South American 720L high tech

[ceg4048]

Hi Gavin,
There is no way oxygen is a limiting factor in a planted tank. The plants add more oxygen than can ever be achieved by aeration alone. This is not true at night though. It's more likely that CO2 is an issue. CO2 is much more problematic as the size of the fish increases. The oxygenation rate during the photoperiod can only be improve in this case by having faster growing plants, which generally have faster rates of oxygen production.

Cheers,

 

[Gfish]

Clive

So if you were to recommend a faster growing, good oxygen producing plant for this tank, now you've seen it, what would you suggest? And where would you put it?
I'm all ears when it comes to adding more oxygen. Before I went high tech and I was on the right track with the plants after cutting them right back post algae, I had some other Geophagus that had short fin extensions with damage from nipping etc. I upped the oxygen by setting up a short spraybar that came from the front right and circulated the flow around the tank. I had it set so the holes were half above the water line and it vastly improved oxygenation that resulted with the fish all growing their fin extensions and repairing nipped ones very quickly.
It's something I'm always thinking about so im definitely up for trying new things to improve oxygenation.

I listed my plants a few posts back, maybe increasing the Hygrophyla Corymbosa? That's all I can think of that's a faster grower. But maybe there's better options???

Cheers

Gavin

 

[Tunafish]

great system Gavin,

how are you finding the Geophagus colour wise?, im currently setting up a Geophagus sp. system and am weighing up the options.

cheers

Nicholas

 

[Gfish]

Hi Nicholas,

Thanks very much. Great to hear you're setting up a Geo tank.
Give me some idea of what plans you have in place already.
I went against the norm to set up a high tech planted display and keep a group of cichlids, but I do not regret it. My Pindare have coloured up nicely of late and like many of the Geophagus they just don't colour up until they're large and close to adult. I'll try to post some recent pics up very soon but the Pindare are subtle compared to other Geos. My aff. Altifrons Rio Xingu I had before them were adult when I sold them and their colours were stunning!
What fish do you have or have in mind?

What I've learnt is that there are more plants to try than just java fern and anubias. Having said that, I could happily keep a tank with only anubias plants in it. There's so many to choose from, although some are harder to find than others.

Tell me as much as you can, and I'll give you as much info in return. I look forward to chatting with you on all this as we are few and far between 🙂

Cheers

Gavin

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
How about running an air stone at night? Just have it on a timer. You need really fine bubbles if you do go down this route.
Another option would be a time switched power-head with venturi?
cheers Darrel

 

[Gfish]

Hi Darrel,
I tried the timer with airstone overnight but it raised PH and it meant that when the co2 came on it took longer for the drop checker to reach Green/Yellow so I needed a longer co2 period and used more gas. The other thing which I'd read of other people suffering, was I got a sudden increase in algae. This was the deciding factor, and I stopped using this method.
The Venturi idea is a good one, and maybe one day I'll add more hardware and give this a try. But I'd probably leave it on 24/7 so hopefully it wouldn't be too noisy.

In the meantime, what I've done recently is have the input from my second filter coming in through an open pipe half in, half out of the water. This brings in a visible stream of bubbles which makes me feel better and it doesn't disturb the whole water surface too much. Time will tell on this one but it's a step in the right direction I feel.
Cheers
🙂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I tried the timer with airstone overnight but it raised PH and it meant that when the co2 came on it took longer for the drop checker to reach Green/Yellow.....The Venturi idea is a good one, and maybe one day I'll add more hardware and give this a try. But I'd probably leave it on 24/7 so hopefully it wouldn't be too noisy. In the meantime, what I've done recently is have the input from my second filter coming in through an open pipe half in, half out of the water. This brings in a visible stream of bubbles which makes me feel better and it doesn't disturb the whole water surface too much. Time will tell on this one but it's a step in the right direction I feel.

You can ignore the pH, in my heavily planted, non-CO2, rain water, tanks pH will be below pH7 in the morning before the lights come on (this is because it has little carbonate buffering and the increased CO2 levels will have driven the carbonate / carbonic acid equilibrium (and pH) into the acid range) and well over pH7 in the afternoon when the plants have exhausted the available CO2 and the water is saturated with oxygen. The TDS values will be unchanged at either pH value. It is this equilibrium.

Personally I'd definitely run something to get more O2 in the water, your description makes me think that the fish are probably suffering from sub-lethal CO2 poisoning at night. It hasn't killed them at this level but it will stress them, and any changes in bio-load water flow or filter efficiency may lead to deaths.

cheers Darrel

 

[Gfish]

Hi Darrel
If your suspicion is correct, then what would the fish be doing? Would I expect to see rapid breathing, fish hanging near the surface? Or would all look normal?
Thanks
Gavin

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Would I expect to see rapid breathing, fish hanging near the surface?

Yes for some fish, certainly Loricariids like Hypancistrus will come right to the top, others just become more and more inactive until they roll over and float to the top (Cichlids tend to do this).

cheers Darrel

 

[ceg4048]

So if you were to recommend a faster growing, good oxygen producing plant for this tank, now you've seen it, what would you suggest? And where would you put it?

I listed my plants a few posts back, maybe increasing the Hygrophyla Corymbosa? That's all I can think of that's a faster grower. But maybe there's better options???

Yeah, H. corymbosa or Ludwigia repens are a real speed champs, but you know, swords are pretty fast growers as well and they might be more resistant to attack because they taste kind of nasty. You could stick an E. ozelot or E. barthii in the back somewhere to add a bit of color. Instead of moss, how about tying down some H. zosterifolia to the wood? I would even suggest tying Staurogyne to the wood, although it's a slower grower. Once it fills in though it looks nice and it does have rougher tasting leaves as well.

What you could do with the CO2 is to shut it off much earlier, a few hours before lights off. Insterad of completely off-gassing it with bubbles, which drops the levels too low, just reduce it slowly during the photoperiod. You only need excellent CO2 during the first half of the photoperiod. The second half is not really that important.

Cheers,

 

[Gfish]

Clive
I will look at those suggested plants. It's always nice to have a reason to add more plants 🙂

This is the end of the tank showing where I've mounted the aponogeton. It was a little further over and in a strong flow which it obviously didn't like. When i moved it toward the corner more where it isn't bent over as much, it started growing well again.
I was thinking of adding an echindorus in the front right. I just haven't looked at which one yet.
I'd hope to find a big leaved low plant rather than a tall grower. And hide the basket it's rooted in amongst those boulders. What do you think? The light isn't very strong down there, so that's something to consider when choosing.

My timing of CO2 is unusual. I have it coming on quite soon.

CO2 On 10.40am
Lights On (1 T5 tube) 3pm.Dropchecker green
2nd T5 tube On 4.30pm.Dropchecker yellowy green
CO2 Off 6pm.Dropchecker yellowy green
2nd T5 tube Off 8.30pm.Dropchecker greeny yellow
Lights Off completely 11.45.Dropchecker green/greeny yellow

I've come to this through much trial and error. Watching the dropchecker and learning that not all tanks are the same. With mine having slow growers this lighting and CO2 schedule has worked out well. The bubble count is lower than it used to be too.

Cheers
Gavin

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Gavin,
OK, big leaved low growing sword?

Absolute first choice is Echinodorus Aquartica (Tropica 074F). It's the one right in the middle encircled by the wood. Don't worry about light.

Second choices is E. red rubin (Tropica 074B)

What happens if you were to tun off the gas simultaneously with "2nd T5 tube Off 8.30pm"? You don't really need green/yellowy at that time at all.

Cheers,

 

[Gfish]

The gas goes off way before 8.30pm when the 2nd light goes off. CO2 goes off at 6pm.
This points out how slow the plants I have use up the CO2 I guess.

I'll have a look at those 2 echindorus.
What do you think about E. Schlueteri?

Cheers

 

[ceg4048]

Hi mate,
E. Schlueteri is an OK choice because it does get very large leaves in an EI dosed tank. E. aquartica is much more compact. Also, Schlueteri tends to splay out more and is does not have a particularly pretty color unless you get the "leopard" version, which if you're going to get that, you might as well get the E. ozelot which is much prettier anyway. the new leaves flush pink. I think the ozelot is a cross of the Schlueteri and barthii. It all gets very confusing.

Here is an example of a mature ozelot growing in EI dosed soft water tank.

The aquartica stays about half this height. You can see it here in the middle of the wood.

Cheers,

 

[Gfish]

Clive, Cheers for the pics, they're all nice but that splaying out of big leaves might be the look I'm after. What do you think? It's for the front right of my tank. The area with a mound of boulders. I was thinking of leaving it in it's basket, or transferring to a larger basket then hiding the basket in the middle of the rocks. You think that would be ok for these plants????And look good down there?
I'd not want the Echindorus to grow too high and completely hide that clump of java. Open large leaves splaying out that potentially grow that high wouldn't hide as much as a dense tall plant with touching leaves. That's what I'm thinking anyway.

I keep reading or fertilised substrates strongly recommended for these. But if I do as above, and carry on with CO2 and EI, should it be ok???

Cheers

Gavin 🙂

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Gavin,
Well all the swords splay out to some extent. The only way to control the splaying is to prune.

E. aquartica is the only one that doesn't get too high as you can see in the second photo. You can judge the size compared to the big crypt just to the right.

I generally don't leave the plants in the basket when submerged because the roots have difficulty expanding and making contact with the sediment which does reduce performance.

Swords do not necessarily "need" fertilized substrate, although it certainly doesn't hurt. The so-called "requirement" is a Matrix induced hallucination. This hallucination is built upon yet another myth that states; swords and crypts are "root feeders" - and that myth is based on the fact that swords and crypts have obviously massive root systems.

So someone assumed that because a plant has a lot of roots it must be that the plants can only feed from the roots, which is not a logical assumption. This illusion creates more hysteria than necessary. The plants in the two photos shown above were all in inert clay sediment and were dosed EI. So stop worrying. A big sword will strip your water column of nutrients and CO2 in no time flat, and will soon become an unrepentant hooligan.

The Matrix isn't real.

Cheers,

 

[Gfish]

Clive

I do smile reading of your matrix theory. Yet again the good old Internet has provided me matrix information 🙂
I'd have went ahead without worrying too much on the substrate, but I'm glad I asked. The basket would have been ideal for jamming between rocks in the tank.
As this is down deep at the front of the tank I want to avoid roots being exposed and more to the point, the plant coming loose and rising up. I may leave it in the basket but cut alot of it away half way down and below.
I was thinking at one stage of drilling a chunk of bogwood but plecs like to burrow under bogwood don't they, so I won't bother. I'll stick with the boulders I think.

Do you think I should take a risk and ditch the basket all together? Remember I have digging fish that bare the glass occasionally.

I'm torn between E schlueteri and E Aquartica, but I won't be ordering these online, I'll just look out for them in local shops so I see what I'm getting. No rush.

Cheers

Gavin

 

[Mark Webb]

Great looking tank Gavin. You have some excellent pieces of wood there, where did you source? I could use something like that myself. I am intrigued to see that you can keep algae at bay which such relatively sparse planting, particularly when we read that dense planting is preferable to use up nutrients in order to avoid the algae. Maybe you could pick up on that Clive?
What water change regime do you have?

 

[Gfish]

Hi Mark

Thanks, I'm glad you like it. The wood was found over a period and I searched and advertised to find large pieces I liked. It's funny but my initial ideas of how the wood arrangement would be, changed completely. You have to work with what's available, and in this case I'm very pleased with how its turned out. But it really is tight in a 5ft, it would have fit best in a 6ft.
There's a spindly piece in the front left that protrudes out of the water. That's Hazel and it came from my mates drive. I visited him when he'd just helped a neighbour fell a dead tree and had it all in pieces there. I spotted it, took it home, dumped it in a water filled wheelie bin and occasionally brought it out to pick and scrape the bark away, then after a few months I cleaned it up and dressed it for the tank.
The large long piece of trunk starting in the left corner and coming forward to the right front corner is a piece that was brought over by a bunch of Dutch guys attending a cichlid forum meet in the midlands. They brought a van load like this and it was cheap! It's soft compared to most but has been fine in the tank and many others have used the same stuff and seem happy with it. The huge triangle piece that sits high and ontop to the right, is a massive and tall piece that has masses of anubias and java and other plants attached to it. This came from a guy answering my Wanted ad. He sold me two pieces and the other is in the wheelie bin outside. It's an awesome piece that id actually sell as I can't see me ever using it, but I ain't giving it away!
If you're interested in it, PM me your email and I'll send some pics.

I laughed when I read that you think the tanks sparsely planted 🙂
I think it's heavily planted now. Maybe if you saw it you'd agree, but I think because the substrate is clear it appears to most a fairly sparse tank. Seriously, that huge clump of anubias in the centre is a jungle! It has java fern there too. And behind the java there's some Crypt balansae. It's dense and a great hiding place for ottos and corys.

I will add a little more plants soon hope but not too many more 🙂

Cheers

Gavin

 

[ceg4048]

...The basket would have been ideal for jamming between rocks in the tank.
As this is down deep at the front of the tank I want to avoid roots being exposed and more to the point, the plant coming loose and rising up. I may leave it in the basket but cut alot of it away half way down and below...Do you think I should take a risk and ditch the basket all together? Remember I have digging fish that bare the glass occasionally.

Hi mate, it's not so much the basket, but the rock wool which wraps the roots that serves as an impediment. Just pull the wool off and you'll be fine.

I am intrigued to see that you can keep algae at bay which such relatively sparse planting, particularly when we read that dense planting is preferable to use up nutrients in order to avoid the algae.

Errr.Mark you may have read that from the same place in The Matrix that Gavin was reading about swords needing rich substrate. The level of plant biomass has no relation to the nutrient level in this sense.

The concept regarding the advantage of high plant mass "using up nutrients" so that algae have no access to these nutrients is just another delusion. This originated from the assumption that plants somehow compete with algae for nutrients and so if we add only just enough nutrition for the plants, they will "use it all up" and will therefore starve algae.

But nutrients don't cause algae, therefore excess nutrients don't cause algae. If this were true then eutrophic dosing schemes like EI and PMDD would fail 100% of the time because the nutrient levels are always high, right? Think about it. In these dosing schemes the nutrient level never fall to zero. We ensure that by consistently dosing, therefore nutrients are always available to algae 24 hours per day. Not only that, but algae have permanent access to nutrients if they wanted it. Spores are in the water column, right next to your ppm of this or that. Spores sit on the top of the plants. Nutrients must pass by algae just to get to the plant, so if anything it would be that algae are first to feed and the plants would get the leftover nutrients, not the other way around.

Algae do not care about nutrient levels. Algae only care about the amount of light, the health of the plants, and the chemical precursors in the tank which indicate a failing system. These precursors include waste levels, ammonia transients, poor O2 levels, poor CO2 levels and others that we haven't even discovered yet. The bottom line is that algae "know" when the plants are failing. You should therefore always link algal blooms to poor plant health, not to nutrient levels, which are irrelevant from their perspective.

High plant biomass in a tank is advantageous because more plants interact more vigorously with the sediment (and with the water) and provide oxygen to nitrifying bacteria in the sediment, filter and in the water column. Higher biomass consumes higher quantities of NH4. High biomass produces more food such as carbohydrates on which the bacteria feed thereby stabilizing the tank system more quickly and more comprehensively. You can have just a single plant in the tank with massive nutrient/CO2 levels and this will not necessarily trigger algae. But if the bacterial infrastructure is weak or unhealthy, or if the plant becomes weak or unhealthy, then this triggers chemical transients in the tank which can cause algal blooms. This is not related to the nutrient level.

Cheers,