Thoughts on spraybar direction

[Zeus.]

Hardscape & planting greatly impact which flow design works best on your tank

Yes it was design of my hardscape that influenced me where to put the spraybars etc. Was after good flow at the substrate level in all the deepest areas for the carpet OFC

Good job 'alto' was awake when posting

 

[Costa]

No connections necessary, just a cut down bottle.


View attachment 119445

This is exactly what I have today, except for the diffuser at the end of the co2 tube, but that's no problem to add. Is this the most efficient way to diffuse co2 in the aquarium?

 

[foxfish]

I doubt it is the most efficient but it is a simple and effective way.

 

[Costa]

Quick update, I found the time to set up the new spraybar which isn't much of a spraybar really but anyway.





Water flow across the tank, fish seem to like it because they are more active now at the uper half of the tank (in the past they would mostly shoal at the bottom half), looks like they enjoy schooling and swimming against the current.

Skimming function of the overflow seems to have improved, water is very clear with significantly less debris compared to the past. CO2 dissolution remains a problem, I have the CO2 tube in the pump inlet, I get a mist if bubbles coming out of the spraybar but I don't think it's working. I must build a reactor asap.

Thank you for all the advice and for reading.

 

[Zeus.]

I tried mine with twin outlets like you have in the lower pic and the tank turnover was rubbish. Connected the twin outlets with pipe with holes in it and tank turnover/flow was much better

 

[Costa]

tank turnover was rubbish

How do you measure that? You don't have an overflow do you?

 

[Andrew Butler]

How do you measure that? You don't have an overflow do you?

I think that Karl means circulation or distribution if these words make better sense to you.
I would agree with him that your spraybar would give you the best chance of getting even distribution of flow, I'm unsure why you changed it to be honest. 😵

 

[Zeus.]

How do you measure that? You don't have an overflow do you?

Just visually with the movement of plants and the buuble flow from the twinstar when it came on

 

[ceg4048]

Is this the most efficient way to diffuse co2 in the aquarium?

I doubt it is the most efficient but it is a simple and effective way.

Actually there are a couple of ways that are more efficient, but they are not as simple.

The problem of diffusion is resolved by reducing the size of the CO2 bubbles beyond that of the typical ceramic disk.

The first and most elaborate method is to use a Mazzei injector, but this is very complicated and requires plumbing modifications as well as constant fiddling.
The second and less complicated is to inject the gas into a small, low powered skimmer pump that has a needle wheel impeller instead of the typical centrifugal impeller. The output of this skimmer pump can be placed directly in front of the input of your main pump.

The skimmer pump with needle wheel impeller is about as effective as the Mazzei injector and is a LOT less complicated.

Also, when using spraybars mounted at the back of the tank, it is not necessary or advisable to have the bar running the entire length as shown in the top diagram of the original post. The tube length introduces higher frictional forces as well as pressure drops resulting in uneven output from the holes.

You can easily shorten the tube, leaving 6 inches or more from either end. This will produce higher energy from the holes.
One has to experiment with hole sizes based on the pump capacity and so forth.

Cheers,

 

[Costa]

I would agree with him that your spraybar would give you the best chance of getting even distribution of flow, I'm unsure why you changed it to be honest. 😵

I changed it because the overflow wouldn't skim properly, the water had a lot of debris (visible when lights on).

Thank you @ceg4048 - I don't have a needle wheel impeler on my Jebao 10,000 unfortunately but I think there is a needle wheel version out, I will check if I can just buy the impeller separately.

From your experience how does the CO2 distribution through a needle wheel impeller compare to something like this:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/diy-reactor-pictures-assembly-and-testing.4626/

http://nilocg.com/na-advanced

 

[foxfish]

Needle wheel pumps do work, I have used them but they have reduced flow compared to a standard impella pumps and can be very noisy.
From my own experience, useing a “fine mist diffuser” in front of the pump inside a bottle is a cheaper, easier and better method.
Reactors like the one you have linked do work, but only if they are sized correctly and have the right flow, then they will completely discover the C02.
The longer the tube the more efficient at dissolving the gas but they can zap power and reduce flow, if the flow is not adjustable, there is a strong possibility of bubbles exiting the reactor or building up inside the tube.

I built my own style reactor (link in my signature) and it works faultlessly but other folk have not had the same results.
Reactors can be differcult to get tuned in just right but if you can get one on song, I think it is much nicer than a tank full of mist.
There are a lot of people waiting for a decent and effective reactor to appear on the market.
There are a few available but more often than not they have some design issues!
Flow loss is typical and can be quite drastic! Noise is another, burping is common, build up of gas is very common, cost is offen high too.

However if you are good at DIY and don’t mind spending the money, it is quite possible to build your own reactor.

I think the reason my own reactor works so well is because I have full control over the flow and an adjustable power pump to match.

 

[Andrew Butler]

I changed it because the overflow wouldn't skim properly

I see! When I had my marine tank I used some Maxspect Gyres for flow and my weir skimmed the surface just fine; could of course be different for your setup and not a cheap experiment unless you find some second hand ones and there's plenty kicking around. I would avoid the Jebao/Jecod ones as they are just noisy as hell.
I assume you had this same problem with your original spraybar?

as @ceg4048 suggests you could use a pinwheel pump which I think I suggested on your other thread but you have the 'posh' Jebao DCP pump and I' pretty sure they don't make a pinwheel version of this or a pinwheel replacement impellor.
They seem to be for the smaller pumps and I think are mainly aimed at people who want to use them for protein skimmers.

 

[Costa]

I assume you had this same problem with your original spraybar?

Right, the problem with the original spraybar was that it would push the water towards the front glass and then the water would move down, hit the substrate and move up again, to meet the next water wave pushed by the spraybar and follow the same route. This way the debris in the water wasn't collecting at the overflow. The way it works now is that the pump outlets push the water towards the side of the display tank where the overflow is located. I will take a picture and share as soon as possible, I can't describe it very clearly, I'm not a native English speaker as I'm sure you've guessed by now....

The Jebao 10,000L/hr pump I got from fish street for $131, which I don't think it's expensive by any means. Maxspect's Gyro is crazy expensive on the other hand, I wish I could afford it.

 

[Andrew Butler]

The Jebao 10,000L/hr pump I got from fish street for $131, which I don't think it's expensive by any means. Maxspect's Gyro is crazy expensive on the other hand, I wish I could afford it.

The DCP pumps are Jecods' Professional (what the P in DCP stands for) pump and you are right they are not expensive but you can get a version that is not so good or cheaper; in the UK a company called D-D the aquarium solution who normally supply high end equipment have taken Jecod/Jebao on after seeing how good they are for the money.

If you look around you will find a used Gyre for reasonable money, you would only need one and not the controller as you just want a continual gyre created so you could just use the adjustment that is built into them but make sure it is a model with that as I think the very first ones didn't have any kind of control built in. It might just solve all of your problems with flow.

 

[ceg4048]

I changed it because the overflow wouldn't skim properly, the water had a lot of debris (visible when lights on).

Thank you @ceg4048 - I don't have a needle wheel impeler on my Jebao 10,000 unfortunately but I think there is a needle wheel version out, I will check if I can just buy the impeller separately.

From your experience how does the CO2 distribution through a needle wheel impeller compare to something like this:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/diy-reactor-pictures-assembly-and-testing.4626/

http://nilocg.com/na-advanced

Hi, yes, I realize that and I was not suggesting that you fit the main pump with the pinwheel.
What I am suggesting is that you add a second protein skimmer pump inside the sump to do the job.
The skimmer does not have to be plumbed. Control of water levels are not relevant. You merely point its output in the direction of the inlet of your main pump. Very simple.

As foxfish mentions, his way is certainly much cheaper, but skimmer pumps with pinwheel are wide available and are relatively inexpensive.

Cheers,

 

[Costa]

Thank you @Andrew Butler and @ceg4048

Do you have a needle pump to recommend and advise on how to plug in my co2 outlet (if different to what @foxfish showed)?

 

[Andrew Butler]

Price wise I doubt you will beat the Jebao/Jecod - I'm unsure what the noise of their pinwheel pumps are like but as you know the return pumps are pretty quiet.
I had a pin/needlewheel on my skimmer and it was almost silent; that was a Nyos skimmer but unsure what pumps they used.

As for setup I think @ceg4048 and @foxfish are your men.

 

[foxfish]

Well I have used Eheim NW pumps and I have modified several other makes, I use a Grundfoss central heating pump fitted with an aqua turn conversion myself.
Needle wheel pumps will not be able to pump or circulate the same amount of water as the same pump with a standard impeller.
Buy thier nature the pump will cavitate ie the impeller will spin faster that the water can flow, this causes the air or C02 to break up as it is wized around.
From my own experience, this process can be quite noisy and it can cause the pump to vibrate. However that might not be a problem if the pump is under water.

Having tried placing an atomiser in front of the pump inlet and useing a needle wheel pump I can tell you both work.

The main benefit of the NW pump is the ease of adding the C02 due to not requiring any high pressure devisees in the C02 system. You just stick the C02 line in the pump.
The atomiser in front of the pump is my preferred method but it does require a high pressure atomiser, a Bazooka works brilliantly.
Of course both methods do produce a fine mist in the display.

Some folk have suggested just putting a atomiser in the sump compartment but honestly that does not work very well. You need to get all the micro bubbles directly into the pump not floating around in the sump.

The bottle trick works with a NW or a standard pump, it is 100% effective it only needs to be a few inches long and cost nothing.

 

[zozo]

Never heard of it before and had a great laugh googling pinwheel pumps...

But seriously and interstingly, i see they come in 3 different designs.

And

I guess for shredding CO² number one is most effective? Also providing the strongest turnover?

And, probably designed for the taller tanks..

Wearing them all day, still have surface skum..

 

[Andrew Butler]

But seriously and interstingly, i see they come in 3 different designs.

I think the second or middle option would be more what people mean by a needle or pinwheel impeller.