The Importance of GH Booster.

[George Farmer]

Could testing for Ca give an indication of Mg if you knew the GH?

 

[Dave Spencer]

Your doing EI, which trace mix are you using?

Thanks,
John

I use the original trace from AE, before they changed the formula.

Interesting Dave, nice thread.

Cheers, Graeme. I hoiped people would find this interesting. Shame it is at my expense, though.

Ive never heard of this problem before.

Me neither. This is probably part of the reason why this took me so long to figure things out.

I know of another chap who doses extra GH booster ( Sera stuff ) to his tap water in Mold ( Which aint to far from you Dave ), but im not sure he does it for the same reasons. He keeps Rainbows.....

I lived in Mold for two years with that soft water. It is the water I actually kicked off this hobby with. I knew it was soft, so I added GH booster as a just in case measure. With time, I phased the GH booster out altogether. I restarted the GH booster when I moved to Broughton, but phased it out once again, despite the water being very soft.

Having moved to a brand new house, I found the missus filling all the nooks and crannies pretty sharpish and, having already lost the 240l, I had to move quick and get the scabby Juwel out of moth balls. Having only moved ten minutes down the road, I made the fair assumption that the tap water was still the same level of softness. Having a 60l house move tank that had matured in other tap water, and thriving in my new hall way masked the problem for me, too. That tank would probably have Mg reserves the plants could call upon for a period of time.

I did rush this tank, and find it hard to give it the time it needed (hanging curtains, shelves etc...), but no excuses. As someone who strongly endorses reading the tank and its inhabitants, I should have been more on the ball. It is still taking a lot of work to turn this tank around, though.

Does this not back up the thought that plants generally do better in harder water areas..... This wouldnt be a problem for those people.

I`m not convinced this is the case. I can grow healthy plants in uber soft water, and should have just got back on to the GH booster with the new tap water, and tried to see if I could phase it out as per my previous set ups.

The situation with your drop checker is interesting too. Was the drop checking going back to blue when the Co2 was off? If the water was very soft, then I would imagine it was yellow all the time? Yes?

It was yellow 24/7, but I do pour the stuff in on a new tank. I actually only use the drop checker to bring the CO2 back down for adding fish and inverts. Then it goes back out of the tank again, until the next scape.

In my mind all Dave's problems could have been avoided if he had used a test kit in the first place.

I often carry out lab analysis of power station boiler water, and am not aware of an off the shelf test kit that would be even remotely accurate in telling me the Mg levels of my tap water. I used to test tap/tank for everything in the early days, but I won`t be taking that step backwards. This was a basic error that others that fertilise their tanks should take note of. I has an entirely new type of algae, to me, which should have been the single, biggest indicator.

Dave.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Could testing for Ca give an indication of Mg if you knew the GH?

it would, as they are the only 2 likely divalent ions, if you subtract Ca from the total it would give the level of Mg. Magnesium forms the central atom of the chlorophyll molecule (very similar to the iron haem group in blood) so it is an important resource for the plant.

You can get test strips (from Merck) for calcium and magnesium, but I don't think they wouldn't be sensitive enough for fresh water (although they would give you an indication if you kept Marine aquaria, because sea water is rich in Ca and Mg as well as Na etc,).

There are also these (possibly the Merck ones re-branded?) http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/sal...-p-3764.html?zenid=m7aci60r1ml89a643tdgjm8344.

I think the problem would be that you would have to test for Ca in the same way as Mg, by either flame photometry or spectrophotometry. An analytical lab (at a water company or similar) would have an ICP-MS (Inductively Coupled Plasma- Mass Spectrometry), which would sample all the ions in thousands of water sample every day.

The instrument uses argon gas, the atoms of which are excited by high energy radio frequency to produce a plasma (atoms where the electrons are no longer bound to the atom) ....... The sample is then introduced into this plasma as an aerosol which rips the molecules apart into the component atoms which in turn become ionised within the plasma these ions are then passed into the second section of analyser, the mass spectrometer which separates the ion by their mass/charge ratio allowing not only the identification of the metal but also the isotope of the metal."

there is also Graphite Furnace Atomic absorption (GFAA) and Anodic Stripping Voltammetry, both very accurate but not really the sort of kit most homes have.

cheers Darrel

 

[George Farmer]

Exactly as I thought, Darrell...

(And that's why you're an expert!)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Cheating really, we've recently tendered for a new spectrophotometer, so I've got all the bumf from the various manufacturers to hand.

cheers Darrel

 

[Graeme Edwards]

Yep, ya lost me there too.

To much info for me. Interesting, but to much science for me......

The situation with your drop checker is interesting too. Was the drop checking going back to blue when the Co2 was off? If the water was very soft, then I would imagine it was yellow all the time? Yes?

It was yellow 24/7, but I do pour the stuff in on a new tank. I actually only use the drop checker to bring the CO2 back down for adding fish and inverts. Then it goes back out of the tank again, until the next scape.


Dave.

I believe this situation with a constant yellow drop checker confuses many people and they often get unduly worried.

The long and short of your situation though Dave, is, if your in a soft water area, think about the GH levels and think about adding some GH booster. It will not do any harm to try at least.

Cheers.

 

[John Starkey]

Hi all,

Could testing for Ca give an indication of Mg if you knew the GH?

it would, as they are the only 2 likely divalent ions, if you subtract Ca from the total it would give the level of Mg. Magnesium forms the central atom of the chlorophyll molecule (very similar to the iron haem group in blood) so it is an important resource for the plant.

You can get test strips (from Merck) for calcium and magnesium, but I don't think they wouldn't be sensitive enough for fresh water (although they would give you an indication if you kept Marine aquaria, because sea water is rich in Ca and Mg as well as Na etc,).

There are also these (possibly the Merck ones re-branded?) http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/sal...-p-3764.html?zenid=m7aci60r1ml89a643tdgjm8344.

I think the problem would be that you would have to test for Ca in the same way as Mg, by either flame photometry or spectrophotometry. An analytical lab (at a water company or similar) would have an ICP-MS (Inductively Coupled Plasma- Mass Spectrometry), which would sample all the ions in thousands of water sample every day.

The instrument uses argon gas, the atoms of which are excited by high energy radio frequency to produce a plasma (atoms where the electrons are no longer bound to the atom) ....... The sample is then introduced into this plasma as an aerosol which rips the molecules apart into the component atoms which in turn become ionised within the plasma these ions are then passed into the second section of analyser, the mass spectrometer which separates the ion by their mass/charge ratio allowing not only the identification of the metal but also the isotope of the metal."

there is also Graphite Furnace Atomic absorption (GFAA) and Anodic Stripping Voltammetry, both very accurate but not really the sort of kit most homes have.

cheers Darrel

I was just about to post the exact same answer :? ,

quality answer Darrel, ,
regards
john.

 

[plantbrain]

.....Remember though that GH Booster contains quite a lot of potassium sulphate as well and it may be this that is causing your plants to suddenly pearl.

I never realised that there was potassium sulphate in GH booster.

The tank is EI dosed, so a K deficiency wasn`t something that I considered. It was a surprise how differently the plants are behaving now, and the only thing I have done differently is add GH booster. They have gone from being virtually dormant, to fizzing like mad. All I have to do now is get rid of the algae that got its feet under the table. 🙁

Much more likely due to Mg limitation.

Such rapid responses are rare for K+ and Ca++.

Also, the D1 protein that splits water and starts feeding the electrons into PS1 and PSII, you know, the enzyme that actually gives off O2 as a waste product??? If you add a lot more Mg, suddenly......you will get a lot more O2. Some evidence that Mg++ helps in addition to the Chl a/b for increasing O2 and e- transfer rates.
I've had confirmed Mg deficiencies years ago. Anubias expressed it the best visually based on classic crop examples.

You can stop dosing GH booster, wait about 3-4 weeks, then dose just MgSO4, and note response.
Then repeat once, twice then you can confirm it fairly reasonably. The other thing is to do a plant tissue analysis, send it off to a lab to get the % Mg in the stressed plant vs healthy.

Still, GH booster is sort of hit all targets type of product, Mg, Ca++, K+
Less guess and more estimation and upkeep like EI.
From there you can slowly taper off, then note plant health, then raise back up to the next highest dosing once you see any negative response.




Regards,
Tom Barr






Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Dave Spencer]

Well, I wrote a lengthyish reply that disappeared in the ether. That`s a few million electrons that died for nothing. Thanks to everyone for their help, especially Tom and Darryl.

I think I`ll give MgSO4 a go sometime, and figure out how much I need to dose to keep my plants happy. Who would have thought adding Mg can trigger pearling in this manner? :idea:

Dave.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

lso, the D1 protein that splits water and starts feeding the electrons into PS1 and PSII, you know, the enzyme that actually gives off O2 as a waste product??? If you add a lot more Mg, suddenly......you will get a lot more O2. Some evidence that Mg++ helps in addition to the Chl a/b for increasing O2 and e- transfer rates. I've had confirmed Mg deficiencies years ago. Anubias expressed it the best visually based on classic crop examples.

I didn't know this, but it would certainly make senses as when you add foliar magnesium you get a very rapid response to it.

cheers Darrel

 

[chris1004]

In my mind all Dave's problems could have been avoided if he had used a test kit in the first place.

I often carry out lab analysis of power station boiler water, and am not aware of an off the shelf test kit that would be even remotely accurate in telling me the Mg levels of my tap water. I used to test tap/tank for everything in the early days, but I won`t be taking that step backwards. This was a basic error that others that fertilise their tanks should take note of. I has an entirely new type of algae, to me, which should have been the single, biggest indicator.

Dave.

Hi,

Sorry Dave what I meant is that if you had done a quick GH test reading with a home test kit it would have shown the water to have been different to that from your old house. Unless of course you had exactly the right ammount of extra calcium in the water to make up the short fall for the lack of magnesium, which would be highly unlikely.

It may have pointed the way foward earlier thats all I'm suggesting, but I'm glad you've got it sorted out now and although most of the chemistry is above my head I've found reading this thread very interesting.

Regards, Chris.

 

[plantbrain]

Well, I wrote a lengthyish reply that disappeared in the ether. That`s a few million electrons that died for nothing. Thanks to everyone for their help, especially Tom and Darryl.

I think I`ll give MgSO4 a go sometime, and figure out how much I need to dose to keep my plants happy. Who would have thought adding Mg can trigger pearling in this manner? :idea:

Dave.

Do like we did 15 years ago with PMDD, add MgSO4 to the trace liquid or directly to CMS. Then you are covered. I add a little to my traces for good measure.

Some PPS loonies claimed excess Mg stunted tips in certain plants above at 10ppm, well my tap had 52ppm so I knew that could not be correct when I grew these plants:



When folks give actual data, then we have something to compare and test against :idea:
Many do not do this (meaning they do not test much or like belief more than experimenting/questioning) and just go with the dogma that makes them feel good.

I do not think you will really ever need more than say 2-5ppm however.
That's an easy target to hit in general 1-2x a week or so.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[plantbrain]

Hi all,

lso, the D1 protein that splits water and starts feeding the electrons into PS1 and PSII, you know, the enzyme that actually gives off O2 as a waste product??? If you add a lot more Mg, suddenly......you will get a lot more O2. Some evidence that Mg++ helps in addition to the Chl a/b for increasing O2 and e- transfer rates. I've had confirmed Mg deficiencies years ago. Anubias expressed it the best visually based on classic crop examples.

I didn't know this, but it would certainly make senses as when you add foliar magnesium you get a very rapid response to it.

cheers Darrel

Well, if you think about certain nutrients in the holistic plant biochemistry.........then these biochemical pathways are bit like the highway/tube system.

1. If the enzymes are messed up, or need to be rebuilt, more added suddenly, then you have construction and delays like the highways. Carbon......Fe........and a few others are slower responses, but really get going well once stable and the flow of traffic(growth/health) really goes along at a good clip.

2. If you suddenly fix something that is an easy fix, say like increase PPi, or add Mg++ that's strongly limiting, holding back electron flow, ATP production, plants will still deal with and live with strong limitations, but when it's relieved, the plants do not have to make enzymes to gear up, they just need the quick fix of the inorganic nutrient, little assimilation is required.

Making more Rubsico on the other hand if the CO2 drops suddenly?
That's a much larger and more complex job for the plant and requires a lot more resources and pathways.

45 minute responses are common with PO4 under strong limitation. Might be a little longer with Mg, but in a few hours........not too bad. Chl a/b are also N rich, so that can cause issues if the tank is N limited, some use this to get more red out by N limiting the plants slightly to reduce the green color masking of the red pigments.

Anything that can help increase that rate of water splitting and drive the photosystem faster, produce more of them etc, the better for pearling, growth. Then there is the whole CO2 fixation part in the next stage in Calvin cycle.
PSI and PSII are fast responses, the CO2 fixation is slower.
Light is even faster response.

Photosynthesize this:
Try photo shoots with lots of high light, then run all the lamps, and stop the flow of the water in the tank, remove the equipment etc.

Wait about 1 hour.

The aquarium should be pearling like never before.
This level cannot be sustained easily, but makes a nice pretty pic.

You can also mega dose, or dosing 2x the normal amount a day before a large water change.
This pumps the plants full of nutrients, then they are removed later. Good large water changes= adds CO2/exposes plants to air and non limiting CO2 for a few moments and also adds lots of O2.
Then later that evening, do the photo shoot.

Try this sometime.
ADA does something like this for their shoots.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Dave Spencer]

Well, here is my first fish tank shot since May last year. 😳

It is my usual warts and all type, simply due to laziness, but primarily due to wanting to show exactly how it is right now, in hope of showing a big improvement at a later date.

This tank took a monumental amount of time and effort to turn it around, and still has a long way to go. I can`t honestly understand why that is so, but the brown fuzzy stuff that took over in the early days has been tenacious, to say the least. It is still present in the moss and the E parvula, but is just about the last type of alga to have any kind of strong foot hold.

Rhizoclonium and Spirogyra both gave me a good run for my money. The Rhizo was particularly fond of the Marsilea crenata, and treating it with Excel resulted in a lot of dying off of the Marsilea.

I intend to shift the piece of wood at back right so that it doesn`t disappear behind the front piece, from the camera view point. The Java fern is just starting to take hold, and will need sorting out soon. I`m hoping to have a fair amount growing forewards and down towards the roots at the front. The Cryptocoryne undulata and Marsilea also need a bit more work (I don`t like the clover shaped leaves it occasionally gives off), but I am still a little reluctant to carry out any major pruning as the game isn`t won, yet.

I am seriously considering some studio lighting because I would like to have a little go at portrait photography. I have no doubt that this would improve my tank shots, but we will see. The shot below was taken with tank lights and a flash gun pointed down the back, and fired wirelessly. I have two flash guns I could fire this way, but it is awkward to get the second flash to pick up the commander firing when they are both in the position I want to try. First and foremost, I would like a printer.

Hopefully the next shot will be without equipment, full on hair dryer etc...but don`t bet on it.

My thanks to all of you who have stayed with this thread, and to all the advice offered.



Dave.

 

[flygja]

Pretty inspiring war story I admire your steadfastness. The tank is looking nice now. I would've just emptied the tank and started again

 

[Anonymous]

There are some "design" issues Dave:

- the hairgrass is too compact and tends to keep all the nasty stuff, I'd pull it siphon the tank and plant it again.
- the flow is not right, the water stops where your marsilea is (that's why you have BBA there), the flow should be from one side to the other, not front to back. I'd switch the spray bar with a lily pipe placed on the right (front) of the tank so the water will move in circles and I'd move the right branch a little bit to the left so it doesn't block the stream coming from the powerhead.

Don't be lazy to pull all your lawn, clean the tank and plant it again 🙂.

Good luck!

Cheers,
Mike

 

[Dave Spencer]

..the hairgrass is too compact and tends to keep all the nasty stuff, I'd pull it siphon the tank and plant it again.

I could say most of this tank needs a trim, but I am concentrating on plant mass and stability at the moment, but the hairgrass is in for a good kicking soon.

- the flow is not right,the water stops where your marsilea is (that's why you have BBA there)...

I am not entirely sure how you come to this conclusion, Mike. There is no BBA.

....the flow should be from one side to the other, not front to back.

I did have a lily pipe in here, but I have found myself moving back to spray bars for distribution. The spray bar is moving water to the front glass, then down. The power head is taking CO2 bubbles along the back, and down, and then across the substrate to the opposite corner. Planting isn`t too dense or flow restrictive at the moment, but I may have to change things as the Java fern grows. Thanks for the input, Mike.

Dave.

 

[Anonymous]

Rhizo sorry Dave 🙂. Well you have all the time in the world for maintenance/trimming and adjusting the co2 & flow.
You cant try some Amano shrimps to see if they clean up the rhizo.

 

[Dave Spencer]

I have heard that Amano`s like Rhizo. There are Cherry and Blue(?) shrimp in there, but they are not touching the stuff.

There is plenty of time to sort things out, but this tank has been up since about February. It almost looks newly planted to me. The Java fern leaves are half the size of my other tank.

Dave.

 

[Garuf]

I've just read and re-read this thread 3 times back now and I'm noticing something similar to I noticed in my nano, Dave did you experience glassy/yellowy stems?

I've just upped my EI dosing to 25ml and increased the levels of kno3 and mgso4 in my mix, because my rotala was/is throwing out leaves up to 4cm long and the leaves appear "glassy", I'm not seeing any particular change as it's only been a week but the pearling is insane now. I don't know my tap CA or MG levels but I suspect they're lower than I believed and I might benefit from Gh boosters higher levels of mg and k?
I'm going to keep the higher levels of dosing going to see if I see any further benefits but having a tank that looks like lemonade is a sure sign of health to me?
Any input would be gladly received.