South American fish choice

[Conort2]

Im not disputing anything that you guys have been telling me, but George comments that at Aquarium Gardens they have Hardwater in St Ives, and use nothing but tap water, and no need for RO, yet they have an abundance of tetras in there tanks. This hobby makes my head spin, no wonder I dont sleep lol.

They’ll survive in hard water but they won’t thrive. Since changing to rainwater a lot of my South American species won’t stop spawning, some which are noted to be quite difficult. They seemed happy in tap water but the change in condition is night and day.

Cheers

 

[Paul Kettless]

I live in norwich and our water is liquid chalk. I cut mytap with rainwater by differing amounts for my couple of tanks depending on what is in them but my brother who only lives a couple of houses up the road uses exclusively tap water. So its not scientific but I find my pencilfish live much longer lives than his (which were bred my me so same genetics) and it's has to be down to his harder water as I do all his maintanence and he nicks all my fish food.
I don't keep cardinals but his do well for 2 years or so before they begin to dwindle but I know cardinals can live probably twice that so I think water does play a big part in longevity at least.

Can tetra and south Americans live in hard water, quite a few yes as but it's not necessarily optimal. I think why you get conflicting views is due to a different perspective on forums. This forum has knowledgeable people who understand how we can easily manipulate our water to suit it's inhabitants so push more in that direction, whereas your average shop is just happy if you understand you need a filter and how to do a water change.

Yes that makes sense, and I value peoples opinions and personal experiences. I have made the decision to get an RO unit and I will stick with that, and I am confident that this help all my inhabitants happier in the long run. As you said with your brother, it cannot be coincidental. As you live in Norwich, can I ask where you source your fish from? I have not been to Maidenhead Aquatics for a good few years but the last time I was there I wasn't really impressed. Im happy to travel (well after pandemic) for good quality

 

[Paul Kettless]

They’ll survive in hard water but they won’t thrive. Since changing to rainwater a lot of my South American species won’t stop spawning, some which are noted to be quite difficult. They seemed happy in tap water but the change in condition is night and day.

Cheers

Say no more, speaks volumes doesnt it. Im glad I started this thread, at the beginning I was convinced that I wouldn't be going the RO route. Sound advise and guidance has made the purchase logical, ethical and for me, peace of mind knowing that I am doing all I can to the give my tank a better chance of success and balance.

 

[mort]

As you live in Norwich, can I ask where you source your fish from? I have not been to Maidenhead Aquatics for a good few years but the last time I was there I wasn't really impressed. Im happy to travel (well after pandemic) for good quality

I'm perhaps not the best person to ask as I don't really buy much. We've used taverham aquatics as a family for over 20 years and I'd happily recommend them but don't really go anywhere else and haven't been since 2019. The guy who runs it Allen will happily order anything in if you ask.

I have been to maidenhead but not since 2019 and it was ok but expensive (the garden centre its attached to is pretty extortionate so that might be why) . They had a good selection and the fish looked pretty healthy so I'd at least give them a look if you were passing.

We have scaped nature in norwich which I haven't been to but want to. I don't think they do fish but they do plants very well.

lives round here so may be a better person to advise.

PS sorry about all the typos in my replies lately my stupid tablet loves to think it knows what I really meant to say, so changes everything to gibberish that I only see after I've been quoted.

 

[Siege]

So, this is one of those things that we know about and acknowledge. If you go to any pet store in the east of England, you'll see almost all aquariums using tap water except (in the good ones) maybe a rack for very expensive softwater fish (expensive L numbers, Atlums, some Corys etc).

The fish are on the surface fine in harder water, but they likely will not breed, breeding for me is the benchmark to whether water is fine. Of course, some fish will breed in hard water. In general, if you get the water right the fish will be just fine. I remember reading that cardinals on dissection showed blockages in internal organs when kept in hardwater. Hardwater also increases pH, so that's something to consider. Ultimately, aquarium shops want to sell fish so keeping them in tap water is one barrier down. I suspect if we could test, you'd see a longer life of fish if they're in a similar parameter to water from where they were caught to where the now live.

I like AG's tanks, and dare I say I'm a semi-regular there. I don't think they're spawning in those tanks, but maybe @Siege can say.

using tap water makes the hobby more accessible for most people.

Often see people who use RO water who have more issues than others because they donot do the water changes required due to hassle of getting RO water. Bear in mind making your own is a very slow business that produces lots of waste so not that great for the environment. Due to this RO water can take the fun out of the hobby.

However, Plants will grow better in soft water and the reds will be brighter. Fish will breed more readily -all if RO water is done properly.

I’d go with straight tapwater and full co2. I think the healthier the plants the healthier the fish. I know that when I changed to straight tapwater and full co2 my tanks never looked better and never have a fish disease (fingers crossed). Before I was always playing guess the illness.

Perhaps try out RO water later on if you want to play?

No right or wrong. It’s where you want to go with it. 😃

 

[jaypeecee]

It’s also much easier if you establish plants and algae crew before adding your fish species, this gives you time to sort good (stable) CO2 levels, light times, water (in tank) measurements/(tap) fluctuations, temperature etc (especially if you’re just wanting to go with room ambient temp, how much does this drop overnight)

Hi @alto



JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

I am in no hurry at all this is all in the planning stages, tank not even delivered yet. I would rather get it right at this point rather than later. It seems that an RO is the way forward as I dont want to be restricted.

Hi @Paul Kettless

I suggest we wait until you have had your tank delivered before getting into some of the lower level detail such as test kits. You already have plenty to think about!

JPC

 

[MWood]

I lost all my pencil fish to jumping, even with a slightly reduced water level- both marginatus and beckfords - and I wouldn’t try them again without a lid.

However I can vouch for Emperor tetras as being extremely forgiving as an impressive and attractive S American species. Mine bred and bred in a tank using London tap, and where the heater both got stuck on, and failed, with the tank going down to around 16 for a week while I was away. However, they certainly did better at 24 and when I started using rain water

 

[sparkyweasel]

Ultimately, aquarium shops want to sell fish so keeping them in tap water is one barrier down. I suspect if we could test, you'd see a longer life of fish if they're in a similar parameter to water from where they were caught to where the now live.

And a cynical person might think that it suits the shop if the fish don't live long and need replacing.

 

[Paul Kettless]

Hi @Paul Kettless

I suggest we wait until you have had your tank delivered before getting into some of the lower level detail such as test kits. You already have plenty to think about!

JPC

Thanks JPC it's probably wise

 

[Paul Kettless]

using tap water makes the hobby more accessible for most people.

Often see people who use RO water who have more issues than others because they donot do the water changes required due to hassle of getting RO water. Bear in mind making your own is a very slow business that produces lots of waste so not that great for the environment. Due to this RO water can take the fun out of the hobby.

However, Plants will grow better in soft water and the reds will be brighter. Fish will breed more readily -all if RO water is done properly.

I’d go with straight tapwater and full co2. I think the healthier the plants the healthier the fish. I know that when I changed to straight tapwater and full co2 my tanks never looked better and never have a fish disease (fingers crossed). Before I was always playing guess the illness.

Perhaps try out RO water later on if you want to play?

No right or wrong. It’s where you want to go with it. 😃

Interesting perspective, I have to admit that time is not on my hands with long days in the motor industry, and I do worry that the tank may become a chore rather than an enjoyment.

 

[Paul Kettless]

And a cynical person might think that it suits the shop if the fish don't live long and need replacing.

LFS near-ish of note:

1. Taverham garden centre gets my vote, they've been renovated recently too. I think they've gotten rid of their softwater tanks now, but I could be wrong. They've ordered in everything I've ever asked for, and I have asked for some oddities. They don't buy fish these days though as they did away with quarantine tanks a number of years ago.
2. Highway nursery has fallen from form, but used to specialise in South American fish, and had some beauties. I probabaly wouldn't drive out to it now unless I wanted to get imo the best fish and chips in Norfolk, which is from Porigland fish and chippy.
3. Angel aquatics out in North Walsham can get some fish in, and had an OK range (L numbers, etc)
4. Swallow Aquatics out in East Harling is a must visit, but I'm never impressed with their tanks even if they have one of the largest sumps/water change systems in the country. I think this is why there tanks are heavily over stocked.
5. Thetford aquatics is alright if you're in the area.
6. Amwell aquatics, good selections generally but quite standard fish now. Probably not worth driving to unless you call before to see if they have what you want.
7. Ely aquatics is ok if you're out this way.
8. Fish house aquatics out in Sudbury is a nice shop, and better than most on this list.
9. Maidenhead at Notcutts is not worth bothering with, neither are the maidenheads in Cambridge, good staff in Cambridge branches but tank health is poor.
   
   A couple of good ones that died: Distant waters in Norwich was OK. Good set up but I think the guy running it just couldn't get enough people through the door, such a shame as I loved the shop - if I'd have known he (Mark) was closing it down, I would have offered to get involved =/. Going back eons, the Giant Pet store in 2006ish was the best aquatic shop in east anglia, in my eyes anyway.

Thanks very much for this information, its always good to know peoples opinions on places, quite a few places that I was not aware off. Without this damn pandemic me and the good lady will often take a drive somewhere on days off, so never say never, especially if there are fish and chips involved......

 

[alto]

I have to admit that time is not on my hands with long days in the motor industry, and I do worry that the tank may become a chore rather than an enjoyment.

As this is your first planted tank, I’d suggest taking the simplest route

• tap water: so you can quickly perform water changes whenever needed, and as often as dictated by unusual circumstances, eg, algae outbreak, fish illness etc
• select livestock that will manage in your tap water (you likely can select domestic bred SA stock that will manage fine for some time, then gradually transition tank to an RO/tap mix)
• if going the tap route, deal with a shop that keeps planted tank in this manner (Scaped Nature, Aquarium Gardens obviously come to mind) and follow their recommendations for plant species
• add CO2 as this will definitely assist plants with hard water challenge (as you may guess I don’t agree that CO2 is a challenge for a beginning plant keeper - it makes such a difference in plant health, ease of transition etc - adding CO2 doesn’t mean you must also go high light, high nutrients, rapid plant growth etc ... follow the methodology where nutrients are enriched in the substrate with lean water column dosing)

Of course, if you go the RO route, it may be that you only ever have minimal algae issues, and you immediately (relatively) have the fish and style of tank you want (make sure to have sufficient water stored on hand for a 90% water change as this will mean that you can do a couple 50% water changes without needing to wait on RO production, you’ll also be prepared in case of any slowdowns with the RO system)

Frequent water changes, dealing with algae as soon as it appears (establish a varied algae crew from the start as they will always find algae before it’s obvious to the human eye), starting the tank with sufficient plants (and including some “auxiliary plants” Auxiliary plants - supporting plants for the aquarium - Tropica Aquarium Plants ), 6-8 hour maximum photoperiod (also consider ambient light effects if you’re choosing an evening photoperiod for viewing preferences) etc

I strongly suggest reading every page of Tropica’s website, as there is very good, succinct information there

 

[Conort2]

Is there definitely no way you can squeeze a water butt in anywhere? It’ll make life a lot easier and best of all the water is free. I bought a RO unit back in November and haven’t had to get it out of the box yet thanks to the continuous supply of rain water in winter.

cheers

 

[mort]

Is there definitely no way you can squeeze a water butt in anywhere? It’ll make life a lot easier and best of all the water is free. I bought a RO unit back in November and haven’t had to get it out of the box yet thanks to the continuous supply of rain water in winter.

cheers

I have an ro unit as well but try and use rainwater were possible. It's only really in the summer that the ro has ever come on and then I can divert the waste to the water butt for watering the garden.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It’ll make life a lot easier and best of all the water is free.

I have an ro unit as well but try and use rainwater were possible.

Same for me, rainwater seems a hassle compared to turning the tap on <"but it has numerous advantages">. A lot of <"serious aquarists use it">, it just doesn't get much publicity.

cheers Darrel

 

[Paul Kettless]

As this is your first planted tank, I’d suggest taking the simplest route

• tap water: so you can quickly perform water changes whenever needed, and as often as dictated by unusual circumstances, eg, algae outbreak, fish illness etc
• select livestock that will manage in your tap water (you likely can select domestic bred SA stock that will manage fine for some time, then gradually transition tank to an RO/tap mix)
• if going the tap route, deal with a shop that keeps planted tank in this manner (Scaped Nature, Aquarium Gardens obviously come to mind) and follow their recommendations for plant species
• add CO2 as this will definitely assist plants with hard water challenge (as you may guess I don’t agree that CO2 is a challenge for a beginning plant keeper - it makes such a difference in plant health, ease of transition etc - adding CO2 doesn’t mean you must also go high light, high nutrients, rapid plant growth etc ... follow the methodology where nutrients are enriched in the substrate with lean water column dosing)

Of course, if you go the RO route, it may be that you only ever have minimal algae issues, and you immediately (relatively) have the fish and style of tank you want (make sure to have sufficient water stored on hand for a 90% water change as this will mean that you can do a couple 50% water changes without needing to wait on RO production, you’ll also be prepared in case of any slowdowns with the RO system)

Frequent water changes, dealing with algae as soon as it appears (establish a varied algae crew from the start as they will always find algae before it’s obvious to the human eye), starting the tank with sufficient plants (and including some “auxiliary plants” Auxiliary plants - supporting plants for the aquarium - Tropica Aquarium Plants ), 6-8 hour maximum photoperiod (also consider ambient light effects if you’re choosing an evening photoperiod for viewing preferences) etc

I strongly suggest reading every page of Tropica’s website, as there is very good, succinct information there

You see this is why I love this site, as it gets you thinking outside of the box. At first I didnt want an RO unit, but I could see the benefits in using one. @Siege starts the ball rolling with a good argument for tap, and is then backed up with some very good, honest, and accurate points form @alto. We live in a small(ish) period fishing cottage, so space is minimal to say the least, a place to store large amount of water is just not viable or practical. Siege made a very good point about if we dont have enough water made up, water changes could be delayed, and good maintenance routines effected. Therefore, and thinking about my work and life balance, for me the RO way would present a degree of difficulty. Saying that I think I am still going to invest in one, sooner rather than later and work it in somehow in the future.

In my earlier post about why we advise a newbie to go Low tech, quite a few off you said that some c02 injection is far better than nothing. I get that, and I think with the amount of helpful people on here I feel fairly confident of using it, "he says with a grimace" I very recently bought Advins ONF Flat one 90w light, which is fully adjustable so I am covered there no matter what route I choose.

Thanks for the link to Tropica but I have already been on there and reading plenty regarding the easy plants, maybe a few mediums thrown in just to see how well they fair.

 

[Paul Kettless]

I have an ro unit as well but try and use rainwater were possible. It's only really in the summer that the ro has ever come on and then I can divert the waste to the water butt for watering the garden.

Hi all,


Same for me, rainwater seems a hassle compared to turning the tap on <"but it has numerous advantages">. A lot of <"serious aquarists use it">, it just doesn't get much publicity.

cheers Darrel

OK, so I have been outside in our garden area this morning, and I think by moving a few things around I have found an area where I could put a 100ltr slimline water butt. Maybe this is a daft question but I am assuming that you cut the water with your tap water when doing water changes? I have be honest I didnt even think that using rain water was viable. Once the tank is established, a 50% weekly water change would be around 80 litres or so and would take the whole thing every week if not. Saying that if you are not using the water, do you not have to worry about it becoming stagnant and not aerated?

 

[Paul Kettless]

Is there definitely no way you can squeeze a water butt in anywhere? It’ll make life a lot easier and best of all the water is free. I bought a RO unit back in November and haven’t had to get it out of the box yet thanks to the continuous supply of rain water in winter.

cheers

As above thanks for the suggestion, really appreciate your input.

 

[mort]

The only time my water butts have got stinky is when you get a build up of organic matter like leaves or berries fall in there. You can minimise this by keeping the guttering clean or by using a runoff from the downpipe FloPlast Rainwater Diverter 70mm Black where you can add a bit of sponge to prefilter it first if needed. I also have two water butts connected and collect from the second so any sediment that may have settled in there isn't added to the tank (but it's not really a problem).
To do a weekly wc of 80 liters I think you would need a big storage capacity. I only tend to do water changes every fortnight as this works for me but struggle in summer for enough water.

Whilst I'd love to say rainwater is the way to go, if it's impractical or you can't gather enough to make it really worthwhile, it might be better to just go straight tap. I've never had many problems keeping plants In the 20+ years I've tried here on good old norfolk liquid chalk and I only go to the trouble of softening it because I wanted to breed more species of fish but as mentioned earlier by others that's not necessarily a problem with alot of the fish we keep today.