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Tall 250l - Y llechen ogof

idris said:
...... what specific advantage would there be to having an additional 20" / 150l of empty water above the plants?

Hi Idris. The only reason I could think of would be in terms of aesthetics. Please don't get me wrong here but it would appear like so much wasted space in such a tall tank. Unless ;) ,.....now I am only bringing this up since you are increasingly open to suggestions,....

1. Fill her up till about 45 cm ( because 22 cm looks too low for a tank that size , my friend). Cut down the T8 lighting further so you have about roughly 1.3- 1.5 WPG. Bring the spray bar down to water surface level.

Convert the upper half of the aquarium space into a vivarium sort of set up. Emmersed plantsl like ferns,...nice little flowering plants ,....are you seeing the picture.

With regards to your hesitancy to fill up the tank, wasting so much water on water changes & difficulty in managing the plants ,...this should score a point in your favour.

But with respect to the fact whether this might work is open to further discussion because it's just an idea that suddenly came to me. We should consult with more experienced aquarists here.
 
a1Matt ok, ok, I'm coming round to your way of thinking (maybe it's just atrition ;) ) but what would the effect of increased water volume be on the maturation of the biological media / nitrogen cycle?

faizal said:
... The only reason I could think of would be in terms of aesthetic ... it would appear like so much wasted space in such a tall ...
Have I given the wrong impression again :rolleyes: ? It's always been the intention to have it fully flooded eventually. Probably in a few weeks when I don't need to get to the bottom of the tank on a regular basis.
 
idris said:
a1Matt ok, ok, I'm coming round to your way of thinking (maybe it's just atrition ;) ) but what would the effect of increased water volume be on the maturation of the biological media / nitrogen cycle?

I don't know :oops: Just when you were starting to come round too :lol:
 
a1Matt said:
I don't know :oops: Just when you were starting to come round too :lol:
And I thought you knew what you were talking about ;)

Alastair it's a submersible pump from a camping / caravanning shop. There are lots on eBay.
http://www.caravan-components.co.uk/epa ... tViaPortal
It doesn't come with a power supply but I had a spare 12v wall-wart kicking around. And it takes 10mm (internal) tubing. I've also knocked up a foot switch from Maplin parts, but it's not strictly necessary.
 
idris said:
I've also knocked up a foot switch from Maplin parts, but it's not strictly necessary.

Now that's a fine idea! I would like to see how that's done. Only last night I was thinking it would be handy to have and extra arm, but a foot switch would have been just as good!
 
[In a Fluff Freeman style...]
Bob Tastic of Manchester wrote to us saying
Bobtastic said:
...Only last night I was thinking it would be handy to have and extra arm, but a foot switch would have been just as good!
Well Bob, we can't help you with the extra arm, but this one goes out to you Bob. (Lot's of kisses on the bottom.)

Assuming you've got your pump, tube and power supply...
Parts:
Foot switch
Box
“Chocolate block” type connector
Small piece of sheet plastic (optional)
Grommets (optional)
Wire

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I could have opted for a push-and-hold type foot switch, the advantage being that you'll never end up pumping more water out of your tank than your bucket can hold. But the switch I used is of the push-to-make / push-to-break (DPDT) variety, so I don't have to keep a foot on it while it's pumping. So I've only used two pins out of the 6 available. This means only the +ve (red and brown) wires have a switch in between. If I'd had a 4 terminal chocolate block to hand I'd probably have had both the +ve and -ve wires switched. But it's only 12v and a low current so I'm not really bothered.

Because the box I got has vertical slots to take PCBs I bolted the chocolate block to this. (Glue would have done fine as an alternative, but I like to have the option of disassembly at a later date.)

A multimeter was used to identify a pair of switched pins on the foot switch...
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and these had a short length of wire soldered to them.

Then is was just a case of connecting the +ve wire from the transformer to the +ve of the pump via the switch, and the -ve wire from the transformer to the -ve of the pump directly.
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And that's it …
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Any questions? (I'll look out the Maplin part numbers when I've got a minute.)
 
The last week has been one of much wondering. Should I have flooded? Should I have held fast and see through the DSM?

Nearly all the Crypts' original leaves died.
Nearly all the Swords' original leaves died, and none of those that remained looked healthy. There are at least three rhizomes(?) with no leaves at all.
A significant proportion of the Hair Grass has turned quite brown and when I've accidentally uprooted some clumps there has been little evidence of root growth. The brown may well be down the Diatoms which are blooming nicely. :rolleyes:

(Interestingly, one of the places the Diatoms are most obvious is as distinct spots on the glass, and directly next to plants. I've read a couple of things on their possible causes in new tanks, but it strikes me that they are possibly related to something that the plants are expiring / excreting. Someone with more knowledge would be very welcome to baffle me with a little more biochemistry. ;) )

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The upside is that having largely left the surviving plants to get on with things themselves,...

… many of the Crypts seem to have produced one or two small new leaves in the last week :thumbup: Nothing dramatic, and a backwards step from when they arrived in the post, but it is progress.

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… some of the Swords even have some new growth. Though the predominance of dying leaves makes for a depressing view of both ends of the tank. :( And I really I don't want to depress myself by going back to look at the pictures of them when they arrived.

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… the Hair Grass, although brown and fuzzy in many places, does seem to have become a slightly more vibrant green, though that may be uncommon optimism on my part.

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Having partly flooded the tank, my mind has turned to “cycling” and since I'm new to properly planted tanks, research was needed. The consensus seems to favour heavy planting and just adding fish slowly, allowing the plants to clean up unwanted compounds.

Whilst I had planted the tank moderately, the amount of healthy plants remaining has been greatly depleted. So more plants needed to be considered. (To be fair, I had planned on adding Vallis when the tank was flooded (it would have just fallen over without water) so this was on the cards anyway.) My reading (and a couple of recommendations – thanks Faizal) got me looking at fast growing stem plants that absorb nutrients predominantly from the water column, rather than through their roots, and I liked the look of Wisteria (Hygrophillia Difformis). So 5 pots each of this and Vallisneria Spiralis were ordered, again from http://www.plantsalive.co.uk

It took me about a week after the initial flooding to start testing the water for nitrogen compounds. (I know the likes of Ceg have little faith in this, especially with domestic indicator fluids, but I feel they are at least useful as a guide.) I have deliberately left some rotting vegetation in the tank as an ammonia source and thrown in the occasional bit of old fish food I had kicking around from my last tank. That said, I have never detected any significant concentration of ammonia / ammonium. I hope this is due to my use of second hand mulm to seed the filter and the delay in testing.
Over the first few days of testing the nitrites were constant at about 5ppm, but in the last few days have dropped to zero. All pretty much making sense, and all heading in the right direction.
The slight fly in the ointment has been the nitrates: it seems my tap water contains about 40ppm nitrates and in the tank they seem to have varied day to day, from 5ppm to 80ppm. I've been assured nitrates aren't an issue in planted tanks and the advice that made most sense was ...
Bobtastic said:
As we in the planted tank world happily add large quantities of nitrates why would free nitrates in the tap water be a concern?
... so I am not going to concern myself with this, but if it all goes wrong, I'm coming for ya Bob ;) But my interpretation is that by adding more plants, especially the like of the Wisteria, the nitrates may well fall.

Again I was initially impressed by the quality and quantity supplied by PlantsAlive – the bag of Wisteria was absolutely full ...

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... though disappointingly the plants in 2 of the pots were significantly smaller than the other 3.

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Unwrapping the Wisteria I was increasingly disappointed, BUT I should add that this may be unjustified. Having had pretty respectable roots on all the other plants, all the Wisteria were just cuttings.

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Thankfully it turns out I have some experience of stem plants from the few scraggy plants I had in my previous tanks, and realising how these plants self propagate, certain things made a little more sense. Stem plants, it seems, are called stem plants as that's pretty much all they are – stems with leaves and nominal root systems that send out runners. So ok, fair enough, I'm not going to grumble about lack of roots on the Wisteria, but I do feel that perhaps they shouldn't be sold as “pots”: the price wasn't significantly different to buying a bunch, but for those with little experience, I think it may be a little misleading.
That aside, I have ended up with far more Wisteria than I expected and I nearly threw some away.
The up side (jeez – it's really not like me to see up sides, and certainly not this regularly ;) ) is that the smaller plants work well to add graduation, front to back.

The Vallis all seemed a good size, an average of 16” and would fit well with the height of my tank without much need for growth.

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My initial experience of planting the tank definitely made me think that it was easier to do with no water in the tank at all. So I drained it completely, keeping as much of the water as possible in the dustbin previously used to soak the bogwood. I could have just chucked all the water away and started from scratch, but I estimated that as it is, filling the tank would equate to about a 2/3rds water change, and saw no benefit to a 100% change of water.

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(The two chairs are there just so I could get inside the tank, and even then it's a PITA. (Who's stupid idea was it to have a tall tank? :rolleyes: )

The plan has always been to have the Vallis at the back, but I figured a “Vallis curtain” all the way across will look a little dull. The Wisteria is supposed to grow relatively tall, and I figured would fill the centre background quite well. Bearing in mind the quantity of Wisteria I've ended up with, the Vallis has ended up more densely planted and pushed further into the corners than expected. And with hindsight some more across the back will probably look quite good.

The biggest problem I've had with the Wisteria is stopping the stuff floating off. Google leads me to believe this is a common problem.
First I stripped off the lower leaves and just pushed bare stems into the substrate. Did that work? Ha bloody ha.
Second, and after a little help from Uncle Google, I tried trimming back the lower stems and buried a couple of the lower leaves. Success? See above.
There are two further options I shall try before I just let it float: using some cotton to tie a couple of stems together, in a “V” shape, in the hope that this will help the substrate hang on to them. And failing that I may well have some old lead strip from bye gone days.
If all else fails and I just leave it all to float, there is one concern: how much shade it casts over the other plants. But I shall address that if it becomes a problem.

What ever happens, having bought the Wisteria, I'm now not that keen on it aesthetically, so I suspect it may only be in the tank a (relatively) short while before it's appears on the Sale/Swap/Wanted board.

One other consequence of the large mass of Wisteria was that some of the Crypts had to be moved. I was a little nervous as the leaves are somewhat frail, and although they look unhealthy above the substrate, there are quite a few new roots starting to emerge. I really didn't want to trim these back and I am hoping I haven't damaged them when re-planing.

There is still some moss to be added, courtesy of a1Matt though I fear I may have messed up a little here. There is cotton in place to tie it to the shelf, as trying to thread the cotton through the (specially drilled) holes will be nigh on impossible without removing the shelf. Chaos! Unfortunately it seems the cotton is already getting fragile after a few weeks under water. I hope it lasts long enough to hold moss on, but we shall see. There will also be some going on the wood, but this shouldn't be a problem.

The remaining part of the equation is the Algae Crew. (I love that term :D )
My initial plan has been for some Ottos, Amano Shrimps and Assassin Snails, with other fish TBC to follow. All very standard. The Ottos have been quite hard to find, but after some phoning around I think I have finally located some, albeit a little further away than I wanted. I shall keep an eye on the tank over the next week, just to make sure nothing goes wrong and then see about introducing some fauna.

But this does leave me with a couple of questions for the experts:
1) What would be good numbers respectively of Ottos, shrimps and snails to start with? (These will not be the stars of the tank in terms of quantity, but rather just to keep the algae in check.)
2) Would it be ok to add them all on the same day?

(A picture of the whole tank wil follow as soon as I've got the floating Witeria issue resolved.)
 
After much faffing around the Wisteria is stuck in the substrate. So a picture is in order …

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The keen eyed will spot the tank is not yet full. I still have to add some moss and as I shall almost certainly have to drain a significant proportion of the tank to affix that, I see no purpose in adding more water.

I'm generally pretty happy with it. Even though it's only my first really attempt at aquascaping and my first properly planted tank I feel, with a little better planning it would look even better.

My view on the different areas …

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Amazon Swords (red) : obviously this has been a bit of a disaster. Stil, some of it is growing slowly and I still hope it will survive.

Crypt Wendtii (pink) : yes, they're in there. And are starting to grow. How big they'll get, or wuite how they'll look in the end, I can only guess.

Dwarf Hair Grass (pale blue) : the fact that some of the tufts are starting to have healthy looking blades pointing further away from vertical makes me wonder whether it is trying to spread. There is quite a lot of diatom algae effecting this, and it will be at least a week before any fauna are introduced to tackle this. So fingers crossed.

Vallis Spirallis (green) : in the short term I may have planted this over too small an area, or I should have bought more of it. On the left it is a little crowded by the Wisteria, and I think it needs to spread more towards the centre of the tank. On the right I'd like it to spread behind the upright section of the wood, but the hardscaping may prove prohibitive on that front. Some of this looks as though it may be struggling a little (even though it's only been in the tank for a few days) – I'm dosing with ferts and have some “liquid carbon” on the way so hopefully it won't go the way of the Swords.

Wisteria (dark blue) : although I have reservations about the look of the Wisteria, I like the effect this section has, and how it surrounds the wood. Long term, this will either stay as is, or get replaced with something that gives the same feeling, albeit a different plant.

Wisteria (yellow) : this is the section I am least happy with. It's too bushy and just looks a little messy. It will almost certainly go at some point and get replaced, although I don't know what with.


One thing that is becoming apparent is that I may have pump issues and I'm getting a lot less turn over than I would expect. This may well be down to my pipework as it has a slightly smaller diameter than the stock pipes. There is an EX1200 winging it's way to me as I type and I shall experiment with this, my current xP2 and different pipes to see what improvements can be made.
 
i have the same diatoms starting to for on my glass, and the hairgrass is starting to go like yours. how do i get rid of it?
 
idris said:
Vallis Spirallis (green) : in the short term I may have planted this over too small an area, or I should have bought more of it. On the left it is a little crowded by the Wisteria, and I think it needs to spread more towards the centre of the tank. On the right I'd like it to spread behind the upright section of the wood, but the hardscaping may prove prohibitive on that front. Some of this looks as though it may be struggling a little (even though it's only been in the tank for a few days) – I'm dosing with ferts and have some “liquid carbon” on the way so hopefully it won't go the way of the Swords.

I was told by Andyh on the weekend of TGM meet that Vallis does NOT like liquid carbon. I think to the point of it melting when it is used on/or near it... Can someone else confirm this for me?
 
I have found in the past, if you OD on the liquid carbon it will melt. I did find if you kept withing the dose limit, i didn't have a problem.
 
flyingfish said:
i have the same diatoms starting to for on my glass, and the hairgrass is starting to go like yours. how do i get rid of it?
As far as I understand it, patience and algae feeders. I think it's something that mainly effects new tanks and that it goes away with time. My guess is shrimps would be the best bet for harvesting it, but that's only a guess.

Bob & Ianho - thanks guys I shall dose with care and stop if the Vallis looks to be ailing.
 
Thanks Alastair. Bit nervous about the plants staying healthy. But time will tell. Really looking forward to getting some fish in.
 
Since the Wisteria and Vallis went in, the tank has generally looked pretty healthy. With the exception of a Diatom bloom. It started slowly, but as with all good mitotic organisms, it displayed a somewhat exponential increase. Still, everything looked relatively healthy otherwise.

The Crypts are finally growing back …

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… the Swords are starting to produce new growth …

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… and even the Hair Grass is coming along. There are definite signs blades growing …

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… and there is obviously some root / runner growth, as I've not planted anything this close to the glass.

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So I'm actually a pretty happy bunny right now.

The Wisteria has stopped floating away and although some of the Vallis is looking a little peaky …

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… there's no melt on the devastating scale that there was after the first round of planting.

I've been concerned the flow I was getting from my Rena xP2 was not what it might be. After some investigation, my suspicion was that the acrylic pipes I'd made may be the main culprets. Their internal diameter is 12mm, whereas the stock pipes are 14mm-15mm (ID). According to George Farmer's research, it seems that should give a flow reduction of about 50% :( . The Nicest Man On The Planet, aka Alastair very kindly donated a Tetratec EX1200 which has improved the flow by about 25% already and I will now be remaking the pipes in 20/16

One of my other mistakes has been with the photoperiod. As I had initially been trying DSM, I had been working with 12hrs of lighting but I didn't think to check up on appropriate photoperiods for wet start. :oops: It seems this is most likely behind my Diatom bloom and the lighting has now been cut to 5hrs. I have also started getting a tiny bit of hair algae ...

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… so I'm hoping reducing the light and introducing the algae crew will nip this in the bud.

With a mix of impatience, optimism and frustration at the Diatoms, after a bit over a week with the new planting and no disasters, I headed for an LFS for some livestock. As mentioned the 4 closest LFSs have had no Otos. The next closest has had some, though I had been told by a UKAPS member that there was an outbreak of Ick. It's the first time I've shopped there and I wasn't too impressed, but I saw no signs of Ick in their tanks, so took a chance with 6 Otos. I know on paper I shouldn't have added any other fauna at the same time, but I also got 6 Amanos from my local MA.


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Both the fish and shrimps seemed to settle in fine and although both spent an hour or so looking a little subdued, they all started tucking into the Diatoms the same day. I wish I'd taken a photo of the shelf covered in Diatoms as the amount that just 6 Amano and 6 Otos have cleared in 24hrs has astounded me. It's not even as if they haven't been eating elsewhere.

On the basis of eating means excreta, this does make me think I really do need to keep on top of water changes at the minute, but that's no bad thing.

I had intended to add some Assassin Snails but, as I hadn't had a problem with “pest snails” and there is a chance of the Assassins breading heavily, I had been put off the idea a little. That said, today I've crushed 2 pest snails. As I hadn't spotted them before the livestock had been added, I can only assume I was sloppy when checking the fish bags. In the past it's always seemed to me that if you can see 2 snails, there are 3 you can't see, so maybe there will be some Assassins getting added soon.

The only other concern I have at the moment is that intermittently both the Otos and Amanos seem to prefer the area of the tank where there is most surface disturbance ie dissolved oxygen. They don't stay there consistently so I'm not overly concerned, but it does make me think the I need to get new pipes sorted reasonably soon.

Which all leaves us with this ...
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Looks like it starting to turn around. :thumbup:

Not sure about amano's but generaly shrimp and oto's dont take a fancy to hair algae unless it's dead. The easy carbo should help along with plenty of manual removal.

The bad leaves on the swords can come off. In fact any bad leaves should be removed. Bad leaves = Ammonia. The damaged leaves wont recover. There will be plenty of good growth ahead. :D

Enjoy your Oto's, they're great little fish.
 
idris said:
I've been concerned the flow I was getting from my Rena xP2 was not what it might be. After some investigation, my suspicion was that the acrylic pipes I'd made may be the main culprets. Their internal diameter is 12mm, whereas the stock pipes are 14mm-15mm (ID).

I will now be remaking the pipes in 26/22.

Why are you going for such a massive step up? As I understand it you dont really what to reduce or increase the ID of tubing/hosing over the manufacturers recommendations as you are likely to stress the motor of the filter (correct me if I'm wrong). I would personally, and have done ;) go for the 20/16 or even better get the tubing with the same ID of your hosing. This way there will be no reductions in flow from the step up/down of the spray bar.

I agree with spyder it looks like you've really turned it around! It's starting to look really nice. Manual removal of the hair algae is a good idea, get it out as soon as u can. People recommend using a tooth brush and twisting it around so the algae gets dragged off. Also agree with spyder about the dead leave on the sword (and anything else), they wont be helping the plant any and will be decomposing in your water column which can cause problems.
 
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