Plant deficiencies and the Fe Experiment

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It turns out that in a planted aquarium, is it necessary to have an anaerobic zone in the ground?

No, it isn't essential. I use 95% sand, <"but don't vacuum etc">.

Partially why I chose a floating plant for the <"Duckweed Index"> was to take the complexities of what <"happens in the substrate"> out of the equation.

Cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What is standart chelate for Fe? DTPA?

It depends on pH, so basically how <"hard and alkaline your tank water is">.

Fe DTPA and Fe EDDHA are better chelators than FeEDTA in harder water and FeEDTA is better than <"ferrous (Fe++) gluconate">.

I use rainwater and I am fine with FeEDTA, if I used our tap water in the tank (about 18 dKH) I'd use Fe EDDHA and the <"pink tint"> method.

Cheers Darrel

 

[keef321]

What is standart chelate for Fe? DTPA?

Standard Fe chelate is EDTA. Then as the PH increases you move onto DTPA, then higher PH again EDDHA etc.

 

[MiZubov]

Standard Fe chelate is EDTA. Then as the PH increases you move onto DTPA, then higher PH again EDDHA etc.

You wrote that you switched to 50% osmosis water and therefore reduced the dosage, but this led to chlorosis. Have you solved this question somehow?

 

[MiZubov]

0.5dKH is plenty - if you dose plenty of PO4 you might not even need that - I run zero dKH in all my RO tanks, even the CO2 injected ones.

Do you mean the phosphate buffer? Can you tell us more about it?

 

[keef321]

You wrote that you switched to 50% osmosis water and therefore reduced the dosage, but this led to chlorosis. Have you solved this question somehow?

I was happy with my results in my hard water & relatively high PH tank, using the mixture of chelated iron and manganese , together with full EI dosing. I had to keep too plants that’s worked in my hard water.

I wanted to try other plants out and see what it was like growing plants in softer water. So far good, but I have learnt that the PH drop is not linear in nature, unlike GH. For example tap water with GH 10 mixed with 50% RO = GH5. A PH of 8 though, would not go to 7.5. Due to this my PH has not lowered as much as I would have liked, so did experience some suspect issues due to reducing iron. It’s still very early days to have any full conclusions, as my 50% RO tank is only couple of months old.

 

[fredi]

I was happy with my results in my hard water & relatively high PH tank, using the mixture of chelated iron and manganese , together with full EI dosing. I had to keep too plants that’s worked in my hard water.

I wanted to try other plants out and see what it was like growing plants in softer water. So far good, but I have learnt that the PH drop is not linear in nature, unlike GH. For example tap water with GH 10 mixed with 50% RO = GH5. A PH of 8 though, would not go to 7.5. Due to this my PH has not lowered as much as I would have liked, so did experience some suspect issues due to reducing iron. It’s still very early days to have any full conclusions, as my 50% RO tank is only couple of months old.

I went from 50% to 30% before a large (ish) ph drop, due to drop in kh
My tapwater NW Kent sounds similar to yours

 

[keef321]

I went from 50% to 30% before a large (ish) ph drop, due to drop in kh
My tapwater NW Kent sounds similar to yours

Interesting Fredi, do you mean that you eventually went to 80% RO 20% Tap? I have thought about increasing my RO %

 

[fredi]

Interesting Fredi, do you mean that you eventually went to 80% RO 20% Tap? I have thought about increasing my RO %

I am using 30% tapwater
Have been for a year or so, I add Mg, and occasionally Fe
Edited to say
Mine is a fishtank with plants rather than a planted tank

 

[keef321]

I am using 30% tapwater
Have been for a year or so, I add Mg, and occasionally Fe

Would be interested to know how much it brought your PH down by? At that % I would have a nice mix, with KH of around 2.4 and GH 5, so should still be good for my shrimp and fish, and plants 😀

 

[fredi]

Would be interested to know how much it brought your PH down by? At that % I would have a nice mix, with KH of around 2.4 and GH 5, so should still be good for my shrimp and fish, and plants 😀

My Ph is currently around 6.5
My Gh and Kh is similar to your projected values, last time I chucked, pH is constantly monitored, I don’t check other parameters often
But will have a “look”

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

You can mix all three in one solution, but only if you use some form of acid to lower the ph to where it needs to be. White vinegar works quite well.
Dont bother checking the ph of the RO water, its almost pure water so the ph there is not stable and mostly meaningless.
But once you have the salts in (like Fe EDDHA and Fe DTPA) you should be checking the ph and bringing it down to a lower level by adding acid.
Only then could you add some Seachem Iron into this mix.

The ph of the fertilizer only needs to be low if you want to have Seachem Iron in it (in your case), ok?
The chelates are stable from ph 4 up to like 7.5 - 10.
Seachem Iron is a liquid solution of Fe Gluconate.

This is from my notes when I was looking into this for my own mixes:

Fe Gluc pH 3.5 - 4.5 <- Seachem Iron
Fe EDDHA pH 3 - 10
Fe DTPA pH 4.0 – 7.5

As you can see the Gluconate version of Fe doesnt want to be stored in a solution higher than ph 4.5.
This is because it might "let go" of the iron and become ineffective.
But the Fe DTPA doesnt want to go lower than ph 4 for storage.
So thats what gives us the 4 - 4.5 ph target range, that we need to stay in if all three of these are going to be in the same bottle.

Does that make sense?

Hi @Hufsa… what about Fe+Micros all EDTA?? + fE EDDHA? What ph do you recommend for storage?

 

[keef321]

Latest update:

Using 50% RODI 50 % Tap Water mix I did not have any major iron deficiency with both full iron chelate dosing (DTPA, EDDHA & Seachem iron & manganese) & minimal iron chelate dosing (DPTA only). I found to achieve this, coming from a 100% hard water mix to 50% RODI, you need to slowly reduce your iron chelates otherwise your plants will sulk and show deficiencies (in my case old leaves went white), because the plants are adapting to a new life with less iron. I eventually got to the point where I was only dosing DTPA iron and half level EI levels. The plants were healthy, but my frogbit (duckweed index) although healthy, was not as vibrant and healthy as it was with 50% RODI mix and all Iron Chelates, demonstrating some slight deficiency.

I am now going to a 70% RODI 30% mix to see if this provides greater improvement in plant health. I expect this to be the case, as not only will my KH be lowered, but I will finally see a lower PH. It is early days, but things are looking positive, as for the first time, I am able to grow Rotala species without stunting. I think this is due to lower levels of iron dosing (less micros in the water column) and lower KH/PH.

 

[hasan66]

Latest update:

Using 50% RODI 50 % Tap Water mix I did not have any major iron deficiency with both full iron chelate dosing (DTPA, EDDHA & Seachem iron & manganese) & minimal iron chelate dosing (DPTA only). I found to achieve this, coming from a 100% hard water mix to 50% RODI, you need to slowly reduce your iron chelates otherwise your plants will sulk and show deficiencies (in my case old leaves went white), because the plants are adapting to a new life with less iron. I eventually got to the point where I was only dosing DTPA iron and half level EI levels. The plants were healthy, but my frogbit (duckweed index) although healthy, was not as vibrant and healthy as it was with 50% RODI mix and all Iron Chelates, demonstrating some slight deficiency.

I am now going to a 70% RODI 30% mix to see if this provides greater improvement in plant health. I expect this to be the case, as not only will my KH be lowered, but I will finally see a lower PH. It is early days, but things are looking positive, as for the first time, I am able to grow Rotala species without stunting. I think this is due to lower levels of iron dosing (less micros in the water column) and lower KH/PH.

Which chelates are you using now and how many ppm of iron are you dosing?

 

[keef321]

Which chelates are you using now and how many ppm of iron are you dosing?

In addition to whatever iron is in my All-in-one, I am currently adding 0.5ppm DTPA iron per week. I am now looking at reducing this to 0.16ppm DTPA iron, and if that all works well, may eventually try only relying on iron in All-in-one.

 

[Andy Pierce]

In the 'why did I mess with it?' category, I think I was fine for iron and then got happy about it and started supplementing with Fe.EDDHSA. Now I'm noticing an increasing amount of BBA. There is some idea that excess iron can promote BBA which would obviously be a really bad thing. Anyone ever notice any link between excess iron and BBA?

 

[keef321]

In the 'why did I mess with it?' category, I think I was fine for iron and then got happy about it and started supplementing with Fe.EDDHSA. Now I'm noticing an increasing amount of BBA. There is some idea that excess iron can promote BBA which would obviously be a really bad thing. Anyone ever notice any link between excess iron and BBA?

I used to have very bad BBA, but that started before I dosed iron, and I found when I dosed iron heavily & increased ferts overall BBA started reducing. For me I found the biggest way to combat BBA was to reduce organic waste, by thouroughly cleaning the external filter, and multiple cleans of the substrate / carpet, and lots of water changes. You can see my post on this here What exactly causes BBA?

 

[ceg4048]

It turns out that in a planted aquarium, is it necessary to have an anaerobic zone in the ground?

Hello,
Anaerobic zones should be avoided where possible. The idea of a planted tank is to oxygenate both the water and sediment in order to improve the health of plants and fish. Oxygen promotes the rise of the good bacteria and supplements the availability to the fish. Plants send oxygen down to the roots and this oxygen permeates the sediment suppressing the growth of undesirable microorganisms.

Cheers,

 

[ceg4048]

In the 'why did I mess with it?' category, I think I was fine for iron and then got happy about it and started supplementing with Fe.EDDHSA. Now I'm noticing an increasing amount of BBA. There is some idea that excess iron can promote BBA which would obviously be a really bad thing. Anyone ever notice any link between excess iron and BBA?

Sorry but there is zero relationship between Iron and BBA. EI dosed tanks have high Fe without necessarily incurring this penalty.
In fact, studies have shown that Fe can be dosed up to approximately 13ppm before becoming toxic to plants.
I myself, for the EI article dosed up to 3 ppm Fe with no ill effects. Paulo (LondonDragon) once completely miscalculated his formula and dosed 10x the EI suggested amount leading to a 5ppm dosing. This carried on for some time before he realized his miscalculation. So there's plenty of empirical evidence that there is no connection.
BBA is more closely related to poor/unstable CO2 uptake.

Cheers,

 

[Happi]

In the 'why did I mess with it?' category, I think I was fine for iron and then got happy about it and started supplementing with Fe.EDDHSA. Now I'm noticing an increasing amount of BBA. There is some idea that excess iron can promote BBA which would obviously be a really bad thing. Anyone ever notice any link between excess iron and BBA?

Hi Andy, I believe some people have talked about this on this thread as well. to answer your question if there is any link between Iron and BBA ? the answer is Yes.

Excess Iron and Phosphate react with each others and when such event occurs, they both are reduced.

Iron, especially in form of Fe2/Ferrous form when present in high amount along with very high CO2, will trigger heavy BBA outbreaks.

Iron is also more available under acidic conditions, especially while using acidic substrate. Excess Iron, Lots of CO2 and Acidic substrate are some good conditions to grow BBA.