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Guest
Guest
I think to get a decent exchange of nutrients and a healthy oxidised microzone etc the gravel/sand grain size needs to be at least around 2-3mm or more.
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Costa
Member
G
Guest
Guest
No worries Casta 😉 I've never needed to use it, or similar products, either to detoxify ammonia etc nor for chloramine. If you don't have critters to worry about I wouldn't bother; just let nature take its course.
Costa
Member
Hi all,
Another issue is that it doesn't really make any difference to cycling. "Cycling" isn't an ammonia dependent process in a planted tank, whatever you may read on other forums. The foundations, that the <"traditional linear view of cycling"> were based on, are now known to be totally irrelevant to microbial nitrification in aquariums, even ones without any plants.
The Science bit
The original research was based on the growing requirements of bacteria isolated from sewage works (high pH, high ammonia loading), but you can only grow a tiny proportion of micro-organisms in culture, and the ones we can <"grow in culture aren't the ones found in aquarium filters">.
More recently scientists have looked at nitrification in biofilters using the <"isotopes of nitrogen"> and DNA sequencing of the organisms present, which has shown that their are a huge range of micro-organisms in aquarium filters and substrate and that the most important ones are Ammonia Oxidising Archaea and <"COMAMMOX Nitrospira bacteria that can convert ammonia (NH3) directly into nitrate (NO3)">.
It has also shown that low ammonia levels ("an oligotrophic life style") supports a much larger diversity of nitrifying organisms, and that <"diversity brings stability">.
cheers Darrel
We don't know exactly how "Prime" works, because Seachem won't tell you, but Kordon's "Amquel" has a patent and I would be very surprised if the mode of action wasn't similar. If you go to the "Removing Chloramine From Water: Chemical Reducing Agents" section of <"Chloramine and the .....">, it is that process. Basically "Prime" etc. don't remove any nitrogen, they just shuffle it into forms less toxic than ammonia (NH3).
Another issue is that it doesn't really make any difference to cycling. "Cycling" isn't an ammonia dependent process in a planted tank, whatever you may read on other forums. The foundations, that the <"traditional linear view of cycling"> were based on, are now known to be totally irrelevant to microbial nitrification in aquariums, even ones without any plants.
The Science bit
The original research was based on the growing requirements of bacteria isolated from sewage works (high pH, high ammonia loading), but you can only grow a tiny proportion of micro-organisms in culture, and the ones we can <"grow in culture aren't the ones found in aquarium filters">.
More recently scientists have looked at nitrification in biofilters using the <"isotopes of nitrogen"> and DNA sequencing of the organisms present, which has shown that their are a huge range of micro-organisms in aquarium filters and substrate and that the most important ones are Ammonia Oxidising Archaea and <"COMAMMOX Nitrospira bacteria that can convert ammonia (NH3) directly into nitrate (NO3)">.
It has also shown that low ammonia levels ("an oligotrophic life style") supports a much larger diversity of nitrifying organisms, and that <"diversity brings stability">.
cheers Darrel
G
Guest
Guest
Thanks Darrel, nice science bit as usual 🙂
Matt @ ScapeEasy
Member
Not necessarily... having only 2 species of bacteria will get you started with hardy fish. These products don't always contain the right two though. You need the correct nitrite and ammonia eaters. Details can be found in online forums but I believe Tetra Safe Start is a good one. But you also have to get a product that has been stored correctly which is harder... they need to be reasonably 'fresh' and have not been subjected to extreme temperatures.
G
Guest
Guest
It's the job of companies like Seachem to discover new and interesting ways to part us from our hard earned cash.
It never ceases to amaze me how many products there are on the market that we didn't know we needed until they were invented.
Bacteria surround us, and cover every surface on this planet. For instance, the bacteria Darrel mentions is very common. So there is no need to fork out extra cash.
Bacteria in soil, on the roots of plants etc will do the job just as well, if not better. Especially since, as Darrel also points out, some of the science behind these products isn't totally accurate.
It never ceases to amaze me how many products there are on the market that we didn't know we needed until they were invented.
Bacteria surround us, and cover every surface on this planet. For instance, the bacteria Darrel mentions is very common. So there is no need to fork out extra cash.
Bacteria in soil, on the roots of plants etc will do the job just as well, if not better. Especially since, as Darrel also points out, some of the science behind these products isn't totally accurate.
zozo
Member
In a way yes.. 🙂 Because it's available for free.. The bacteria needed as a starter culture are not absolutely wet land bound. They also live in the normal soil for example in the garden at, on and even in plant roots.. Thus if you dig out some plants from the soil with roots and all, it doesn't need to be something specific, shake off the soil into a bucket and use that mixed into the aqaurium substrate or bag it up in a pantyhose and put it temporarely in the filter. You don't need a lot. Don't forget they aqaurium plants you buy also contain these bacteria at their roots.
It contains likely more bacteria than any available bottle.. Sufficient bacteria for a starter culture.. Provided for free from mother nature..
Than a bit patience does the rest, bacteria are all over the place they will find and populate your tank/filter in time..
It's not that it is a particular bacterial sp. you absolutely need to buy or else never get.. 🙂
Hi all,
I've always suspected than the linear view of cycling was probably incorrect, mainly because fixed nitrogen (nitrogen that isn't N2 gas) is a scarce and valuable product in the natural environment, and evolution is very effective at finding multiple pathways to exploit scarce resources.
I may have a jaundiced view, but look on the companies that sell these products as a bit like payday lenders, people go to them in their hour of need, and then they keep on using the service. There is no money to be made in KISS solutions and telling people that growing plants and time are all you need, add in a soil substrate and rain-water and you have a virtually free recipe for having a successful tank. However if you can keep peoples tanks continually teetering on the brink of disaster you can carry on selling them "pH buffers" etc.
That is a question that we can't really answer, we are into a shades of grey world, it is a similar question to <"do probiotics in yogurt etc work?">. The only way to find out would be to be run a DNA scan looking for COMAMMOX bacterial and Ammonia Oxidising Archaeal (AOA) genes. My suspicion is that they may contain some of these, how useful they would be would depend on the ammonia loading the products were produced under, again my guess would be that the bioreactors that produce these products run on quite high ammonia loadings, which would make them less useful.
I've always suspected than the linear view of cycling was probably incorrect, mainly because fixed nitrogen (nitrogen that isn't N2 gas) is a scarce and valuable product in the natural environment, and evolution is very effective at finding multiple pathways to exploit scarce resources.
With any aquarium product I look at it like buying a fitted kitchen, the salesman tries to sell you all these up-grades etc. but when you look at it objectively you have just paid a £400 for a couple of bits of particle board and some cheap fittings. I know enough about photosynthesis and plant nutrition to know that there are no "special phosphors" in fluorescent tubes and that every NO3- ion is the same as every other NO3- ion in solution, and if any-one tries to tell me different they are wrong.
I may have a jaundiced view, but look on the companies that sell these products as a bit like payday lenders, people go to them in their hour of need, and then they keep on using the service. There is no money to be made in KISS solutions and telling people that growing plants and time are all you need, add in a soil substrate and rain-water and you have a virtually free recipe for having a successful tank. However if you can keep peoples tanks continually teetering on the brink of disaster you can carry on selling them "pH buffers" etc.
Have a look at Dr Tim Hovanec's comments in <"Bacteria revealed">*. He did a lot of the original research on nitrifying bacteria, but has revised his his opinion based on subsequent scientific advances, despite having a <"commercial interest"> in these products. All we can say that the bacteria that were claimed to be in the product might be there, or they might not, but in either case they are entirely irrelevant.
If any-one is interested in the scientific papers they are linked into the <"Bacterial/biological starters"> thread. If I was going to only read one it would be
cheers Darrel
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G
Guest
Guest
I'm not familiar with that product, but if it's basically compost then yes you'll need to cap it otherwise it'll be easily disturbed and you could end up looking at muddy puddle rather than a beautifully planted aquarium.
Jacob Coleman
Member
Wow amazing article thank you 🙂
Sarpijk
Member
- Joined
- 11 Jan 2015
- Messages
- 701
I think this beats the whole purpose of doing a dirted tank. You do dirt in order to avoid paying for a readily commercial product. I am sure you can find a nice size and colour inert substrate.
Having said that , if you choose to do both dirt and Tropica soil you will probably get a profusion of nutrients in the water column that you will have to take care of using fast growing plants along with extra water changes.
Hmm is there anything I can put in the sand/gravel to give the plants an initial boost before their roots make it through to the soil?
Also is this a suitable <<soil retainer>>? What I'm not sure about is "Sturdy extruded mesh made from PP and treated with UV additives for longer life.".
Sarpijk
Member
- Joined
- 11 Jan 2015
- Messages
- 701
Personally I have recently used gardenia soil and sprinkled some loose osmocote balls. I also used some clay balls I had laying around. This combination has worked well for me. This time I skipped the soil retainer because I want my MTS to be able to dive in and churn it.
I have the same question - could anyone assist by giving a link to a soil retainer that would be fish safe? I'm concerned that it may leak chemicals etc. over time...
