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Tall 250l - Y llechen ogof

Now your winning the battle. The MA guy missinformed you about sprinting Assasins, either that or mine are plain lazy. I think I've lost some of mine, they seem to hide for weeks then you see 1 here and there.

Now your ahead and things are settling, have a look at cryptocoryne wendtii green. Low in height and sticking with your low tech theme, it would give some nice foreground cover and contrast. I have some in my nano and it seems to be the most stable and reliable plant in there hovering around 2 - 3 inches. I must do a low tech crypt only tank, (ok crypts n moss).

Keep up the good work. :thumbup:
 
Thanks as ever for the praise guys. Does my ego the world of good. :oops:

foxfish said:
... Pelia has become a real nuisance in my tank ...
Well if you have some you want to get rid of, the wood on the right would benefit from some more cover.
Thinks to self - hang on, that means going swimming again. :crazy:

Bobtastic said:
A little bit of GSA will probably lend to a more natural looking tank so I don't think it's anything to worry about ...
All you need to do is finish that damn spray bar! ...
FFS! Give me a brake Bob! Did I mention I was busy. I'll get the spray bar done soon. As soon as I've earned some money to pay for the damn tank. Jeez. What's a guy to do. Now stop worrying about my tardiness and go do something useful like scrubbing the algae from your rocks or poisoning your Otos. ;)
Speaking of algae, and to save me typing GSA into Google (yes I spotted the irony of typing in here) what are the causes / remedies for GSA? Will my Algae Crew eat it?

spyder said:
...The MA guy missinformed you about sprinting Assasins ... they seem to hide for weeks then you see 1 here and there.
... have a look at cryptocoryne wendtii green. ...
I think I read somewhere that Assassins tend to bury themselves in the substrate and "leap out" when food passes. Your's may still be in there, just in Ninja Stealth Mode.
The existing Crypts are Wendtii. I didn't order any particular colour, and none was specified by the supplier, but they've turned out to be the brown ones. I do want to add something else (possibly in a couple more months) possibly replacing some of the Wisteria, but I'd like to add some more variety of colour. Except for the Crypts, everything is mid green. dw1305 suggested Red Tiger Lotus, which is a strong contender. or maybe something like this?
 
idris said:
Bobtastic said:
A little bit of GSA will probably lend to a more natural looking tank so I don't think it's anything to worry about ...
All you need to do is finish that damn spray bar! ...
FFS! Give me a brake Bob! Did I mention I was busy. I'll get the spray bar done soon. As soon as I've earned some money to pay for the damn tank. Jeez. What's a guy to do. Now stop worrying about my tardiness and go do something useful like scrubbing the algae from your rocks or poisoning your Otos. ;)
Speaking of algae, and to save me typing GSA into Google (yes I spotted the irony of typing in here) what are the causes / remedies for GSA? Will my Algae Crew eat it?

Man up ya tart! ;) :p :thumbup:

Jame's Algae Guide is good to pinpoint the exact algae, but must admit the advice seems more for high tech setups... I am assuming it's GSA. And it's rude to kick a man in the Otto's whilest he's suffering from the algaes!

Apparently Ottos do not eat GSA but stiphodon percnopterygionus "love the stuff".
 
Green spot algae is usually down to low phosphates from what I remember. If it's on rock work, when you come to water change day or just a neat and tidy day, use a tooth brush to just rub it off. With low tech tanks I dont really know a remedy for it, mine just seemed to stop when I began dosing ei. Maybe try that long named individual bob mentioned :0)
 
Y ogof is going well. There will be an update coming at some point, but work is stupidly busy just now, so it may be a few weeks away. Just to wet your appetite, there will be tales of plants heading for the surface nicely, moss and getting wet, possibly a little planting (not had time for that either), a little algae, and snails both appearing and disappearing.
Thanks for the interest.
 
At long last, an update.

I've had a couple of massive work projects that have robbed me of pretty much all my free time (anything up to 16hr days, 7 days a week) for a couple of months or so, and not only have I not had time to update the journal, I've barely had time to do water changes, let alone any other deep water chores. But we're getting back on track now.

I'm really pretty happy with the plant growth over the last couple of months.

The Crypts have filled out nicely.

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I think they've lost a little of their brown colour, and I suspect that may be down to light levels. (I assume it's the same as red plants in that they need a lot of light to maintain their non-green colour.) If I trim the Vallis and Wisteria, hopefully that will help as they are reducing the amount of light that can get to the Crypts.
It has amused me (at my own expense) that Crypt Wendtti usually seems to be sold as a mid-ground plant, as having a stupidly deep tank, for me it's very much a foreground plant.

Equally the Amazon Swords really aren't a background plant for me. Not to suggest they haven't grown well, as some are over 12” high and only have a couple of damaged leaves.

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The Swords that I feared had died definitely have. So I think there is room for a few more in the near future. Having seen the all plants grow, I now have a much better idea of how many to order.
I mention the damaged leaves because they have highlighted yet another reason to not have a tank this deep and narrow, and why I am very glad to be aiming for a low maintenance tank: dealing with the plants is an utter nightmare :rolleyes:. There are two factors : 1) even with long scissors / tweezers, I get wet very nearly to my arm pit if I need to get to the bottom and 2) the refraction caused by 2.5 ft of water means it's virtually impossible to get a sense of where things are in the tank when I'm shoulder deep in it. This was exemplified when I tried to trim a dead leaf from the Swords and in the process, uprooted a large chunk of Vallis ... Which was then a complete ***** to replant. :(

However, the Vallis is definitely a success story.

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If memory serves me, there was about a foot between the tallest leaves and the surface of the water when I started. Now there is more than a foot of Vallis across the surface, the leaves having reached the top some time ago and trimming is definitely on the cards. The plants have also sent out some really strong looking runners which are in turn starting to grow leaves.

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I've long wanted to steer clear of the ubiquitous Vallis curtain at the back of the tank, and were it not for the shelf and the Wisteria, there is something approaching that already. But the shelf does provide a great natural barrier for that - an unexpected bonus.

The Wisteria has certainly done what it was supposed to, as a fast growing plant, and the taller stems reached the top of the tank a few weeks ago.

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As the picture shows, the leaf growth is almost exclusively in the top 12” of stem, with the lower part being almost completely bare, except for runners. I suspect I should have pruned all this quite a while ago to promote leaf growth lower down, and given the rate of growth and number of runners, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Wisteria take over the tank, given the opportunity. However, it has long been the plan to use it to help establish the tank quickly, and then replace it, so maybe it's days are numbered and it will be coming to a Sale/Swap page near you very soon.

The Hairgrass has done OK.

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It's not the carpet I would like, yet, and having read about such foreground plants before I started, without pressurised CO2, the odds of achieving that quickly are supposedly slim. But there has been significant growth in terms of height and there have been plenty of runners, some of which have set themselves free and floated off, but I'm pretty sure others have taken root. So hopes are still high. As with the rest of the tank, I haven't got round to pruning the grass yet, but it's on the cards and hopefully that will promote lateral growth. The down side is the Wisteria seems to have inhibited the growth of the Hairgrass on top of the shelf, but as mentioned, the Wisteria is coming out so hopefully the Hairgrass will regain some territory.

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In writing this journal entry I've went back to review the last batch of pics I posted, and the main thing that steuck me is how well the mosses have grown in.

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Getting the mosses into the tank was another example of why tall tanks are ****.
Having tied the it on, as mentioned in a previous update, I was hoping the cotton holding it on would last till it had secured itself. Which of course it didn't. So I had the painful task of securing it a second time with everything still in the tank. Redoing the shelf was going to be a major PITA so I decided not to do that and hope for the best.
And thankfully I seem to have got away with it!

As with the Vallis and Wisteria, I think the moss would benefit form some pruning, though I am not confident how much yet. I think the Taiwan moss just needs thinning a bit on the right hand wood, but it is a bit of a mess on the shelf. I think the latter may not look so bad if trimmed along with some light pruning to the Hairgrass. We shall see.

Since I'm not using pressurised CO2, in the hope of kick starting growth, quite a while ago I tried administering liquid carbon. I was warned (somewhere in this jounal IIRC) that it may be detrimental to the Vallis, and I think there may have been some melt, so I stopped using it. Not using it doesn’t seem to have done any harm, nor has there been any long term damage to the Vallis. I also ran out of ferts, and have just relied on the natural chemistry of fish and plants to look after that side of thigs. Obviously it's not perfect, but it's low tech and not a disaster by any means.

That said, in my last proper update I mentioned a little GSA. Not surprisingly this spread, but only really to the glass.

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A lack of time for tank maintenance saw quite a significant layer, but a good scrape with a razor seemed to do a lot of good, though there does seem to be a thin layer coming back on the glass in less than a week. I know many suggest increasing phosphates, but this kind of goes against my low tech approach. I've also seen talk of just toughing it out and waiting for tank maturity to get the better of GSA, and though I have no idea how long this would take with a tank this size, it does concur with my (limited) previous experience. Any thoughts on this would be more than welcome.

I've hardly seen my Assassin Snails recently, but I know they like to hide in the substrate, and I have seen almost no signs of pest snails since only a few days after the Assassin's were introduced. So I am not concerned about their demise, but I really like seeing them so I'm a little disappointed. A couple of weeks ago I spotted an entirely different snail, one of size and shape I've not seen the like of before. Unfortunately I only had my phone's camera to hand and it has only made one brief appearance, so any help identifying it would be appreciated.

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There is nothing significant to report on the rest of the livestock. On the ocsasions I've sat and watched the tank recently I've not managed to count a full compliment of anything except the Dwarf Blue Rainbows. But we all know counting a small schoal of Neons in a well planted tank is nigh on impossible, and there are so many places out of sight for the Ottos and shrmps to hide, it's not really surprising. Maybe one evening I'll just spend a whole eveing sat in front of the tank (rather than repeats of Mock The Week on Dave Ja Vu :rolleyes: ) and try a propper head count. There is pleanty of room for more fish, and hopefully soon I will get round to adding a little more colour – probably something with some orange or reds.

I think the thing I am most proud of is achieving is what seems to be one of the holy grails of planted tanks. Despite running the tank almost as low tech as it's possible to get, I have seen signs of pearling.



To be fair, this may be misplaced on my part – I've only seen it a couple of times, and only in small areas of the tank, but with low light and no pressurised CO2, I'm really pleased to have shown that it can be done. (I look forward to someone telling me that this isn't actually pearling. :oops: )

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It's been a difficult time for my tank in the last few weeks.

It all started with the inevitable algal bloom. Predominantly GDA on the front glass, but a little GSA on the pipework and some sort of hair algae on leaves. Thankfully the latter hasn't been too bad and you have too look for it.
The general diagnosis seems to be a lack of CO2, but as anyone who's followed this journal will know, that's a route I'm reluctant to take.

Water tests at the time showed a possible slight increase in ammonia, though whether that was real is difficult to say as the test solution was neither one colour on the test chart nor the next, and they're notoriously inaccurate anyway. Nonetheless, I decided to do. 20% water change rather than the usual 10%.

And that's when things started going badly wrong.
A day or two later and a Rainbow was dead, with no obvious reason.
Next day another Rainbow had died.
Some panic research and water tests (my own and at LFS), and I did another 10% water change, upped the temp a couple of degrees and introduced an air stone.
Next day another 2 Rainbows were down.
For fear of doing anything else wrong, I just left things as they were. Add to that another Rainbow was breathing heavily and one of the Killis was clamped. Bearing in mind my last tank (about 2 years ago now) just collapsed and wiped out about 15 fish in a week, at this stage I was fearing the worst. (For the record the circumstances were entirely different, but the fear was just as real.)
The next day there were no casualties, but the day after another Rainbow was dead, leaving just one.
And a couple of days later a Killi was dead as well. I've mentioned before the pitfalls of my tall tank, but this time I fell foul of my hardscaping: the Killi's corpse was in the large cave and there was absolutely no chance of retrieving it, until couple of days later when the flayed skeleton worked it's way out into the open and could be removed from the tank.

Whilst this was all going on I spoke to our water company and the duty Water Quality Team guy was really helpful. Not at all definsive or “party line” as I expect companies to be, so I'm inclined to take what he said on faith. He went off and looked into what had been going on locally and there were no obvious reasons like chlorine or chloramine.

So the cause remains a mystery.
I've since nervously done another water change, and three days later I have no causlaties. Phew!

Other than the fish trauma, I should really turn some attention to the plants. This is, after all, the UKAPS forum ;)

The Wisteria seems to have done as much growing as it's going to. I almost certainly should have cut it back as it grew, but I never really got round to it, and all the foliage is on the top few inches of each stem. I had latterly tried nipping this back, in the hope of promoting growth further down, but this hasn't really worked, and those stems just died. I never really liked the Wisteria anyway, so it's time has come and it will be getting puled out iminently.
In the long term, the Hair Grass has also dissapointed me. Either this really does need CO2, or my hopes were too high for it, or both. Whilst it has grown, and sent out runners, the density of the grass hasn't increased much, and for some reason I regualrly find small pieces of it floating on the water's surface, I suspeect having been uprooted by the tank's fauna.
Between the Wisteria and the Hairgrass, the middle of the tank looks a bit scruffy, so a small revamp is due and I've ordered some new plants.
Fot the background I've gone for Echinodorus Cordifolius. I'm not sure I've got this choice right aesthetically, but we'll see what it's like.
To go on the roof of the shelf in front of the Cordifolius I've gone for Cryptocoryne Lingua. I think this is a similar shape and hopefully will give some graduation and a sense of depth..
For right at the front of the tank I've ordered Echinodorus Tennellus. Again this is similar to the Amazon Swords and hopefuly will provide graduation across the tank as well.

The new plants shoud be with me by the end of the week and be in the tank over the weekend.

Getting back to the fish …

It's an ill wind etc, and the demise of all but one of the Rainbows is an opportunity to get some more fish. The male Gouramis are really quite aggressive towards eachother so I'm going to get some females as soon as 1) I'm confident that what ever killed the Rainbows has passed, 2) the LFS has some in and 3) I've got the replanting done.
I've also got my eye on some Cherry Red Shrimp.

I don't know whether I still have a full compliment of Otos and Amanos. I rarely see them these days, and I don't think I've seen more than 3 (of each) at any one time. The Otos certainly seem to be more active at night now, but I don't know whether they're all hiding or dead. I hope it's the former. I'm contempting some night / dusk lighting for the tank, but there doesn't seem to be much of a concensus on the best way to do this. I shall try to figure that out in time for a letter to Santa.

The Assassins also are a lot harder to find these days, though that was what I expected. I have seen them in the last couple of days, but I've also got an infestation of pest snails as well so they're not doing their job as well as they had been. I suspect the increase in pest snails is down to the increase in temperature, or the Assassins have been at it like Platties; they're just too small for me to tell yet.
 
Today has seen me spend about 5 hrs in my tank. I don't know how it's taken so long, but it has. A significant proportion of that time was taken up by catching livestock and draining about 60% of the tank. I would like to have drained more water, but there's a cavity in one of the pieces of wood that I'm pretty sure the Amanos have colonised, and I didn't want to leave them stranded in it if I drained the water below it.

My Wisteria and Hairgrass had been earmarked for replacement and a little over a week ago I ordered some more plants from Plants Alive. I've never felt I cold justify the cost of Tropica plants and I've been reasonably happy with what I've had from Plants Alive so far. As mentioned last time I'd chosen Echinodorus Cordifolius (background), Cryptocoryne Lingua (centre ground) and Echinodorus Tennellus (foreground).

Unfortunately circumstances have conspired against me this time, as the Cordifolius wasn't in stock, and rather than advising me of this before shipping anything, they sent the Lingua and Tennellus straight away and said the Cordifolius would follow ASAP. As I didn't want to disrupt the tank more than necessary, I really wanted to do the replanting in one hit, so I put the Lingua and Tennellus in a bucket with a heater and waited for the Cordifolius to turn up.

The Lingua and Tennellus both looked pretty healthy when they arrived, but what turned out to be the best part of a week in a bucket has taken it's toll on the Crypts. Of 9 plants, (3 pots worth) there is only one leaf left between them, and that isn't completely healthy.

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I'm wouldn't suggest that they were unhealthy plants that were supplied, and as far as I can tell Crypts are notorious for melting, but with hindsight it would have been nice to have been offered the choice of having all the plants shipped together. Maybe they would still have suffered, and my Crypt Wenditti ended up in a similar state, but are now doing very well. So hopefully the Lingua will do the same.

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The Tennellus was chosen as a direct replacement for the Hair Grass. When I had a look at pictures I thought the leaves were broader than they've turned out to be. My concern is that they will not fare much better than the Hair Grass, but time will tell

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I think the Cordifolius is possibly an example of why Tropica plants may be better quality … even if they are not particularly cost effective. It may be that the leaves are meant to be a little yellowed, but from the little I know about plants, my guess is that these weren't the best of specimens.

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But as with the Crypts, I have faith in the pants ability to recover.
The Cordifolius was the big buggerance factor of the replant. Despite adding some more akadama on the roof of the cave, I had real problems trying to get the roots to stay buried and almost every plant floated free … at least once … or five times. It was most frustrating when the tank was almost completely refilled, and one plant floated free, and replanting that uprooted three more :rolleyes: but I got there in the end.

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A couple of my other recent threads have dealt with my missing Ottos and Amanos. I've seen relatively little of either in the last few months, and I don't think I've seen an Ottos for a couple of weeks or more. Add the fact that I had a spate of unexplained deaths, and my failure to catch either species in a bottle trap, I had serious doubts that there were any left alive in the tank. But having removed all the other fish to a temporary tank for a few hours, out they all came, despite my rummaging around and churning up the substrate. At least 5 each of the Ottos and Amanos. And I figure if I can find 5 of each, there's a pretty good chance the 6th is ok too. So I' really chuffed about that. Unfortunately, as soon as the other fish went back in the tank, the Ottos disappeared again, and so have most of the shrimps.

I did try to take some photos to prove they’re still there, but this was the closest I got to a usable picture.
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There is a bizarre foot note to the replanting process.
My tank has a couple of openings for pipes etc. As condensation was giving me minor issues with warping of the wooden lid, I had covered these holes up with cling film. (I shall get round to something more permanent one day.) As I was putting the lid back on the tank I spotted a desiccated corpse – one of the two Killifish that I'd lost. I knew one had died, but the other had just gone missing. It seems there must have been a slight gap between the glass and the cling film, and the fish must have just jumped out of the water and got stuck. A real pity, but pretty much unforeseeable.

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The whole tank has a very different feeling with the new plants, and it definitely needs to grow a little to look good again. The changes have made me think I probably trimmed the Taiwan Moss (RHS wood) more than I should have. But it seems to grow easily. So whilst I'm happy it will grow back, I may delay getting some CRS until it has filled out again.

And the obligatory tank shot ...
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After a year of the tank being up and running (and about 4 months since I last updated this journal) I thought it over due that I did an update.

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Plant growth has been generally pleasing.
The Vallis Americana has thrived, and when I've given it the opportunity, has grown to about 5ft in length and has put out loads of runners. I think if I let it, it would take over the whole tank, but I given a load away.
The Amazon Swords again have done ok. There are the odd melting leaves once in a while, but nothing that concerns me greatly.
The Crypt Wenditti grew pretty well, but don't seem to have tried to spread in the way the Vallis and Swords have, but that may be a characteristic of Crypts – I don't know.

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The Echinodorus Cordifolius hasn't been a success. Of 9 plants that went in originally, only three have survived. As documented, they weren't the best of specimens when they arrived, but I was hopeful they'd recover. Sadly I was wrong. I do like how they look, and they fill the centre well, but I'd guess it would be good if they'd been healthier to start with.

If the Cordifolius didn't do well, the Cryptocoryne Lingua was a disaster. Of the 10 plants that went in, none survived. They weren't in good condition when they went in to the tank (I kept them in in a bucket, rather than the tank until the whole of my order was delivered, to make planting less of a chore) but to end up with none was very disappointing.

And the Echinodorus Tennellus didn’t do much better. About 25 plants went in and maybe only 4 or 5 are still going. To be fair, this may not be entirely down sub standard plants or my failure to provide them with suitable conditions, as they were plagued by male Gouramis, desperate to show off, building bubble nests, and they were constantly digging up the Tennellus.

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On the wood, the Round Pelia has done really well. Possibly too well. Although I trimmed it back a while ago, I have not particularly kept on top of the Pelia, and whilst it has done really well on the wood it was originally attached to, it has also spread anywhere it could. As a result, every once in a while I find myself pulling up large clumps of it from between the Amazon Swords and Crypts.

The Taiwan Moss did really well to start with. (See pictures from Jan at the top of page 16.) The I cut it back, and it's never really recovered. There are plenty of small wispy pieces to be found around the tank, and there is still some on the wood, but it has never filled out to what it was before I trimmed it. I've tried to remember recently whether the trimming coincided with me stopping using ferts (because I ran out and didn't get round to buying more), which could account for the moss failing to grow, but I really cant remember the timing. I have recently bought some more all-in-one ferts from Aquarium Plant Food and we'll see if that makes a difference.

Right
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There's a degree to which I'm hoping adding ferts will also help with the algal problems I've had. Despite GDA only being supposed to have something like a 6 week life cycle, mine has resolutely refused to go away. I've also had filamental algae problems, which are particularly bad just now on some of the Vallis and the Cordifolius. From what I’ve read, adding ferts may actually work in favour plants and in tern that may give the algae less of a life line. We'll see.

Not that the algae can be blamed exclusively on a lack of ferts. If you look at the back of the tank in the top pic, and reference it against pictures early in this journal, you'll see that the filter outlet has never changed. And the pipes have never been quite what I intended. For a very long time, I have meant to make some new pipes – larger diameter, and with a proper spray bar. This should help with circulation, which in turn, should help combat the likes of the GDA.

One other minor hardware point of note is that, having had the doors for the cabinet reconstructed by Beaumont Joiners in Redbourne (whose staff repeatedly lied to me about progress, and even then did what I consider a very poor job) the centre panels of the doors have both subsequently split. This makes me think the job they did was done even more badly that just in terms of aesthetics. And I'm not sure what the long term solution is to that.

As for livestock …

I have had a couple of bad periods with fish illness. As a result, I have lost half the original Neons, 6 out of 9 Dwarf Red Gouramis, 3 out of 4 Kilifish, and all 6 Dwarf Blue Rainbows. This has not all been in one hit, though I did have a worrying period where quite a lot of fish dies suddenly, and without an obvious reason. But the system seemed to stabilise, and I have since added 6 Lemon Tetras, and 6 Cherry barbs. And all seems healthy at the moment.

The Amanos went AWOL for quite a few months and were hardly ever seen, but in the last month or so have become really quite active: it is currently not uncommon for me to see 5 at any one time (6 went in originally) and there are regularly discarded shucks to be found.

An apparent absence that does disappoint me a little is the Ottos. I think it was around the time the Gouramis went it, I stopped seeing the Ottos. Though I did find 5 when I did the replant in December, I have rarely seen any and when I have, it has been a solitary fish, in the middle of the night. That's not to say they're not there, but it would be nice to see them more often.

Over all, I'm not unhappy with the last year, but there are issues I need to address. I've lost more fish than I would like. I've got more algae that I would like. And do need to find some plants to fill the centre foreground. I had considered adding some CRS, but I think I have now ruled that out for the moment, on grounds of unsuitable tank mates.

So more work still to do, but certainly not a disaster.
 
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