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TMC Sig 600 Twinstar 600s Sump build

Your temp is a bit on the low side and if it was me i'd bring it up to about 22deg, each temp extreme will probably make the fish a bit lethargic, co2 could also be a reason for them not being as active with some needing time to adapt in my experience so far (ottos especially)

Concentrate on doing a pH profile to get the co2 spot on and dose 4ml ferts and see how you get on, rule out 1 by 1 and you'll sort it

Try to forget about excess ferts being an issue mate as it'll just hinder you addressing the problem, many of us dose EI which is well over what you're dosing with no green water or algae issues

Yeah good advice mate thanks.

Temps I think have been hard to stabilise since using a sump for some reason it’s colder in the tank as it has to travel up after.

Algae colouring the water do you think or something else? I’m thinking of using another Chihiros steriliser in there anyway soon.

If co2 all fish would be struggling wouldn’t they? Like I say it doesn’t seem like the drop checker is showing much - I’m on about 2-2.5 bps on co2 and sump degasses some too.

The change in behavior is odd though and fish swimming losing balance as if ill? Fish are very skittish too the Rummys but could be the species too?

Cheers


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any changing parameters or extremes will affect the fish and not all will be as sensitive as each other, i'd just work on getting consistency with the basics first before looking elsewhere and maybe over complicating things

temp/co2/waterchanges can all affect fish health obviously so rule them out and if still not right then at least you have confidence to start looking elsewhere, and i've had the same fish in the same tank but with 2 different scapes, they behaved very different in both setups so the skittish behavior isn't a worry but the losing balance and swimming issues are (not an expert by any means on this so maybe someone else can help)

remember your wood will leach tannins and colour your water as well but is usually more brown than green
 
ferts won't cause issues with fish unless you go to extremes (as in empty the whole bottle in) so i'd look elsewhere if you have fish dying (random fish now and again can be normal but a pattern obviously shows something is wrong), precautionary large water change never really goes a miss

the lush max ferts are quite similar to TNC complete but with more magnesium (x4) but nearly half Phosphate, saying that the TNC dosing for high tech is 30ml a week

if you read up on EI dosing then you'll realise excess ferts are not your issue and i'd try 4ml daily and see how you get on


recommended doses on all of these ferts are usualy quite conserrvative when we are looking at fully planted tanks.

Are you dosing 2ml daily? As stated above 2ml daily should not cause the fish any problem at all. I would be dosing about 6ml daily in a tank like yours with CO2.

From reading the symptoms of swimming upside down, lethargic etc allied with the BBA in the tank it immediately says to me CO2!!! Can you put a picture up from the front showing where the inflow/outflow and drop checker are. Is the drop checker filled with dKH4 reference solution allied with Bromo blue?

Added to that IF it is CO2 then it would be strange for CO2 to affect the plants and algae to occur however........IF (not saying it is) the tank is being pumped full of CO2 to the point where fish are struggling and there is plenty of light above it may well be that the plants need a lot more than 2ml daily to keep up with the light they are receiving.

On the note of the fert separating. Can you see through the bottom of the solution bottle? Is there white substance there. Is the solution kept in a dark and cool place? How long did you initially mix it for?

I doubt the fert itself would cause green water. I suspect it is much more likely a collection of things and the tank isn't quite dialled in.

I will keep an eye on your thread though ;)
 
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ah i read the magnesium as 0.08 and not 0.8 (read the iron amount as it was right next to it). To give EI dosing TNC suggest 30ml per week hence my reference above

definitely up ferts as you're pretty low for a co2 tank imo
 
ah i read the magnesium as 0.08 and not 0.8 (read the iron amount as it was right next to it). To give EI dosing TNC suggest 30ml per week hence my reference above

definitely up ferts as you're pretty low for a co2 tank imo

I edited my post because I looked on TNC site and it gave different analysis numbers for Mn than the label on the bottle in the Amazon ad. Maybe they have changed the ratios but there are differences between the bottle label and the analysis tab on their site. for example on the bottle label pictures in Amazon, Mn (Manganese) is .118. On their tab it is 0.018.

Basically the Lush Max is lower concentrated than the TNC in NPK and Mg but the same for traces other than iron which is slightly higher.

I suspect the .018 on the tab of the TNC website is correct and that both the Lush and TNC use the same "base" trace element mix.
 
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Just linking to a post from @plantbrain (Tom Barr) on his site thebarrrerport r.e. Green water. I have no experience with sump systems but maybe it could be to do with filtration or quite simply the tank being newly setup? Text from that post here, link with full post and the whole thread below the text:

"GW cannot be water changed away nor nutrient limited away.

UV, Diatom, Micron filter(5mic or so work well), Daphnia, blackout sort of work.

Good biofiltration, add more media, mulm etc to a tank.
New tanks that are not cycled and have NH4 will always get GW if they have high light/CO2 as well."

https://barrreport.com/threads/green-water-help.100/#post-783

It isn't a problem I've ever encountered so I can't help you with experience of sorting it.
 
Thanks guys I need to keep an eye out I think.

Will post a video here going over the tank setup but really can’t see anything that’s changed too much other than what I’ve said but clearly I must have done something!

I swear when it first set up the fish and tank balance was bob on.

Sump is full of sponge and media and ammonia reading 0. But fish showed signs of swim bladder disease every time - swimming around upside and circles etc. fish always been shy and I wonder if current is making them not want to swim against it, weird though they don’t go near the plants. Neon tetras have all split up now and hiding around the tank. Used to be together.

My tank is also full of snails now lol.

Plants are doing pretty well but fish are shyer, yet runny nose are known for discoloring when water is bad and their noses are all very red indeed. So I’m a bit baffled by it.

This is where they reside and the drop checker and what the mixture looks like. I keep in on the sump in the cabinet :) using brom solution same as my other tank. It’s at opposite ends to the co2

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This is the mixture of the ferts mate, mould on top and not fully mixed
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Why would it be moldy? Could that be infecting the fish? Either way you can see the sediment issue I mentioned and this is after a few mixes with DI water. It mixes temporarily then seems to come back. Maybe I should mix a fresh batch and hand dose for a few weeks to keep an eye on it?




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Is it definitely DI you are using? Maybe try a different brand. You shouldn't get mould in a solution that isn't ancient. All of these ferts from any supplier will have a mould inhibitor in them.

Something going wrong with the mix in that bottle I suspect. It looks very light in colour to me although it may be the background making it appear like that.

Is the solution kept in a cupboard away from the light? Chelates can degrade over time when they are exposed to too much light.
 
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Is it definitely DI you are using? Maybe try a different brand. You shouldn't get mould in a solution that isn't ancient. All of these ferts from any supplier will have a mould inhibitor in them.

Something going wrong with the mix in that bottle I suspect. It looks very light in colour to me although it may be the background making it appear like that.

Is the solution kept in a cupboard away from the light? Chelates can degrade over time when they are exposed to too much light.

Yeah bought from Asda so it’s DI for batteries it said. I’ll check it again Incase it has anything else in it. So does this have mould inhibitor in there too? No light in the cupboard mate no apart from a small blue led but only mixed this few weeks ago too!

Yeah I thought the same it was a darker black initially. Clearly plants are using some ferts in there but fish were not happy with something.

Surely the mould wouldn’t give the fish bladder illness would it?

Since taking it out fish are swimming again but co2 also went off and they are swimming more so not sure what one is upsetting them. I would have though 2bps/3bps wasn’t too much.


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Yeah bought from Asda so it’s DI for batteries it said. I’ll check it again Incase it has anything else in it. So does this have mould inhibitor in there too? No light in the cupboard mate no apart from a small blue led but only mixed this few weeks ago too!

Yeah I thought the same it was a darker black initially. Clearly plants are using some ferts in there but fish were not happy with something.

Surely the mould wouldn’t give the fish bladder illness would it?

Since taking it out fish are swimming again but co2 also went off and they are swimming more so not sure what one is upsetting them. I would have though 2bps/3bps wasn’t too much.


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Yes it has a mould inhibitor in it.

DI water is DI water. It is just I have had one before that wasn't right so it messed up my 4dKH calculations.

Mould won't hurt fish.

I would think the CO2 going off is what the fish are happier with. Don't focus on bubbles. your 2bps might be my 4bps or vice versa dependent on the bubble counter. A bubble is a bubble but bubbles can be different sizes. Your bubble counter might have bubbles twice the size of someone else's. The bubble counter is merely a tool for you to eyeball what your setup is doing.
 
Yes it has a mould inhibitor in it.

DI water is DI water. It is just I have had one before that wasn't right so it messed up my 4dKH calculations.

Mould won't hurt fish.

I would think the CO2 going off is what the fish are happier with. Don't focus on bubbles. your 2bps might be my 4bps or vice versa dependent on the bubble counter. A bubble is a bubble but bubbles can be different sizes. Your bubble counter might have bubbles twice the size of someone else's. The bubble counter is merely a tool for you to eyeball what your setup is doing.

Thanks mate, I do turn it off with solenoid overnight :)

Just taken water out again and very green once again. Lots of tiny little worm like things swimming too and sucked loads of the gravel up to clean it well.

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Yes it has a mould inhibitor in it.

DI water is DI water. It is just I have had one before that wasn't right so it messed up my 4dKH calculations.

Mould won't hurt fish.

I would think the CO2 going off is what the fish are happier with. Don't focus on bubbles. your 2bps might be my 4bps or vice versa dependent on the bubble counter. A bubble is a bubble but bubbles can be different sizes. Your bubble counter might have bubbles twice the size of someone else's. The bubble counter is merely a tool for you to eyeball what your setup is doing.

A few days later and much blacker now!!

Still sediment on the bottom though...

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A few days later and much blacker now!!

Still sediment on the bottom though...

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Is this a fresh one?

And looking at the previous mix. Is that neon blue / purple light reflected off the bottle the light you talked about inside your cabinet?

Maybe clutching at straws with the light / chelate issue but I'm just trying to rule things out.
 
OK. On Wednesday night I made up 2 x 500ml solutions. One without the extra iron, just the standard trace amount and the other with the extra iron in it. I didn't bother with DI, just using my Lincolnshire liquid rock water :)

This water is ph7.6 out of the tap, 8.4ph degassed (probably not applicable for this test because the bottles are sealed.) ºKH (German) is 16. Clark is 19.

My Tap water report states average Iron is <12ug per litre (maximum reading was 125 ug/l)
Phosphorus average is .589 ug/l (maximum reading was .709 ug/l)

Reason I am adding the above is that for precipitation we are looking at P and Fe. Thus if we use DI water we are using water free of both of these (and other nutrients) so we know what is in the mix. By using tap water I am risking the Fe and P within my tap water causing a problem when added on top of the Fe and P in the Lush Max mix.

These pictures are 3 days old. That is Guiness in the tankard, not fertiliser, for a colour gauge.


This first pic has both bottles. Solution is no 5 days old, still dark. The bottle on the right is the one with the extra Fe added.
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Tipping the bottles up and we can see there is no sediment.
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So at this point I am struggling to replicate the precipitation (over 5 days) even if I use tap water with no control of the "extras" within the tap water!!!

The process I use for making this up is to put the powder into the bottle via a funnel. Then pour in the 500ml water. Put lid on and give a good old shake. At this point it won't have all dissolved yet so I leave it on top of a radiator, shaking it every 5 minutes or so until all the ingredients are dissolved. It helps to dissolve when it gets a little bit warmer. Then it is stored in a dark cupboard inside a box so no light gets to it at all, other than when using the bottle.
 
Is this a fresh one?

And looking at the previous mix. Is that neon blue / purple light reflected off the bottle the light you talked about inside your cabinet?

Maybe clutching at straws with the light / chelate issue but I'm just trying to rule things out.

Fresh one yeah.

All black just sediment in the bottom. I put up the pics of how I made it and it’s not stored in the cupboard with the led now.

The led is literally tiny though like a single bulb that’s blue very dim.


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Tank update-

Thanks for the new Ferts :) - much appreciated.

Yours definitely seems darker than mine does so I will keep updated with how things go here.

I’ve kinda lost love for the sump now as it keeps sucking shrimp in that climb over the overflow, and it so I think I’m going to go with an Eheim pro 3 and try again.

My HC seems a bit sad and not great so I will keep dosing and trim it back a bit I think. I was thinking about another Koralia to increase flow?

Twinstar light is a beast yeah but great growth tbh on plants. Still having Rummy Nose dying off really bizarrely - I can only think it maybe 90% water changes need to be 70% for a while but odd as they were fine for ages.
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OK. On Wednesday night I made up 2 x 500ml solutions. One without the extra iron, just the standard trace amount and the other with the extra iron in it. I didn't bother with DI, just using my Lincolnshire liquid rock water :)

This water is ph7.6 out of the tap, 8.4ph degassed (probably not applicable for this test because the bottles are sealed.) ºKH (German) is 16. Clark is 19.

My Tap water report states average Iron is <12ug per litre (maximum reading was 125 ug/l)
Phosphorus average is .589 ug/l (maximum reading was .709 ug/l)

Reason I am adding the above is that for precipitation we are looking at P and Fe. Thus if we use DI water we are using water free of both of these (and other nutrients) so we know what is in the mix. By using tap water I am risking the Fe and P within my tap water causing a problem when added on top of the Fe and P in the Lush Max mix.

These pictures are 3 days old. That is Guiness in the tankard, not fertiliser, for a colour gauge.


This first pic has both bottles. Solution is no 5 days old, still dark. The bottle on the right is the one with the extra Fe added.
View attachment 122490

Tipping the bottles up and we can see there is no sediment.
View attachment 122492

So at this point I am struggling to replicate the precipitation (over 5 days) even if I use tap water with no control of the "extras" within the tap water!!!

The process I use for making this up is to put the powder into the bottle via a funnel. Then pour in the 500ml water. Put lid on and give a good old shake. At this point it won't have all dissolved yet so I leave it on top of a radiator, shaking it every 5 minutes or so until all the ingredients are dissolved. It helps to dissolve when it gets a little bit warmer. Then it is stored in a dark cupboard inside a box so no light gets to it at all, other than when using the bottle.

Hi mate

Just an update. Started seeing neons acting oddly again and dying too after a few days of using the ferts again. Again not saying it is them, just that’s the pattern.

There are other things I’m looking at like a bacteria still being present.

Also notice the one I mixed last week that I showed you that was black still has sediment now mimicked the previous batch I made as a urine like colour.

The one you sent me if still black however.

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Bit confused :/


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Do you think it’s worth just cutting out the fertilizer completely for a few days and trying it without?


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General tank update too, as loosing fish I’ve just remade my sump. Will silicone the glass in soon but much happier with it now. Added a chamber on the input left to create pressure.

That then flows through my homemade basket full of bio and sponge, and then returns on the right side :)

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Did you use the mixed solution I sent you? Did the fish react with that? If you didn't use it try using that until we find out why your mixes are going funny.

Can you remind me how much you are dosing? How long the photoperiod is and the CO2 on/offs.

I have a 140ltr setup pretty similar in terms of size. If I were running your tank I would probably be using circa 6-8ml daily, 8 hour photoperiod and CO2 would come on 1 hour before lights and off 3 hours before the end of lights.

On your mix, can you use an old squash bottle or something? Change the container you are using. 1 litre squash bottles are ideal. I mix it in the same bottle, close the lid, keep shaking andn open/close the lid to release any pressure, until it is all mixed in.

Try using your tap water instead of the DI that you bought. I have had some DI before that wasn't right.

Obviously something going wrong if the ones I sent you are still black. They were made up at the same time as the packs you have used there so only difference is the container and the water.
 
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