Planted tank sump design - need your feedback. :-)

[Zak Rafik]

Search the internet about how to make your own needle wheel pumps from conventional pump impellers and frying pan scrubbers.

I already have the DIY details for making a needle wheel pump from conventional pump impeller ( thanks to Tom Barr) somewhere in my laptop's folder. I'll kiv this project once I have fine tuned my sump configuration and other basic stuff.
Thanks for bring up this topic.

One thing to bare in mid is what happens after (or during) a 50% water change ? Being a planted tank, more especially if using CO2, will the sump fail safe and sump automatically restart after the system has 50% water removed and the 50% water added back ? You don't want to be faffing around clearing air locks & starting syphons every time you change the water...

Yes a valid point indeed.
Ok, this what I have planned. I intend to NOT remove any water from the sump tank BUT to remove 50% water from the main display tank.
During water change process, I will switch off the return pump and close the flow valve on the pipe from the overflow to the sump.
Once the necessary maintenance has been carried out (plant trimming, cleaning glass etc..etc..), to refill with fresh water I intend to to any of the 2 ways below:

1. I refill the display tank directly using my trusty python. Once the water level has reached the preset level in the display tank, I'll open the flow valve from the overflow to the sump and then start the return pump.

OR

2. Have the flow valve from overflow box to sump CLOSED. I start the return pump and I fill the compartment with the return with fresh water. Toward the end, I open the flow valve.

But personally, I feel more comfortable with option 1 as I have more control and less faffing with water level.

Because my overflow is going to be set up using the Herbie Overflow method, I foresee very less chance of losing siphon. Also due to the fact that there is an emergency pipe always on standby for any problem with water level, I'll have more control.

What do think? I'm sure you have seen many types of filtration systems. Please share your thoughts.

I had thought out these problems and that is why I'm dead against using the overflows like the ones shown below.

Cheers.🙂

 

[Zak Rafik]

I use a Jebao DCP6500, really good pump and quiet too. I have had 2 other Jebao pumps a dc1200 and DCS300 all great pumps. The DCP range are the quietest of the Jebao pumps.

Thanks for the feedback. Are they quite when in the sump? I have seen some complains on YouTube about the vibration noise when the pump touches the sump glass floor. Is it true?

Thanks! After a lot of research on sump design and hours drawing up what I wanted I managed to find a company that agreed to make the sump from acrylic to my spec at a decent price.

I read all the juicy details on your thread. Very interesting and learnt a few important pointers from there. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

I can tell you my 40cm stand pipe flows a massive amount or water much more than my 6500lph pump can handle. The valve I have on it is only a quarter open and this flows enough for the pump to handle at 80%. You will need a ball valve on each main stand pipe and emergency, so you can adjust the flow to what you return pump can handle. If you go for a jebao pump which comes with controller it makes it really easy to balance the flow. If you only used 1 stand pipe to floe to the sump I would say you'd only need it open about 35-40% for the 3000lph pump to coupe with, if you use both stand pipes then half that 17.5-20%, only way to really tell is to open them both a small amount switch your pump on and adjust.

Ian_M brought up some interesting points on how I would handle the flow and return pump during water changes. Since you're also using the Herbie Overflow method and using the exact pump I'm will be getting, I think you are more qualified than me to shed some light on the procedure when doing water changes.

Kindly see my reply to Ian_M on what I intend to do. Is it correct?

BTW congratulation on your win against the nasty algae outbreak on your tank. Please do keep that thread updated. I'm following it to learn from your journey.🙂

 

[foxfish]

If you use an auto top up valve in the sump then water changes offer very little problems, as long as you don't remove water faster than the ball valve can top it up, then it will be very painless. Obviously there are times when you need to actually reduce the display tank water level but if no heavy maintenance is required, I just run about 20' of air line into my bathroom sink drain & let it run for a few hours.
You can see and hear my pump running in this video, the camera microphone is right along side the pump. The pump must be well over 20 years old now & never had a service in its life. It even ran continuously for 4 years on a marine system.

 

[DavidW]

vibration noise when the pump touches the sump glass floor. Is it true?

Not sure about glass my sump is acrylic, but the pumps all have rubber feet.

how I would handle the flow and return pump during water changes

To be honest I've never had any issues with water changes. I turn the pump off siphon 30-40% of the water from the main tank, clean the glass, trim the plants etc then pump fresh water back into the tank. When the water starts to flow down the stand pipe I turn the pump back on and adjust the speed to the water flow and gradually increase the pump speed up to optimum level for my tank (80%). I don't turn the ball valves off on the stand pipe, when I designed the sump I calculated how much water would drain from the main tank if the pump would stop and designed the sump to hold the extra water. I have drilled the bottom of my tank for the pipes and fitted a weir in the corner rather than using an overflow box. I can see using an overflow box you may experience the issues Ian_M brought up.

BTW congratulation on your win against the nasty algae outbreak on your tank

Thanks, it took a while to sort out. I ended up using a weekly fert (easy-life profit, ferro, nitro and fosfo) with a 30% water change and turning my CO2 to be constantly on to beat most of the algae apart from BBA, my sword fish take care of most of that now, and since also adding floating plants it all but gone now 🙂

 

[Zak Rafik]

If you use an auto top up valve in the sump then water changes offer very little problems, as long as you don't remove water faster than the ball valve can top it up, then it will be very painless. Obviously there are times when you need to actually reduce the display tank water level but if no heavy maintenance is required, I just run about 20' of air line into my bathroom sink drain & let it run for a few hours.
You can see and hear my pump running in this video, the camera microphone is right along side the pump. The pump must be well over 20 years old now & never had a service in its life. It even ran continuously for 4 years on a marine system.

Thanks for your input. I saw your video and have subbed to your channel.

 

[Costa]

I did have a big problem with maintaining CO2 level until I fitted a lid with a seal (used rubber door draft seal), now my CO2 is perfect and I'm using a lot less than when I didn't have a sealed lid.

David, could you elaborate on how you sealed the lid please? I have a 150L sump to support a 600L main tank, and the sump at the moment I cover with some polystyrene.

 

[DavidW]

David, could you elaborate on how you sealed the lid please

Hi, I bought some P draft seal and suck it to the edge of the lid. Works a treat and enabled me to turn my CO2 BPS down ans still maintain the same CO2 level in the tank.

 

[Costa]

Beautiful, thank you. Great idea!

 

[Zak Rafik]

Just an update.
I thought building my own sump with the necessary plumbing work will be a walk in the park. Boy! was I mistaken.
Getting the parts ( unions, valves and PVC connectors) is quite overwhelming......and add to this, the placement of the baffles (positions) in the sump is still confusing me as I type this.😱

 

[DavidW]

It's best to draw it out on paper first so you can calculate the size of each chamber and what you want to place in that chamber, and plan out the pipework. I've got a box of valves, elbows reducers etc left over from my build due to not planning the pipework out correctly and then changing my mind during the pipework build. I found a couple of companies that sell the parts quite cheaply but postage is quite high so I ended up buying more than I needed just in case.

 

[Zak Rafik]

It's best to draw it out on paper first so you can calculate the size of each chamber and what you want to place in that chamber, and plan out the pipework. I've got a box of valves, elbows reducers etc left over from my build due to not planning the pipework out correctly and then changing my mind during the pipework build. I found a couple of companies that sell the parts quite cheaply but postage is quite high so I ended up buying more than I needed just in case.

Hi DavidW
I do have my sump layout drawn on paper but since running a sump is virgin territory for me. I'm trying to gather as such info and tips before drilling the display tank for the overflow and buying the sump tank and parts. I don't want to silicon glue the baffles and then end up with less flow or worse, overflow the sump when the return pump is switch off.

On the net, 75% of sump designs are for reef tanks and and whatever is left is for monster fish tanks. The requirements for sump capacity, flow direction and number of baffles needed in a sump is quite unique for each type of fish keeping.
I did find a handful of sump design inspirations on plantedtank forum but thanks to @!*&^$%#$# Photobucket, all the sump diagrams/ drawings and photos are gone. Now, I'm surfing YouTube videos for ideas.

Will be posting what I found here very soon, as it may be of use for fellow hobbyist who are in my shoe.

Tae care.

 

[DavidW]

When you can post up your design, there's a few here with sumps who can give you advice on your design.

 

[zozo]

overflow the sump when the return pump is switch off.

This is actualy quite simple to prevent. 🙂 Either way, if pump stops to not overflow the sump or when syphon breaks or blocks not overflow the tank.

Calculate the tanks rest volume from desired water level to top. Example you want the overflow to drain the tank 3 cm bellow the top. That's tanks surface in cm² x 3 cm, lets say this is 30 litre, this means you can't pump more than 30 litre water from the sump to tank in case of a syphon block. Than calculate the sumps dimensions so that it works with holding no more than 30 litres.. Any other design and say the sump holds 60 litre of water, than do not place the pump on the bottom of the sump. Rise the pump on a platform so it can never pump out > 30 litre.

In any case it is best to also install a floater switch and a relai to stop the pump so it will never run dry and burn out.. Rising the pump on a platform is a fail safe, you could only use a floater switch, but if the switch fails (dirt) results in flooding the tank.. A burned out pump is always beter than a flooded living room.

In case of a power out, calculate how much the tank drains to the sump. This also depends on pump capacity and drain capacity, so this will be difficult to pre calculate precisely. And if you make a trickle tower than always make the reservior holding the pump bigger in volume. It shouldn't never filled to the top when installation is running.

Simply if the water level is 1 cm on top of the overflow when all is running. And pump stops it drains this 1cm water level back to the sump. This is Surface cm² x 1 cm = X cm³ volume, so the reservior holding the pump should be oversized with empty space at least 1 x this volume. 🙂

 

[Zak Rafik]

When you can post up your design, there's a few here with sumps who can give you advice on your design.

Sure will. Thanks for your thought.

 

[Zak Rafik]

Hi zozo,
Thanks for your suggestions.

in case of a syphon block.

I can be 99.99% confident that there won't be any syphon break in my case. You see, the overflow box (as shown on my 1st post) has 2 pieces of 1 inch pipes which will be doing full syphon and even in the far fetched chance that the 2 pipes get blocked, I still have one more 1 inch emergency pipe. This is the main reason I choose the Herbie overflow method and also not use a HOB (hand on the back) overflow box.

Yes, as you mentioned there is a change of a blockage (although very slight) if I were to totally neglect the tank or not clear the floating plant trimmings after maintenance work.

Than calculate the sumps dimensions so that it works with holding no more than 30 litres.. Any other design and say the sump holds 60 litre of water, than do not place the pump on the bottom of the sump. Rise the pump on a platform so it can never pump out > 30 litre.

Now! That is one super duper idea you have given there. Thanks bro.
It never occurred to me. As I said, running a sump is virgin territory for me

In any case it is best to also install a floater switch and a relai to stop the pump so it will never run dry and burn out.. Rising the pump on a platform is a fail safe, you could only use a floater switch, but if the switch fails (dirt) results in flooding the tank.. A burned out pump is always beter than a flooded living room.

Another brilliant suggestion from you. I will be using a Jebao DC return pump and the neat thing is that this pump comes with an auto shutdown feature in case the pump detects no water.
But your suggestion on the floater switch is good also as it provide a double protection. My wife will also be assured that I won't damage the living hall with a flooded tank.

Simply if the water level is 1 cm on top of the overflow when all is running. And pump stops it drains this 1cm water level back to the sump. This is Surface cm² x 1 cm = X cm³ volume, so the reservior holding the pump should be oversized with empty space at least 1 x this volume. 🙂

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Zak Rafik]

While reading @DavidW 's post https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/juwel-trigon-350-build.41843/ I read @zozo 's comment on the accumalation of "goo" after fiter media in the sump.
Quote: Note you have your biomedia in the last compartiment, for me it's the first.. There will develop a lot of goo in and especialy bellow the biomedia on the sumps bottom.. T
his is normal and only telling you your sump is doing what it should do.. In this goo will house the anaerobic bacteria.
It looks in your diagram like it is now this goo will be sucket out by the pump back into the tank. You have to prevent that with another barrier of foam.."

Glad I read this important points before getting the sumps. ZoZo has an important point here.
I did notice the same "goo" like thing in my Eheim canister filter just after the BioHome media.
All this while I thought it dirt from the display tank that somehow got through the filter sponge and fine wool filter.

I'm gathering bit and pieces of tips and suggestion from all over and will then commit them to my sump. I may not have the perfect sump but hope for an efficient and easy to maintain sump system, fingers crossed.

Below image from DavidW post.

 

[zozo]

running a sump is virgin territory for me

I guess it was for every hobbyist one time.. When all is setup and running you likely will experience more issues you didn't think off. Sumps partialy work with laws of nature, than you try to find to balance these laws with mechanical forces, like pumps, switches and valves and the help of tubes and hoses. The natural laws involved can be very unpredictable. It took me about 6 months to fine tune my first sump and redesigning some parts itheoreticaly miscalculated. Simple things that after weeks functioning ok all of a sudden changed. Like a little piece of dirt (algae growth) changing the flow balance resulting in noise or resulting in a fluctuating drain speed in relation to the pump capacity. This pumps capacity also isn't constant, tubes get dirty decreasing pumps capacity.

Allong the way, you can incounter little ad hoc issues you have to resolve on the fly.

In my case i use diy overflow syphons and it took me some redesigning parts of the concept to get it running smoothly in a safe constant.

Sumps have one con, that is, it's a complete diy concept and you need to get familiar with your build along the way. Once you know how it all works, you likely will be the only one knowing that, you hear it, you instantly know where to look and what to do, you and your sump are slowly getting one working together.. So going on vacation and asking family or friends to look after the tank a few weeks is a huge risk.. Somebody unfamiliar and unexperienced with the concept will likely run into a wall with resolving sudden issues. Carma is a biatch, nothing extraordanairy ever happens till you leave the house. 🙄

 

[Edvet]

When all is setup and running you likely will experience more issues you didn't think off

I flooded the living room more often then i care to remember, luckily we have tiles

 

[zozo]

I flooded the living room more often then i care to remember, luckily we have tiles

That's something i lukely got covered from the start, with calculating the volumes propperly.. But that resulted in a few burned out pumps before i got it running as should.. 🙄 Some advice, start out with cheap china pumps till it runs as should.

Even with floater switches dry running protection and or return valves etc. You always have water running back to the sump, its from the drain or from the inlet syphoning back. Doesn't need to be much, but it makes the water level in the sump go up, pump starts again pumps out 1 litre and stops, 1 litre syphons back and pump starts again.. And stops and starts and stops and so on. If that happens over night while you are a sleep or away out of the house. Imagine a pump doing that every 30 seconds that is 120 times an hour a day work or night sleep is averagely 8 hours.. No pump is designed for that punishment... You would need to install a relai that stops permanently in case of a malfunction..

 

[DavidW]

I flooded the living room more often then i care to remember

Me too with my first sump. With the second sump I had build I made sure there was enough space to take the overflow water from the tank if there was a power cut.

Below image from DavidW post.

I've got another small compartment same size as the foam compartment where all the brown poop gathers. Makes it really easy to clean.