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Tom's 60P - Goodbye plants, hello Goldfish

Thanks for your help,

I am aware of where the diatoms came from - it's the previous problems I had trouble with. These turned out to be low CO2, despite me injecting what I thought should be plenty. Because I didn't have any CO2-related algae, I discounted that as a cause. Then, as the plants suffered, they broke down and caused the diatoms. I am comfortable with diatoms during the initial stages of a setup, as they go fairly quickly (and did). It's what happened after that I was unable to control. Initially the plants had plenty of reserves, but due to a lack of CO2 that actually dissolved they couldn't keep up. Switching to an atomizer did help, but I think the damage was already done.

Tom
 
Nice said:
If you want to have success by setup up a planted tank, take a look at his useful article (in my opinion) : http://www.naturalaquario.com/?page_id=884
Click to expand...

Interesting article. A few things I'd change though.

Tom. Sorry to hear this issue your having. It's painful as I had a similar episode, Until I changed a couple of things. Now life is peachy.

You'll bounce back I'm sure. You know you can do it, it's just about finding that 'sweet spot'

I'd offer advise, but i know you know what to do. :thumbup:
 
Tom said:
What did you change Mark? Atomizer and drop EI?

Considering the ADA approach again, with lean substrate.
Click to expand...

I pretty much ditched EI, and switched to TPN+ Small amounts too. My flow is significantly less than normal. Light intensity is low. I guess you could say that it's a similar regime to the ADA way of doing things.

Co2 is injected by an in-line diffuser.

I do rely heavily on the substrate.
 
Mark Evans said:
Tom said:
What did you change Mark? Atomizer and drop EI?

Considering the ADA approach again, with lean substrate.
Click to expand...

I pretty much ditched EI, and switched to TPN+ Small amounts too. My flow is significantly less than normal. Light intensity is low. I guess you could say that it's a similar regime to the ADA way of doing things.

Co2 is injected by an in-line diffuser.

I do rely heavily on the substrate.
Click to expand...

Hi Mark, relying on the substrate is fine, and to be honest I think its a good thing. How long do you think that the substrate would support your kind of tank husbandry ? I am asking, because I know that normally your tanks are not that long lived it seems (which I also envy 😉.

Also, despite low light (which I have always understood to be the driving force of plant growth) you achieve amazing growth rates. What do you attribute this to ? Am I misunderstanding things perhaps (I am still a noob after all): does CO2 have a big influence on plant growth too ? Do you have high rates of CO2 injection ?

And finally, when you say low light, do you mean low intensity but with longer photoperiods ?

Cheers mate. :thumbup:
 
Mark Evans said:
Nice said:
If you want to have success by setup up a planted tank, take a look at his useful article (in my opinion) : http://www.naturalaquario.com/?page_id=884
Click to expand...

Interesting article. A few things I'd change though.
Click to expand...

Like what? for example?

Mark Evans said:
pretty much ditched EI, and switched to TPN+ Small amounts too. My flow is significantly less than normal. Light intensity is low. I guess you could say that it's a similar regime to the ADA way of doing things.

Co2 is injected by an in-line diffuser.

I do rely heavily on the substrate.
Click to expand...

I dont think that this is the way ADA doing things.

Well ADA now is all about marketing...and there is no mucth information about how takashi amano have learn the things he knows now and why he have devolep the ADA products, all you now about ADA is that you need to buy ADA and it will work, and thats all. He have learned the way we do, and let me tell you, one of the things Amano learn, is that you have to get NH4, NO2 and NO3 almost ZERO, and of coure i mean ZERO on water tests. When you get a 10mg/l NO3 in you water test, that really A LOT!!!!

If you bought early books of Amano he does tell you that! So when i see people adding nitrogen on the tank, i get scared!!!

regards
 
Nice said:
Like what? for example?
Click to expand...

Throw the test kits in the bin for starters. Reduce photo period, and increase the height of the light.

Antipofish said:
Hi Mark, relying on the substrate is fine, and to be honest I think its a good thing. How long do you think that the substrate would support your kind of tank husbandry ? I am asking, because I know that normally your tanks are not that long lived it seems (which I also envy .

Also, despite low light (which I have always understood to be the driving force of plant growth) you achieve amazing growth rates. What do you attribute this to ? Am I misunderstanding things perhaps (I am still a noob after all): does CO2 have a big influence on plant growth too ? Do you have high rates of CO2 injection ?

And finally, when you say low light, do you mean low intensity but with longer photoperiods ?
Click to expand...

My lighting is on for just 6 hours daily. On start up 5 hours for 2 weeks.

It's a 150 MH but ADA. The output is visibly noticeable when compared to say, my Geissmann or my arcadia pendant.

I'm a big believer in metal halide and have major success with it, with little or no algae. It's about the height of the lamp.

Co2 is steady. According to drop checker, it's maybe 25-30PPm I don't inject nowhere near what i used to.

If substrate starts to run low on ferts, then the easy option is to inject root tabs.

Sorry to steer away from your thread Tom.
 
Well i never been in Japan to see ADA headquarters, i almost now for sure that there is at least 10hour Sun light on ADA windows Gallery in Japan 😀 , and all aquariums are awesome and no algae! My opinion, and ADA aquajornal online, it is nitrogen compounds that brings algae. 🙂

In early ADA amano books, there was a lot of information, and one of most important was some graphics showing evolution on NH4 NO2 and NO3. Interesting to see that all amazing aquariums had ZERO levels of NH4 NO2 and NO3.

If you have high levels of nutrients and only 5 hours light, it surely will help prevent algae. But from what i can see all amazing Amano tanks have 10 hours light!

But let me tell you, i'm not an expert, i'm just saying what o learn from ADA aquajornal online. 😳


"Sorry to steer away from your thread Tom"

Cheers
 
Mark Evans said:
My lighting is on for just 6 hours daily. On start up 5 hours for 2 weeks.

It's a 150 MH but ADA. The output is visibly noticeable when compared to say, my Geissmann or my arcadia pendant.
You mean its noticably better/more intense ?

I'm a big believer in metal halide and have major success with it, with little or no algae. It's about the height of the lamp.
By this I presume (for clarity) that you mean higher above the surface... thus using high output but keeping the PAR lower due to the extra height ?

Co2 is steady. According to drop checker, it's maybe 25-30PPm I don't inject nowhere near what i used to.
Would that equate to a lime green at lights on and remaining so until after lights out by means of CO2 on and off timing ?

If substrate starts to run low on ferts, then the easy option is to inject root tabs.
Absolutely... so that makes the substrate suitable for a longer term project also.

Sorry to steer away from your thread Tom.
I am hoping Tom wont mind 8) but ditto Tom... hope you don't mind this side discussion. I am finding it very useful and I am sure others will too. Apart from anything else its giving me an excuse to get a MH hehe.
Click to expand...
 
Hey Tom, sorry to hear about the melt. Based on everything you've tried, I really can't tell whats the cause of all these problems you're having. Nothing makes people smile more than a bunch of nice fat goldfish though 🙂
 
Cheers Tom,
Sorry to hear that the tank had a hard start.
However Diatom comes sometime and we had to deal with it. The goood thing is that, this is only a starter algae. When it's die it's never come back. So i always tell to my clients to have some patience. The tank may look bad with it, or very bad, but with a few things you can speed up the cure.

For a 60P tank with 15-20 small size amano shrimp or 10-12 large one would help a lot! I prefer the small ones as the large may will escape from this small tank.
If you do not see changes and the algae is quicker than your cleaning crew, then switch strategy and do a short blackout for a few days. An UV lamp would help also at the same time. Usually what's left the cleaning crew will eliminate shortly.

This is not about ferts really like Nice said. This happens sometime with ADA ferts too. Usually the majority of the HC tank got it at the start. Seen more with Amazonia soil.

Still i can tell you from our and our clients tank that, from every 10 tank 2-3 got this. The rest never. An it's not about magical ferts, soils, light etc.

Another thing which might worth to check, that with Seiryu and HC combo this has much higher ratio. I am more thinking about the large hardness changes as one of the additional reasons. Even if you use full RO with this much stone in a 60P hardness can go up heavily along the week causing extra stress for the plants. I love this stone, but but need extra care to keep the tank going. I do have 2 tanks now with similar stone. And in a 60P where we have like 30KG of them pushes up the 10TDS water to 330! in a week. That become harder then our tap water. I also faced similar issue with my latest scape: http://www.flickr.com/photos/viktorlant ... hotostream where i also use full RO and i see that on my plants that the large fluctations in hardness really vissible on plants.

Anyway sorry for the long post. 😉 The algae is our friend. :lol: Teach us more than anything in this hobby. So next time no need a restart if things goes bad.

By the way the upcoming months does not help to any HC keepers. So start to turn on the air/water conditioners, to avoid melting/roting. We already did that as we've got 30+ celsius for this weekend. 😉 :thumbup:
 
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