that they brought into the tank with them ?
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

I don't know that the shrimp could have caused the plant deaths. They were doing a great job with the initial diatom bloom, and from then on on were constantly cleaning the substrate, looking nice and healthy. Then suddenly, all gone. The Otocinclus is still in top health with a nice fat belly.

I removed the shrimp too quickly for them to have induced the diatoms, and the filter has been regularly maintained (obviously not under tap).

I'm now having another go with the atomizer and de-scaler. Will try and rig up a spraybar for it with my powerhead, and see if that's any better.
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

Im just amazed and very perplexed (although happy to admit I am still learning so not best placed to offer an educated solution yet). It seemed like a perfect setup 🙁 You've obviously been doing this long enough to have the tenacity to continue though, but I do feel for you. It can be disheartening when things constantly go wrong.
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

Those are seiru stone right? They will negate any RO added. It is calcium carbonate rock and it will buffer your tank to incredible KH levels but I do not think you keep there any soft water plant like Toninas so you are fine.

Those cherries you added too soon I think. Is it amazonia soil? I failed 2x with amazonia with shrimp I do not know why there is something shrimp do no like and it takes ages to get it suitable for them. So try again with few cherries they will clean diatom very fast. Maybe better than Amanos.

Then your light is too far. These grolux or whatever tubes you have have less par than daylight maybe by half. If my seneye was measuring correctly. So they are ok to go 10-15 cm from surface. Give it 6 hour photo period.

Your pinnifitida will become problem once amazonia get's depleted. And in my case it took only 8 weeks. It is more potassium hungry than echinodorus species so you need to doze accordingly. They do better in medium light than high light so try to shade them with other plants and increase K.

I never cured diatom with low light instead I added more light and shrimp + enough Co2 and nutritients.
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

Hard luck Tom, think it might all be down to CO2, I just don't see how it can always turn out like that!
 
Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.

One thing to the shrimp death. It is linked to seyru stone. As they increase GH and KH over week + your dozing, then you do water change and you make rapid TDS change in your tank. You give it RO water 90/10 so TDS 30 maybe.. stones will increase it to 250+ over week then you do 50% water change and your TDS is suddenly half. So what happens to shrimp cells? They explode under osmotic shock and wave bye bye. I removed seiru stones from every tank where I want to keep shrimp even simple cherries. 50% changes would be a killer. My TDS movement in fully high tech tank is +-30-40 which I found somewhat safe.
 
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