• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Seachem Purigen Head Scratcher

Potassium bicarbonate dissolves like this: KHCO3 -> K+ + HCO3-
Potassium carbonate reacts like this: K2CO3 + H2O + CO2 -> 2 K+ + 2 HCO3-
The difference is that it 'scavenges' a CO2 molecule. That's why it's more basic.
 
Potassium bicarbonate dissolves like this: KHCO3 -> K+ + HCO3-
Potassium carbonate reacts like this: K2CO3 + H2O + CO2 -> 2 K+ + 2 HCO3-
The difference is that it 'scavenges' a CO2 molecule. That's why it's more basic.
All of this is making me think it would be really helpful to have not just a guide how to use the excellent IFC calculator, but also a guide to mixing your own - some of the dos and don'ts because, certainly to me, the more I read about this here the more complex it seems to be.
 
All of this is making me think it would be really helpful to have
To me it seems you've chosen the more difficult way. You don't like chemistry, obviously, but you want a list of tips & tricks how to do chemistry without learning it. I know it depends on everyone's personality but to me, it seems better to re-study basic high-school inorganic chemistry and to understand why and how to...
(Disclaimer: I'm a lawyer by profession, not exactly close-related science, I think.)
 
To me it seems you've chosen the more difficult way. You don't like chemistry, obviously, but you want a list of tips & tricks how to do chemistry without learning it. I know it depends on everyone's personality but to me, it seems better to re-study basic high-school inorganic chemistry and to understand why and how to...
(Disclaimer: I'm a lawyer by profession, not exactly close-related science, I think.)
Highly disagree there. Most people have enough going on in their lives without needing to add a part time chemistry education to it. It doesnt really matter if it might have been something that was mentioned in school either, because a lot of us dont remember that stuff. Thats not particularly strange, most teenagers dont find the difference between potassium carbonate and potassium bicarbonate particularly riveting reading at that stage of their life 😁

It should be entirely possible to write a guide that touches on some basics that applies specifically to what we need to know for aquarium use, and forgo the rest.
Which chemicals we use, which ones we dont use (and short on why), if there are more than one salt that can be used for a purpose, a list of those etc.

All of this is making me think it would be really helpful to have not just a guide how to use the excellent IFC calculator, but also a guide to mixing your own - some of the dos and don'ts because, certainly to me, the more I read about this here the more complex it seems to be.
I could try to contribute to such a guide, but I would be thankful if there is a sort of "these are the subjects the guide should cover", and that I could post a draft somewhere to get input from other people and make sure it is correct and an accurate reflection of the knowledge and practices of the forum.

Based on how many "I mixed calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate and now theres a problem" threads we see popping up on a regular basis, having a guide that covers stuff like that really wouldnt go amiss 😊
 
Highly disagree there. Most people have enough going on in their lives without needing to add a part time chemistry education to it.
I'm sorry that you disagree. During my life, I've had several hobbies, several fields of interest. And in each case, interest meant to me that I've been trying to learn everything concerning the matter. Aquarium hobby forced me to (re)learn some chemistry, not because I like chemistry, but because I like this hobby and want to do it right. Similarly, I had to learn some segments of several other sciences.
Yet I've stressed that
I know it depends on everyone's personality
Many people just want to have a nice tank and, typically, are more willing to spend money than to spend some effort learning how it works. Nevertheless, those who enter this forum and seek advice are willing to learn, too. We can't do this hobby without learning. We differ just in degree.

Incidentally, several years ago I've created a sort of handbook listing all chemicals which may be possibly of use in aquarium hobby, with short description of their outlook, behaviour, use, dangers, etc. I published it on Marcel Golias' webpages. Several thousands visitors, but nobody bothered to say "thank you".
 
To me it seems you've chosen the more difficult way. You don't like chemistry, obviously, but you want a list of tips & tricks how to do chemistry without learning it. I know it depends on everyone's personality but to me, it seems better to re-study basic high-school inorganic chemistry and to understand why and how to...
Knowing a lot about chemistry should not, and is not, a prerequisite for being successful with a planted aquarium. If someone got the interest, time and aptitude to study up, thats fine, if not, we should offer our help - I mean, isn't that the whole point of this forum? My scientific background is not in Chemistry - as a matter of fact I forgot most of what I was taught back in the day... Chemistry is just not something I ever touched on professionally. When I joined the forum some 2 1/2 years ago I learned a ton from members such as @dw1305, @X3NiTH and others and got enough of a head start so I could go and study up a bit more when I felt that was necessary.

Too frequently I feel some of us are getting a little bit ahead of ourselves on the chemistry bit, and make things look and sound way too complicated when it's really not the case. Yes, there are definitely complicated topics and corner cases worth making people aware of, but we should try harder to communicate this in a more practical and digestible way. Just throwing out chemical equations will only be helpful for the very few around here - and they already know...

I know @LondonDragon have mention this on occasion to some of us, that we should try harder not to overwhelm beginners and infrequent visitors with esoteric explanations and chemistry and when we do, we should try and put things in reasonable perspective. Case on point: Reading this thread could easily make the average hobbyist think that near zero KH is a necessity to run a successful planted aquarium... We all know that isn't true. Plenty of people are quite successful with a broad selection of plants at higher KH levels... And we all know that not everyone can implement an RO system in their households, collect rain water or is blessed with perfect tap water.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Last edited:
I know @LondonDragon have mention this on occasion to some of us, that we should try harder not to overwhelm beginners and infrequent visitors
I did read the whole thing before your comment and thought "here we go again" lol but I left it up to the thread starter to report it if they were not happy with it, as the starter might want the scientific information, but like you say posts like this focused too much on science and possibly some theories that are not a must in growing plants in an aquarium for the average user, or people that don't care much for the science behind it, then a lot of the information can be seen as contradicting, as some people have their mind set on CO2 vs no CO2, RO vs no RO, EI vs Lean dosing, and so on, and then turns into a contest rather than informational ;)
 
Highly disagree there. Most people have enough going on in their lives without needing to add a part time chemistry education to it

I'm sorry that you disagree. During my life, I've had several hobbies, several fields of interest. And in each case, interest meant to me that I've been trying to learn everything concerning the matter. Aquarium hobby forced me to (re)learn some chemistry, not because I like chemistry, but because I like this hobby and want to do it right

Knowing a lot about chemistry should not, and is not, a prerequisite for being successful with a planted aquarium. If someone got the interest, time and aptitude to study up, thats fine, if not, we should offer our help

but like you say posts like this focused too much on science and possibly some theories that are not a must in growing plants

Here's a thought... its already been mentioned about starting a thread regards chemical salts that shouldn't ideally be mixed in aqueous solutions.
The experts on chemistry can explain why and educate us all, those that are thirsty for knowledge can absorb these nuggets of info, and maybe get a better understanding of chemistry.
We could also include solubility levels for common aquarium salts.
The people that for whatever reason require a simple list of chemicals to avoid mixing can also be served by a thread like this.

I don't have enough chemistry knowledge to start something like this but know there are few members on this board that could do this with one eye closed.

Obviously anybody contributing to an article like this would get a big thank you from me.
 
Hi all,
Here's a thought... its already been mentioned about starting a thread regards chemical salts that shouldn't ideally be mixed in aqueous solutions.
The experts on chemistry can explain why and educate us all, those that are thirsty for knowledge can absorb these nuggets of info, and maybe get a better understanding of chemistry.
@John q there isn't a specific thread, as such, but the <"solubility rules chart"> (below) is linked into <"numerous threads">.
....... What @Hufsa and @Hanuman say, have a look at the <"solubility rules chart">, it highlights where problems (the green and pink squares) are likely to occur.
large_solubility_rules_chart-mk-png-png-png.png


cheers Darrel
 
the <"solubility rules chart"> (below) is linked
To me darrel that chart makes perfect sense, even with my limited knowledge.

However... for a noob, or somebody that was kissing the boys/girls behind the bike sheds rather than learning; it doesn't explain that the solubility of calcium sulfate is around 0.26g/l, nor does it explain that mixing magnesium sulphate with calcium nitrate and water yields magnesium nitrate and calcium sulphate... I think?
 
Well, I'll try to provide simplified guide:
(1) On the side of cations, we can rank them according to their electronegativity: K < Na < Ca < Mg << Mn < Zn < Fe < Cu.
(2) On the side of anions, relative strength of acids is instructive: HNO3 > HCl > H2SO4 >> H3PO4 >> H2CO3.
Now, if you blend salts of above listed cations and anions, cations with lowest electronegativity will pair with strongest acids and push the other cations to the weaker acids. An example:
Blending K2CO3 with MgSO4. Both well-soluble. Potassium will 'occupy' position with sulfate anion and 'push' magnesium towards carbonate anion. As a result, MgCO3 will precipitate (see Darrel's chart above).
(I beg all chemists for pardon.)
 
Hi all,
@dw1305 that chart works in relation to solubility, but doesn’t provide information on the reactions and resulting new compounds.
I can see. Plants can only take up nutrients as ions, what we need is to state that and then talk about solubility and the insoluble compounds that form from those ions.

Edit: @_Maq_ 's comment

Cheers Darrel
 
Well, I'll try to provide simplified guide
😃👍

electronegativity
aaaand you lost me 😬 😅

I really think you nerds (begging your pardon😘) overestimate seriously how much chemistry knowledge people have.

It really needs to be super simple and in plain English for it to be understandable to most people.
And there sure are a lot more of "most people" than there are Maq's and Darrel's 😁

I will try to start working on some kind of general guide for this soon, hopefully it will be acceptable to all after some feedback, despite my relatively DIY chemistry knowledge 💪🙂
 
aaaand you lost me 😬 😅
You can replace the word by anything convenient. I did not invent the word, some wicked chemists did! It is the ranking that matters.
 
Back
Top