Mysterious issue with multiple plants

[MichaelJ]

I often wonder if folks dosing high levels of Po4 run into Fe deficiency issues because of this?

Is 4ppm weekly enough to block fe uptake in soft water.. I'd say not.

In the past I ran both my soft water tanks (low-tech) at high PO4/P levels for quite a long time and didn't notice any issues as such with the collection of (easy) plants I kept at that time. I have since dialed it way back as with everything else... My so-called lean tank run at 0.08 ppm P (akin to 0.25 ppm of PO4) dosed every 11-12 days. My other tank runs at higher values but also higher levels of Fe… I do think the proportionality (ratio is you will) between P and Fe plays a role rather than solely the absolute levels.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[john dory]

Would it be possible to post a short video?

 

[Zoefish]

Hi all,

I'm pretty sure we can resolve your problem, now that we have some photos and your comments;

We have a lot more to go on. I'm pretty sure that, at least some of your issues are iron (Fe) related.

Have a look at <"Amazon Frogbit"> and linked threads.

The problem with plant growth is that it is an assembly line, and because of that you need all the nutrients to be plant available before you get any plant growth. This is described by the principle of <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">. So more won't be better until the missing nutrient(s) is / are plant avaialble.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel/all,

Thank you so much to everyone for your help!! I got home from work maybe an hour ago and still struggling to digest all the new info I've been provided. However I much prefer this to my previous situation of just trying to google things and not finding much or any usable information.

So far from what I've been able to understand, it does sound as if I may have an issue with iron availability. I did test for iron using a Fluval brand iron test recently. If I'm remembering correctly, it told me I had zero free iron and .5 ppm chelated iron. And chelated iron should be usable for my plants? Would that be a test that I can trust the results of? I did find this product as an option in one of the threads that was linked here, or maybe one of the threads those threads link (very easy to go down a rabbit hole here)... Solufeed Fe 7.0 EDDHA Regular Would this help me, and if so how would I dose it?

As for my frogbit, it seems to be having yellowing of the new leaves and holes developing in the old leaves.

 

[Zoefish]

I was wondering about phosphates as well.

And specific Ca/Mg.

Lots of things were natural responses to what you saw @Zoefish. Don’t think you’ve done anything unnatural.

Some food for thought: using ADA soil, so why not do a complete 180 and use ADA system ideaology. You have Seattle tap, so it’s probably less than 20-30 Ca and maybe less than 5 Mg. Low KH too.

Probably just need minimal N/P and some K and Mg … Nilocg will be better composed than Thrive but may need a bit more K.

If you go the abundance route, you’re going to be chasing water column targets until you get it - and you won’t be able to do that with an all in one and no booster … gonna need salt boosters to fix your minerals.

But you have soft water in your tap so easier to work with that vs add more in.

Are liquid phosphate tests reliable?
I do have a test kit and it tells me I've got about .5 ppm. Hard to tell with the pic but that's how it read in person.

Thanks for saying I haven't done anything unnatural. This is my first high tech tank and there's a bit of a learning curve. However I've been attempting to do research on this problem for months now and have been struggling to find applicable information either online or in books. What I have found tends to be very technical and hard to understand with my current level of knowledge.

I'm gonna be honest and tell you that I didn't understand most of the rest of what you said. What is ADA system ideology? What are salt boosters and what minerals of mine need fixing?

 

[Zoefish]

@Zoefish
your issues are not just Phosphates, its much more complex than that. can you post your water report ?


I Promise we will try to prevent that from happening.

I will try to find one! I attempted previously but was struggling to even determine where my tap water comes from... It is weirdly difficult to find a government provided map that is high enough resolution to even find my house on it.

 

[Zoefish]

Would it be possible to post a short video?

Sure! Are you looking for a video of the entire tank or specific parts or what?

 

[Zoefish]

Okay, I've found a water quality report for all who were asking. I don't really know how to interpret it, but I have determined that my tapwater most likely comes from the Tolt river. That is the rightmost 2 columns on this report: https://www.seattle.gov/documents/Departments/SPU/Services/Water/Reports/Water_Analysis2022-4.pdf
Before I moved to my current place (and started having these issues) I would have been served by the Cedar River. So maybe that change is relevant.

 

[Happi]

I hope that's not the CO2 diffuser.

 

[john dory]

Sure! Are you looking for a video of the entire tank or specific parts or what?

The whole tank,including the surface

 

[Zoefish]

View attachment 200442

I hope that's not the CO2 diffuser.

Nope! That’s an air stone. The co2 diffuser is in the back in front of the filter outlet.

 

[Zoefish]

The whole tank,including the surface

 

[JoshP12]

Can you tell us the calcium and magnesium in your water from your local water report?

It will be listed in ppm.

Your GH is made up of calcium and magnesium.

 

[hypnogogia]

Can you tell us the calcium and magnesium in your water from your local water report?

It will be listed in ppm.

Your GH is made up of calcium and magnesium.

His water report is above. Calcium appears to be between 9300 and 9960 ug/L and magnesium is between 374 and 393 up/L, if I’m reading it correctly.

 

[JoshP12]

His water report is above. Calcium appears to be between 9300 and 9960 ug/L and magnesium is between 374 and 393 up/L, if I’m reading it correctly.

Thank you!

Edit - I misread the Mg so we will need to add more Mg into the water too probably.

So roughly - 9Ca and .3 Mg.
Two options IMO:

1) your Nitrate is at 30ppm - so we need to take our PO4 up from your low amount to at least 6ppm. In conjunction with this, it would be prudent to hike your Ca up to 30 and your Mg up to 10 and plunk potassium in the middle around 18. Give it a couple weeks of consistency and see what happens.

2) go the other way: back to back water change neutralize your water column to zero everything and dose little N and P maybe 2 NO3 and 1 PO4 and then add about 6 potassium.


If you want precision:
Option 2 requires dry salts. Option 1 requires dry salts.

If you don’t want to hassle with those, then I will look at nilocg compisition for you and your local GH booster (tell me what you can get - maybe seachem?) and come up with the two options I think will work.

Both options will require you to arguably do water changes and reset your water column, then front load your targets and then pay attention and focus on co2.

Thanks again @hypnogogia .

OR we keep it simple and do something in between but those fertilizer composition aren’t always “great” for that. APT complete is … so we could fix your current ferts with salts.

You see - you’re using very rich substrate so let the roots get the nutrients for you and keep the column clean (that’s the ada ideology) and when paired with soft water it works wonderfully when enough potassium and micros are in the water in tandem with feeding fish appropriately for N/P - good maintenance and proper co2 with fixed lighting scheme.

I will add that having added the flourish root tabs, your GH will go up like it did since they aren’t very good root tabs and have mostly minerals and low N/P.

May have to ride it out for a bit by dosing just the bottle recommendation + addition PO4.

 

[Zoefish]

Thank you!

Edit - I misread the Mg so we will need to add more Mg into the water too probably.

So roughly - 9Ca and .3 Mg.
Two options IMO:

1) your Nitrate is at 30ppm - so we need to take our PO4 up from your low amount to at least 6ppm. In conjunction with this, it would be prudent to hike your Ca up to 30 and your Mg up to 10 and plunk potassium in the middle around 18. Give it a couple weeks of consistency and see what happens.

2) go the other way: back to back water change neutralize your water column to zero everything and dose little N and P maybe 2 NO3 and 1 PO4 and then add about 6 potassium.


If you want precision:
Option 2 requires dry salts. Option 1 requires dry salts.

If you don’t want to hassle with those, then I will look at nilocg compisition for you and your local GH booster (tell me what you can get - maybe seachem?) and come up with the two options I think will work.

Both options will require you to arguably do water changes and reset your water column, then front load your targets and then pay attention and focus on co2.

Thanks again @hypnogogia .

OR we keep it simple and do something in between but those fertilizer composition aren’t always “great” for that. APT complete is … so we could fix your current ferts with salts.

You see - you’re using very rich substrate so let the roots get the nutrients for you and keep the column clean (that’s the ada ideology) and when paired with soft water it works wonderfully when enough potassium and micros are in the water in tandem with feeding fish appropriately for N/P - good maintenance and proper co2 with fixed lighting scheme.

I will add that having added the flourish root tabs, your GH will go up like it did since they aren’t very good root tabs and have mostly minerals and low N/P.

May have to ride it out for a bit by dosing just the bottle recommendation + addition PO4.

Hi Josh,

Can you explain the reasoning behind this? Or point me to a resource that will explain it?
Also, I am adding Seachem equilibrium to the new water at each water change so there is considerably more Ca and Mg in the tank water than what comes out of the tap. The GH in the tank at last reading was 150 ppm.

 

[MichaelJ]

Okay, I've found a water quality report for all who were asking. I don't really know how to interpret it, but I have determined that my tapwater most likely comes from the Tolt river. That is the rightmost 2 columns on this report: https://www.seattle.gov/documents/Departments/SPU/Services/Water/Reports/Water_Analysis2022-4.pdf
Before I moved to my current place (and started having these issues) I would have been served by the Cedar River. So maybe that change is relevant.

Wow. This is truly the sort of straight tap water many of us would kill for 🙂 Regardless of source (leftmost or rightmost columns), there are absolutely insignificant amounts of pretty much anything... including Nitrates and Phosphorous. dGH ~1.3 ( ~9 ppm of Ca and ~0.3 ppm of Mg). 23-24 ppm of CaCO3.... Only thing that sort of sticks out a little bit is the Silica (reactive?) levels - not sure about the significance of that... probably nothing... and the pH is quite high for such depleted straight tap I would say - all manageable.



Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Also, I am adding Seachem equilibrium to the new water at each water change so there is considerably more Ca and Mg in the tank water than what comes out of the tap.

@Zoefish, Exactly how much water do you change and how many grams of equilibrium do you add?

The GH in the tank at last reading was 150 ppm.

How is this number obtained? Not considering your tap dGH which is ~1.... If your 150ppm reading is truly dGH (Ca and Mg ONLY) it means your Ca is 115 and Mg is 35 ppm (Equilibrium's Ca:Mg ratio is 3.2:1) or 24 dGH from the equilibrium. That is very, very high!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Can you explain the reasoning behind this? Or point me to a resource that will explain it?

Microgram per litre is 10^-9 grams in terms of a litre of water (which weighs 1000 grams), milligram per litre is equivalent to "ppm" 10^-6 grams.

So roughly - 9Ca and .3 Mg.

That is ppm or its equivalent mg / L. You have 9 ppm calcium (Ca) and 1/3 ppm magnesium (Mg).

Combined with the conductivity reading of 55 microS (expressed as the old unit (non-SI) mho, but it is a 1 : 1 conversion), you have something close to RO coming out of your tap. As an example your tap water has less ions in it than the rain-water I collect from my roof in SW England.

How is this number obtained? If your 150ppm reading is truly dGH (Ca and Mg ONLY) it means your Ca is 115 and Mg is 35 ppm (Equilibrium's Ca:Mg ratio is 3.2:1) or 24 dGH from the equilibrium. That is very, very high!

Agreed, if you want to carry on using <"Seachem Equilibrium">, just use a lot less.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

if you want to carry on using <"Seachem Equilibrium">, just use a lot less.

Yes, I didn't catch the full list of the livestock, but I did see Endlers that likes hard water...but they should be fine being slowly transitioned to say 8 GH... which is a 1/3rd of what the water (probably) is now.

EDIT - Just noticed the livestock list in the OP: all the invertebrates will be fine as well at 8 GH (preferably slightly lower), but I think the Endlers sets the lower dGH limit here. The key is to make the transition to lower GH slowly.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[hypnogogia]

How is this number obtained? Not considering your tap dGH which is ~1.... If your 150ppm reading is truly dGH (Ca and Mg ONLY) it means your Ca is 115 and Mg is 35 ppm (Equilibrium's Ca:Mg ratio is 3.2:1) or 24 dGH from the equilibrium. That is very, very high!

That doesn’t make sense. If his measured GH is 150ppm, then that’s equivalent to approx dGH of 8. How did you get to 24?