TMC Sig 600 Twinstar 600s Sump build

[zozo]

Also - keep this foreign traveller or ditch him? Haha




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Lookes like a lovely little cute <Physella acuta>.. 🙂

 

[Something Fishy]

Lookes like a lovely little cute <Physella acuta>.. 🙂

As long as they don’t fill my tank up Zozo! Haha. Doesn’t seem to be eating much algae either! Sump proved a doddle to do a water change with so I’m kinda happy so far.

Not sure on the co2 evaporation but sponge in the overflow was a good shout to prevent bubble and degassing!


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[Something Fishy]

Lookes like a lovely little cute <Physella acuta>.. 🙂

Tank updates coming! All cycled and readings at 0 - so added a few Amanos and Ottos, and a shoal of Rummy Nose 🙂

One of the Ottos went over the weir sadly and was caught in the sponge long enough not to make it - grr!

I noticed that the overflow box on the back at one point was level with the tank water on the inside side - do you know what causes that level to change? It stayed at the top for a while but now it’s dropped again by about an inch both sides.

Do you know if the valve on the outside box affects the levels at all Zozo or anybody else? I think this combined with the dosing pump on the top and I’m starting to trust this a bit more. I am seeing a lot of degassing as the drop into the box from the inside has increase.

I presume the level in the sump makes no difference?

I do need a top up box as the sump level in winter time now is dropping a fair bit!


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[Something Fishy]

Updates with Rummy nose Amanos Ottos added, Super Red on the right added too and some more Buce I grabbed when I stopped by Aqua Eseentials.










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[zozo]

Do you know if the valve on the outside box affects the levels at all

DO you have a decent picture of tne complete overflow, or a link to the vendors site?.. Without it it, anybody can only guess on build air castles.. 🙂

I presume the level in the sump makes no difference?

Depends 🙂 at one point the pump will run in a too low level.. Depends again on the pump, if it doesn't have an overheat protection it wont run dry for long.

 

[Something Fishy]

DO you have a decent picture of tne complete overflow, or a link to the vendors site?.. Without it it, anybody can only guess on build air castles.. 🙂



Depends 🙂 at one point the pump will run in a too low level.. Depends again on the pump, if it doesn't have an overheat protection it wont run dry for long.

That’s the one I got Zozo - he also added a valve to the top of the outer drain tube you can see there.

https://deepreef.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=50

I’m just trying to ascertain if the water should fall into the overflow or be level with it, I’m not sure what affects that really.

Like I say it was level before but then it gradually started to revert to ‘falling’ in again.

Cheers


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[zozo]

I do not see any valve on the outside box..


If it is bellow the bulkhead, than it indeed regulates the downflow and if it is pumped in faster than it drains it will rise in that chamber. But if it has a valve there, than it doesn't have much usefull function. Anyway if this overflow is doing strange things it simply is running at the end of it's capacity. (That goes actualy for any type of overflow.) Than trim your pump capacity down to make it run smooth.

I actualy do also not see any real advantage in the downward knee inside the outer box.. And the water always has to rise a bit higher than that the top of the knee to finaly flow away.

Trimming the pump is easy, put a T above it in the sump and a valve on that T, valve fully closed full power to tank, slowly open valve and some water will run back into sump and less to the tank. This way the pump is not restricted in flow it keeps running full capacity and you still can reduce waterflow to the tank and regulate it very precise..

 

[Something Fishy]

I do not see any valve on the outside box..


If it is bellow the bulkhead, than it indeed regulates the downflow and if it is pumped in faster than it drains it will rise in that chamber. But if it has a valve there, than it doesn't have much usefull function. Anyway if this overflow is doing strange things it simply is running at the end of it's capacity. (That goes actualy for any type of overflow.) Than trim your pump capacity down to make it run smooth.

I actualy do also not see any real advantage in the downward knee inside the outer box.. And the water always has to rise a bit higher than that the top of the knee to finaly flow away.

Trimming the pump is easy, put a T above it in the sump and a valve on that T, valve fully closed full power to tank, slowly open valve and some water will run back into sump and less to the tank. This way the pump is not restricted in flow it keeps running full capacity and you still can reduce waterflow to the tank and regulate it very precise..
View attachment 120111

Thanks Zozo - I think the knee is to silence as the valve is on top of that tube? You can turn it left or right it’s like a fine tune silencing valve.

It seems to do something but I’m not really sure what. The bit that’s baffling me the most is what causes the water level to sit at what level against the overflow flow.

So you think slowing the pump would mean the tank fills slower - but how would that affect the level against the overflow box - water filling slower but draining the same rate would mean it falls even lower right? I either increase the pump into the tank or try and slow the drain speed down a bit maybe?

It’s odd as it’s not really the speed that’s the problem because like I said at one point t was running level with the tank for a good few hours. It’s literally the level at which the sump runs that I don’t fill understand in regards to what actually makes the overflow flow assign a ‘working level’ that water naturally falls at.

With a weir - what would cause the water not to ‘fall’ - I presume simply that the water Input was slightly faster than the out so the level is a bit higher?

Sorry for all the questions but hopefully it also helps others if they try this method! I think I’d have the same problem even if my tank was drilled as it’s related the the pump in and drain out speed.

Cheers!


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[zozo]

Ok that was not to see on the pictures.. the tube above the knee is the same as this what i posted earlier.



The air inlet and vacuum and overflow prevention... 🙂 Than te valve indeed functions as a silencer, but if yu fully close it it will prevent air from getting in and vacuum the hose. Thus it should never be closed fully.. A tiny gap is enough.. If it still makes noise plug a small piece of sponge in it to reduce it even further. 🙂

 

[Something Fishy]

Ok that was not to see on the pictures.. the tube above the knee is the same as this what i posted earlier.



The air inlet and vacuum and overflow prevention... 🙂 Than te valve indeed functions as a silencer, but if yu fully close it it will prevent air from getting in and vacuum the hose. Thus it should never be closed fully.. A tiny gap is enough.. If it still makes noise plug a small piece of sponge in it to reduce it even further. 🙂

I had suspected as much - thanks Zozo that does make sense!

In theory in that case too - can that be used to adjust the water level for the outside box and therefore the inside too?


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[zozo]

can that be used to adjust the water level for the outside box and therefore the inside too?

No... It all simply comes down to the volume capacity (flow through) of the Vacuum chamber.. There is nothing to regulate other than the volume you pump into the tank. If the overflow is acting up, it simply doesn't correspond with the amount of water you want to push through.. Thus, pump capacity doesn't correspond with drain capacity..

It all sounds very complicated vacuum here and vacuum there.. 🙄😵😕 But i do not know how to explain it any differently than i already did.

Sorry..

 

[Something Fishy]

No... It all simply comes down to the volume capacity (flow through) of the Vacuum chamber.. There is nothing to regulate other than the volume you pump into the tank. If the overflow is acting up, it simply doesn't correspond with the amount of water you want to push through.. Thus, pump capacity doesn't correspond with drain capacity..

It all sounds very complicated vacuum here and vacuum there.. 🙄😵😕 But i do not know how to explain it any differently than i already did.

Sorry..

No not at all Zozo you’ve been a huge help for sure!

I totally see what you’re saying about the pump and the drain capacity, I just presumed that by slowing down the return pump then less water is coming into the tank - this in term would make the water level drop in the tank I presume but the amount of draw from the overflow is still the same right? This would make the overflow water level drop further?

I am struggling to understand what would actually make the overall water level rise within the overflow itself. Logic suggests a slower drain would result in more water in the tank faster and so the level would rise on the overflow but it does rise and get level with the tank but falls again when it all stabilizes out a bit later.

Sorry if I’m being stupid here.


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[zozo]

It has nothing to do with stuppid.. 🙂 It more likely is not understanding due to lak in experience.. I started out the same when it comes to overflows, i started DIY building and experimenting and made my fair share of mistakes, almost flooding my room and burning out several pumps.. And it took me about a year pulling hair from my head with different scenarios and trying different designs and keep remodeling them to finaly understand them and get it to work properly.. This doesn't come overnight, overflows work with forces of nature, these forces are Dynamic and in terms of physics this is what can change over night. Also dynamic from constructional aspect working with it or against it, a redundand bend in the tube can have drastic effects maybe not today but tomorow you have to wait for it to happen to experience it..

It can result in a perfect running overflow today, acting up tomorow or it may take 3 weeks before it starts acting up. Than try to fix it and a few weeks later it still didn't seem to be the correct fix. Because it triggered an other event at a different location. The more you run such a system on its edge of capacity the narrower it listens to possible bottlenecks in its route.

This learning curve takes time and patience to understand and experience it's pros/cons in functionality.. 🙂

And once you understand it, it is very easy to say it is simple. Sorry for that, because i did use the word simple a tad to often.

Anyway, try for a start to understand that your overflow even if it looks as 1 single device. It contains 3 different parts that work completely independend from eachother. It only needs to be synchronized to work properly together.

1 - your overflow box with the comb in the tank
2 - the vacuum chamber
3 - the outer box with the drain


1 - The comb box in the tank, if it has a fixed position than water will rise till it overflows. The more water you pump in the higher it will rise over this comb. If you pump in less, the water level will lower. This only if the comb box has a fixed position. If you pump in less water and you have to ability to rise the com box to give it a higher overflow level than obviously the water will rise with it. If you can not change the level of the comb box, than that is what you got and need to live with.

2 - The vacuum chamber has a fixed maximum through flow capacity it's a force of nature you can not change. The only thing that can cause restriction is blockage (dirt buildup, a wandering snail etc.). The pumps capacity should never be greater that the vacuum chambers through flow capacity. Keeping dirt buildup or anything else that can restrict flow into respect. Than it is very wise to have a tad lower pump capacity than overflow capacity.

3 - the drain, schould alway be greater than the vacuum chamber capacity. If it isn't the overflow box can overflow.

For the rest all 3 are completely independed from eachother. What ever you do with the in tank box or vacuum chamber it has no efffect on the drain capacity from the drain box and visa versa. If the drain box capacity doesn't correspond with the vacuum chambers capacity. Than it is either pump capacity is to much or the drain tube capacity to low. Than you have to change one or the other, pump in less water or make a bigger drain. There is nothng else to discuss..

That's realy all i can tell about it.. Any discussion will be only repeating the same story over again in different words.

Keep playing with it and try to change things if it doesn't work to satisfaction.. Gather experience and the Aha!! moment will come if not today than maybe in a few months.

 

[Scapefu]

Hi,

As a sump user, I can tell you that you want to a) make sure to prevent a break in the siphon tube of your overflow during a power outage, and b) you want to have a quiet overflow/sump. The first issue is managed with an air pump that will turn on and pull the air out of the siphon tube when the power comes back on. The second issue is solved by modifying your overflow to a Herbie style (as you don't have space for a Bean Animal). What you seem to have is a Durso style overflow pipe that can work but it takes work.

Good luck,

Art

 

[Something Fishy]

Hi,

As a sump user, I can tell you that you want to a) make sure to prevent a break in the siphon tube of your overflow during a power outage, and b) you want to have a quiet overflow/sump. The first issue is managed with an air pump that will turn on and pull the air out of the siphon tube when the power comes back on. The second issue is solved by modifying your overflow to a Herbie style (as you don't have space for a Bean Animal). What you seem to have is a Durso style overflow pipe that can work but it takes work.

Good luck,

Art

Thanks Art

I’m on the case with the pump as I thought the same - I was going to use a doser for that pulling say once an hour.

Would I fit a Herbie in there do you think? All I really want to do is have the overflow level and tank level equal so the water does fall in and degas more than it needs to


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[Something Fishy]

I now see about 10 snails - should I start culling them before my tank is full?


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[Something Fishy]

Hi,

As a sump user, I can tell you that you want to a) make sure to prevent a break in the siphon tube of your overflow during a power outage, and b) you want to have a quiet overflow/sump. The first issue is managed with an air pump that will turn on and pull the air out of the siphon tube when the power comes back on. The second issue is solved by modifying your overflow to a Herbie style (as you don't have space for a Bean Animal). What you seem to have is a Durso style overflow pipe that can work but it takes work.

Good luck,

Art

Hi Art / Zozo

So I’ve been fiddling with the tank water levels and made some progress.

Does the water evaporate from the actual tank as well? Obviously once it levels at the minimum to fall into the box it won’t keep evaporating and would go from the sump.

I just figured that if water in and water out of the tank are matched then by filling the tank more I am actually raising the overall operating level right? Because that did actually make the water in the overflow level with the tank eventually and worked as I wanted before.

Since then it does seem to drop a little bit not as much as it did before.

I accept that the drain and the comb are huge factors of the levels but I thought I’d ask Incase you knew anything about that.

Cheers


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[Something Fishy]

No... It all simply comes down to the volume capacity (flow through) of the Vacuum chamber.. There is nothing to regulate other than the volume you pump into the tank. If the overflow is acting up, it simply doesn't correspond with the amount of water you want to push through.. Thus, pump capacity doesn't correspond with drain capacity..

It all sounds very complicated vacuum here and vacuum there.. 🙄😵😕 But i do not know how to explain it any differently than i already did.

Sorry..

Hi Zozo

Have you had problems with Shrimps in the sump and or overflows?

I guess yours are different to mind. All my Amanos keep going in the sump but if I put a grill on the overflow that will cause resistance won’t it to the water falling out? And slow up the fall rate a bit?

I’m starting to answer some of my earlier questions above simply by playing with things, there does seem to be a ‘min-max tolerance level in the tank itself where the water can evaporate. The overflow naturally works at both due to water in and out being the same, but if I top the tank there is less ‘drop’ into the overflow box which I what I wanted.

Sadly I see now way of maintaining this without an auto top up actually filling the tank as well as the sump.

Thanks mate


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[Daveslaney]

Don't have any experiance with overflow boxes. But dont most overflows have a ball valve on the overflow pipe to sump? If you close the ball valve slightly to decrease the flow down the overflow pipe. This will lift the water level in your overflow box and tank? And decrease the water level in your sump? Or if your pump is adjustable speed turning the pump up would have the same effect?

 

[zozo]

Have you had problems with Shrimps in the sump and or overflows?

No not realy, but i have custom DIY overflows with a relative fine mesh... Adult shrimp can't get in.. Occasinaly i find a cherry in the sump, from fry the gets in and than slowly grows big in the sump.

I’m starting to answer some of my earlier questions above simply by playing with things

That's the way to go to get to know your system.. It takes time and trail and error.. About each system has it's own induvidual issues and things.
In principle all the same, but still little things can make it behave differently.