TMC Sig 600 Twinstar 600s Sump build

[Something Fishy]

I would say you would be better with the return pipe same as you have it now but at the front of the tank, That way the flow would hit the far wall travel down where your co2 diffuser is and return across your HC carpet along the bottom. Giving your HC a good supply of co2 enriched water.

Good point Dave cheers.

I did think the same actually and pointed it towards the diffusers already so it’s shaking it all up. I just need a suction cup so I can attach the return pipe properly to the tank.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zozo]

If the tank isn't level, than at least make sure the overflow box is at the time you prime it.. Or else you can't vacuum it completely and any air in the vacuum chamber can decrease flowthrough capacity. Put a piece of cardboard under it at the lowest side to level it. Once it is primed and completely filled you can take that away again, make sure all air is out.

To explain the noise and why it runs OK for now and not tomorow.. I created a little diagram clossest to your design and try to explain. Unfortunately i can not make an animation, so try to use imagination.. 🙂

It is actualy verry simple, the thing is you do not see it happening without clear tubing..

This is your situation. And take a look at this diagram.. You only can have noise and burbs and slurps where i wrote it down in the overflow drain box.



See the Fall Tube, that is the tube you connected to the bulkhead in the overflow drain box that leads to the sump.

Now when the pump is running both ends of this tube are under water and closed, the tube will completely fill with water..
Gravity makes this water fall through this tube into the sump.. The lenght of this tube determines how much resistance the water has to overcome to get into the sump. But it aint only resistance, all water volume in that tube has a weight, creating a suction force draging down the water volume in the waterlock from the overflow drain box. (See red line Waterlock).
The longer the route, the more volume in the tube, the more weight and drag is sucking at the top end.

There are several natural not constant factors having influence on the waters fall speed in that Fall Tube. Air pressure, dirt particlas, trapped air pockets in the tube, slime forming at the tubes wall. It is rather dynamic it can change over night.

Now yesterday it was running fine on the tipping point of it's capacity, overnight the atmospheric air pressure changes and today the tube is draining slightly faster. And it creates an edy in the drain box. It sucks in a bubble of air.

The falling water wants to drag down this air bubble.. But the air bubble is much lighter and wants to go back up.. Now you have a battle between 2 forces going on in the fall tube, falling water dragging a bubble down and the bubble says now way i want to go back up. Than there will be a trapped air bubble in the tube that doesnt want to go down and can't get out because it's surounded by dragging water. This results in restriction, the flowthrough capacity from the fall tube becomes less as long this air bubble is bouncing up and down in the tube.

Than suddenly gravity overcomes the airbubble and it is sucked through all the way down and released into the sump (Blob sound of a bubble comming up in the sump) Suddenly all restriction gone the fall speed in the tube encreases and speeds up drasticaly, so much it creates an edy again in the drain box, suddenly sucking in several air bubbles again. Slurp sound in the drain box. And now there are 3 bubbles in the tube and all starts over again, water dragging down bubbles and air bubbles fighting this force because they want to go up flow through decreases again.

All this play creates an erratic fluctuating flow through, slurping at the top end and burping at the low end in the sump. Running fine today, maybe for a week, but there comes a day it doesn't anymore. Just wait for it.. That's what you don't want, you can't rely on it.. You don't see it happen, but make the entire route from clear tube and you will see it. That's how i found out.. I understand the difficulty of imagine something you've never seen.

At one point to much trapped air in the tube can cause to much restriction and loss of capacity simply overflowing the tank. Simply because you fall tube is to long and to narrow with both ends under water and completely filled.. This tube will get dirty over time, also this changes it's capacity, not only drain capacity also it's trap bubbles capacity.

Make that fall tube route as short as possible with the least change of anyting getting trapped in it especialy air bubbles.

Go back to this post and find a cunstructional way to fix it and make a reliable drain that never traps and never stops.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/tmc-sig-600-twinstar-600s-sump-build.55941/#post-543324

 

[Something Fishy]

If the tank isn't level, than at least make sure the overflow box is at the time you prime it.. Or else you can't vacuum it completely and any air in the vacuum chamber can decrease flowthrough capacity. Put a piece of cardboard under it at the lowest side to level it. Once it is primed and completely filled you can take that away again, make sure all air is out.

To explain the noise and why it runs OK for now and not tomorow.. I created a little diagram clossest to your design and try to explain. Unfortunately i can not make an animation, so try to use imagination.. 🙂

It is actualy verry simple, the thing is you do not see it happening without clear tubing..

This is your situation. And take a look at this diagram.. You only can have noise and burbs and slurps where i wrote it down in the overflow drain box.

View attachment 119900

See the Fall Tube, that is the tube you connected to the bulkhead in the overflow drain box that leads to the sump.

Now when the pump is running both ends of this tube are under water and closed, the tube will completely fill with water..
Gravity makes this water fall through this tube into the sump.. The lenght of this tube determines how much resistance the water has to overcome to get into the sump. But it aint only resistance, all water volume in that tube has a weight, creating a suction force draging down the water volume in the waterlock from the overflow drain box. (See red line Waterlock).
The longer the route, the more volume in the tube, the more weight and drag is sucking at the top end.

There are several natural not constant factors having influence on the waters fall speed in that Fall Tube. Air pressure, dirt particlas, trapped air pockets in the tube, slime forming at the tubes wall. It is rather dynamic it can change over night.

Now yesterday it was running fine on the tipping point of it's capacity, overnight the atmospheric air pressure changes and today the tube is draining slightly faster. And it creates an edy in the drain box. It sucks in a bubble of air.

The falling water wants to drag down this air bubble.. But the air bubble is much lighter and wants to go back up.. Now you have a battle between 2 forces going on in the fall tube, falling water dragging a bubble down and the bubble says now way i want to go back up. Than there will be a trapped air bubble in the tube that doesnt want to go down and can't get out because it's surounded by dragging water. This results in restriction, the flowthrough capacity from the fall tube becomes less as long this air bubble is bouncing up and down in the tube.

Than suddenly gravity overcomes the airbubble and it is sucked through all the way down and released into the sump (Blob sound of a bubble comming up in the sump) Suddenly all restriction gone the fall speed in the tube encreases and speeds up drasticaly, so much it creates an edy again in the drain box, suddenly sucking in several air bubbles again. Slurp sound in the drain box. And now there are 3 bubbles in the tube and all starts over again, water dragging down bubbles and air bubbles fighting this force because they want to go up flow through decreases again.

All this play creates an erratic fluctuating flow through, slurping at the top end and burping at the low end in the sump. Running fine today, maybe for a week, but there comes a day it doesn't anymore. Just wait for it.. That's what you don't want, you can't rely on it.. You don't see it happen, but make the entire route from clear tube and you will see it. That's how i found out.. I understand the difficulty of imagine something you've never seen.

At one point to much trapped air in the tube can cause to much restriction and loss of capacity simply overflowing the tank. Simply because you fall tube is to long and to narrow with both ends under water and completely filled.. This tube will get dirty over time, also this changes it's capacity, not only drain capacity also it's trap bubbles capacity.

Make that fall tube route as short as possible with the least change of anyting getting trapped in it especialy air bubbles.

Go back to this post and find a cunstructional way to fix it and make a reliable drain that never traps and never stops.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/tmc-sig-600-twinstar-600s-sump-build.55941/#post-543324

This is an amazing answer Zozo so thank you. Read it thoroughly and it does make absolute sense - and actually reinforces my worry’s of it not working over time and blocking.

The tube is actually pretty short for the drain - maybe just 45cm but it’s bent and curved so I take your point.

It’s now quieter and the overflow box is more full than before so it’s not falling so far - I guess that can only be a good thing.

I think I will monitor the co2 and make a call - if I lose a lot of it to evaporation then it’s likely going to be a switch back to a filter for me to reduce the worry.

That said I do want to try this first - also if the kept the pipe(s) clean that would surely help prevent the change in flow too?

Annoying too as this was sold as a package that works, and as the seller is not responding it’s almost like he knows. A couple of others have reported issues on feedback too 🙁


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zozo]

There are several ways to overcome that problem.. You have to make something so that air can get in outside the Overflow drain box.

For example the simplest solution might be, place a Y or T connector in the fall tube as close as possible bellow the box. Like in the diagram bellow.
Connect an extra piece of tube and lead it up next to the box above the water level. That will be the aeration of the tube. If a gurgling sound comes out put a little piece of filter sponge in it. This will let air through but dampens the sound. It will prevent air sucked in or getting out again via the box outlet.



That's the same thing a plumber would do if you suffer a gurgling syphon in the bathroom.
Place an aeration valve in the sewage pipe. 🙂

That's the fun with sumps.. You have to try things..

 

[Something Fishy]

There are several ways to overcome that problem.. You have to make something so that air can get in outside the Overflow drain box.

For example the simplest solution might be, place a Y or T connector in the fall tube as close as possible bellow the box. Like in the diagram bellow.
Connect an extra piece of tube and lead it up next to the box above the water level. That will be the aeration of the tube. If a gurgling sound comes out put a little piece of filter sponge in it. This will let air through but dampens the sound. It will prevent air sucked in or getting out again via the box outlet.


View attachment 119901
That's the same thing a plumber would do if you suffer a gurgling syphon in the bathroom.
Place an aeration valve in the sewage pipe. 🙂

That's the fun with sumps.. You have to try things..

That’s a good plan Zozo I like it.

There is already a kind of valve on top of the drain hole - I presume that’s what that will do right?

Sorry if my video wasn’t too clear showing that, I know it’s quite hard to see anything much.

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zozo]

There is already a kind of valve on top of the drain hole - I presume that’s what that will do right?

No i guess not, that valve likely is to regulate the drain speed. 🙂 (Aeration valves used in sewage are inverted Check valvels, letting air in but no water out if it comes to that)

 

[Something Fishy]

Oh right only that valve doesn’t seem to do too much really? I can sort of turn it both ways on and off and eventually the outside drain area falls and doesn’t change again after even if I use the valve.

Also noticing bubbles in the top section again with the other one way check valve on it - so it seems air is still not escaping and being trapped in the top :/ presume it’s coming from the bubbles made with the overflow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Something Fishy]

No i guess not, that valve likely is to regulate the drain speed. 🙂 (Aeration valves used in sewage are inverted Check valvels, letting air in but no water out if it comes to that)

Hi Zozo

So the sump overflow seems to be working better now, but still not right and not sure how much gas off I am getting with co2 compared to say a filter.

I really like that it skims the water surface though. I also am going to need a basic top up for the sump too so it accounts for evaporation...

The little tube on the top to remove air seems to just lose the water all the time now and fills with air. Both valves I’ve tried have the same result yet when I blow through the valve they are both only one way. Not sure what the problem is but I think I’m going to need an aqualifter pump? I guess using a syphon on that tube to the sump will cause too much water draw out?

Cheers 🙂


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zozo]

I have experienced the same thing with those small checkvalves.. Blowing air it is closed but under atmospheric counter pressure it leaks.
This is just because the counter pressure created by the volume weight of the water in the vacuum chamber is rather tiny, it can barely be called pressure.
imagine 1000cm water colum is 1 bar pressure regardles the volume, then 10cm vacuum water column is 0.010 bar pressure that needs to close the valve. A tiny speck of dirt can make it leak while it seems closed when you blow 0.5 bar into it.

What you could try to do to check the checkvalve, is extend the tube it is on, vacuum it and hang the checkvalve under water into the tank. It simply can't suck air if its under water 😉 then it suck back water into the vacuum chamber. If that solves the problem, you need to keep trying checkvalves till you find one that works. Or forget about them and plug the hose permanently.

If nothing helps, there must be a leak somewhere at the box itself.

Than, with a clear acrylic box, you might deveop biofilm and algae grwoth in the vacuum chamber. This can photosynthesize and produce oxygen, that slowly accumelates. But not in a day or 2, more likely after weeks, by then it needs a cleaning.

 

[Something Fishy]

I have experienced the same thing with those small checkvalves.. Blowing air it is closed but under atmospheric counter pressure it leaks.
This is just because the counter pressure created by the volume weight of the water in the vacuum chamber is rather tiny, it can barely be called pressure.
imagine 1000cm water colum is 1 bar pressure regardles the volume, then 10cm vacuum water column is 0.010 bar pressure that needs to close the valve. A tiny speck of dirt can make it leak while it seems closed when you blow 0.5 bar into it.

What you could try to do to check the checkvalve, is extend the tube it is on, vacuum it and hang the checkvalve under water into the tank. It simply can't suck air if its under water 😉 then it suck back water into the vacuum chamber. If that solves the problem, you need to keep trying checkvalves till you find one that works. Or forget about them and plug the hose permanently.

If nothing helps, there must be a leak somewhere at the box itself.

Than, with a clear acrylic box, you might deveop biofilm and algae grwoth in the vacuum chamber. This can photosynthesize and produce oxygen, that slowly accumelates. But not in a day or 2, more likely after weeks, by then it needs a cleaning.

That makes sense Zozo and I’d thought of something similar myself with the check valve. My worry was with the tube bent, the air that comes out through it would have to go down to escape right? Rather than up and out the valve as it’s meant to?

Do you think making a syphon with the tube would draw too much water out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zozo]

Suck it completely full with water up to the checkvalve, than hang the checkvalve into the water. In the tank itself or in the box overflow, doesn't mater as long as it can't suck air. If it sucks back water, it'll be so tiny amount yuo wont notice a thing and you overflow stays vacuumed. Than you know the checkvalve is trash. 🙂

And if checkvalves keep driving you nuts.. Do this and tug it away behind the box.

 

[Something Fishy]

Suck it completely full with water up to the checkvalve, than hang the checkvalve into the water. In the tank itself or in the box overflow, doesn't mater as long as it can't suck air. If it sucks back water, it'll be so tiny amount yuo wont notice a thing and you overflow stays vacuumed. Than you know the checkvalve is trash. 🙂

And if checkvalves keep driving you nuts.. Do this and tug it away behind the box.
View attachment 119932

Spot on Zozo will try that.

Sorry to keep on but you think that would then release any trapped air still if the air escapes through the tube like it does now and has to go downwards rather than rise up and go out the valve?

I managed to get it working last night with a drip syphon the other side of the check valve but if the overflow stopped it would lose suction I know.

The guy that made this told me it could auto restart in a power cut with the tube and valve on top as any air left would go back up the tube and escape at the top. I fear that’s unlikely in reality without a pump as many online have said in forums I’ve checked.

Really to alleviate some of the problems you told me the other day about gurgling and pipe resistance, a variable return sump pump is vital so you can vary the speed for the sump via the pump rather than the tube when fully open right? I don’t like relying on the tap position of the drain every time as it’s a faff to find it again every time I start the sump

Thanks for your help Zozo you’ve been a gem. Still want to give this sump a go as I like many aspects.

You have any auto top ups on yours?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zozo]

Sorry to keep on but you think that would then release any trapped air still if the air escapes through the tube like it does now and has to go downwards rather than rise up and go out the valve?

I'm not sure what you mean.. Do you think that the prime tube with checkvalve is to vent out escapeded air? Because it isn't, than you probably do not yet understand that vacuum principle. The check valve is meant for to suck all air out of the overflow vacuum chamber and keep it filled with water, the checkvalve should prevent air getting back in to preserve the vacuum. If you pull off the prime tube the vacuum chamber will empty because air comes in. If the tube or valve has a leak, the vacuum slowly will drain and no longer be vacuum and stop overflowing. Thus this tube shoulb be 100% air tight, nothing in and nothing out. Closing the tube permanently with a plug is most secure, the checkvalve hase no further function once the chamber is vacuum and filled with water. Thus: "It is not meant to release trapped air, it's to suck air out and prevent air from going back in." 🙂 Thus if it contains traped air, it will never escape by itslef you have to suck it out again via the prime tube and close it again.

As long as this overflow is completely filled up, it will always auto restart after a power outage. 🙂

The overflow has a maximum flow through, obviously you can and should only regulate it down with trimming down the pumps flow.

No i do not have an auto top off.. It stands 4 steps away from the first tap in the house.

 

[Something Fishy]

I'm not sure what you mean.. Do you think that the prime tube with checkvalve is to vent out escapeded air? Because it isn't, than you probably do not yet understand that vacuum principle. The check valve is meant for to suck all air out of the overflow vacuum chamber and keep it filled with water, the checkvalve should prevent air getting back in to preserve the vacuum. If you pull off the prime tube the vacuum chamber will empty because air comes in. If the tube or valve has a leak, the vacuum slowly will drain and no longer be vacuum and stop overflowing. Thus this tube shoulb be 100% air tight, nothing in and nothing out. Closing the tube permanently with a plug is most secure, the checkvalve hase no further function once the chamber is vacuum and filled with water. Thus: "It is not meant to release trapped air, it's to suck air out and prevent air from going back in." 🙂 Thus if it contains traped air, it will never escape by itslef you have to suck it out again via the prime tube and close it again.

As long as this overflow is completely filled up, it will always auto restart after a power outage. 🙂

The overflow has a maximum flow through, obviously you can and should only regulate it down with trimming down the pumps flow.

No i do not have an auto top off.. It stands 4 steps away from the first tap in the house.

That’s fair Zozo, I think I will look into the auto top up! Alas today as well this amazingly well made overflow has just had the valve outlet node snap on me! Acrylic and the tube sticks to it sooo tightly that it wouldn’t come off at all so it snapped instead. Even now I’ve had to pry it out.

I see Zozo that makes sense, and not fully my misunderstanding as that’s what the maker informed me. I did see bubbles escaping up the tube as well that were being syphoned; and they built up in the tube! But they were not escaping so eventually they filled the tube with air - so I presumed it would be to allow the air to get out that makes its way into the syphon chamber from being sucked in? Otherwise the air will build up inside right?

If that is the case Zozo then I think I will using a dosing pump and attach that to it for sure! What’s to stop just gluing a check valve straight on the top of this overflow box and using that and cutting out the need for a tube? As long as it locks one way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Something Fishy]

I'm not sure what you mean.. Do you think that the prime tube with checkvalve is to vent out escapeded air? Because it isn't, than you probably do not yet understand that vacuum principle. The check valve is meant for to suck all air out of the overflow vacuum chamber and keep it filled with water, the checkvalve should prevent air getting back in to preserve the vacuum. If you pull off the prime tube the vacuum chamber will empty because air comes in. If the tube or valve has a leak, the vacuum slowly will drain and no longer be vacuum and stop overflowing. Thus this tube shoulb be 100% air tight, nothing in and nothing out. Closing the tube permanently with a plug is most secure, the checkvalve hase no further function once the chamber is vacuum and filled with water. Thus: "It is not meant to release trapped air, it's to suck air out and prevent air from going back in." 🙂 Thus if it contains traped air, it will never escape by itslef you have to suck it out again via the prime tube and close it again.

As long as this overflow is completely filled up, it will always auto restart after a power outage. 🙂

The overflow has a maximum flow through, obviously you can and should only regulate it down with trimming down the pumps flow.

No i do not have an auto top off.. It stands 4 steps away from the first tap in the house.

Hi Zozo

So I tried something else and added a tube to the other side with water in to see what I expected.

The air from the top of the sump has been going up the tube and repacking the water. The valve though is stopping the air getting out but still locking the water the other side.

A few bubbles made it though but gradually they’ve gone up the tube overnight and pushed out all the water as air is lighter.

This is the best I can show - tube below the valve is full of air from bubbles going up it and the top tube is still locked and full of water from the valve(another new valve again):

I think I will rig up a dosing box and use one of the dosers to draw air out each hour. As long as the overflow is drawing in tiny air bubbles tank side, there will always be a build up at the top of the w bend.

You can actually see a couple that got through the valve to escape:


Air build up inside the W overflow just overnight



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zozo]

If the bubbles in the vacuum chamber are caused by water splashing into the box during overflowing and sucking up small air bubbles.. Than slow that water down, for example take a piece of coarse filter sponge that is as big as the box panel bellow the comb. And place that under the comb, than the water will not splash down but trickle down in and over the sponge. 🙂

 

[Something Fishy]

If the bubbles in the vacuum chamber are caused by water splashing into the box during overflowing and sucking up small air bubbles.. Than slow that water down, for example take a piece of coarse filter sponge that is as big as the box panel bellow the comb. And place that under the comb, than the water will not splash down but trickle down in and over the sponge. 🙂

Yeah that’s a pretty good idea actually Zozo. Are you saying in theory you can’t image air going through this? I just can’t see how tiny bubbles wouldn’t keep going in and build up eventually?

Started seeing mobile growing on the woods too - please tell me this will go or I can get rid another way than H2o2? I’ve wrapped the moss now that’s all ha.

This came before too I’m sure it’s not algae? It looks like a mound and occurred out of water too. The other piece of wood has a clearer version in just two days.

Thanks guys






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Edvet]

It wil go.😉

 

[Something Fishy]

It wil go.😉

Awesome. No need to scrub it Edvet? I cleaned it off before already but the tank was dry again for two months so it’s come back. Black hair like appearance on the darker wood but not BBA I don’t think


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Something Fishy]

Also - keep this foreign traveller or ditch him? Haha




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk