LFS opinion on cycling & bacteria

[Anomander]

Hello all,

I went to pick up some RCS from my LFS today. They will be the first livestock in my (low tech) tank, which is planted with Salvinia, Java Fern, Java Moss, and Anubias. The 65 litre tank has been planted for about ten weeks, with two sponge filters.

When I told the LFS employee that the RCS were to be the first livestock in my 10 week old planted tank, he raised the concern that the bacteria necessary for dealing with the shrimp waste "would now be dead" as they wouldn't have been fed with animal waste for a while. I think he assumed I'd used some starter bacteria when I first set up the tank.

In effect, according to the LFS employee I had left it too long before adding livestock. He advised me to add some more bacteria if I had it. I politely thanked him for the advice, bought my shrimp, and left.

Am I correct in thinking that his advice, whilst well meaning, was incorrect? It seemed to go against the excellent advice I have received on this forum.

 

[dw1305]

When I told the LFS employee that the RCS were to be the first livestock in my 10 week old planted tank, he raised the concern that the bacteria necessary for dealing with the shrimp waste "would now be dead" as they wouldn't have been fed with animal waste for a while. I think he assumed I'd used some starter bacteria when I first set up the tank.

Only too common unfortunately. If it looks like a good shop you could try entering into a conversation with them.

In effect, according to the LFS employee I had left it too long before adding livestock. He advised me to add some more bacteria if I had it. I politely thanked him for the advice, bought my shrimp, and left.

I think that is also part of the issue, if "cycling" doesn't exist a whole revenue stream is lost. That is a real issue with "plant and wait", nobody makes any money out of it.

Am I correct in thinking that his advice, whilst well meaning, was incorrect? It seemed to go against the excellent advice I have received on this forum.

Yes, totally wrong for a planted tank. If you feel it would help you could take into the LFS any of the scientific papers from the Newton lab., but while you might get a hearing, they may just tell you to p*ss off.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Anomander]

If you feel it would help you could take into the LFS any of the scientific papers from the Newton lab., but while you might get a hearing, they may just tell you to p*ss off.

😄. Let's just say it's an established chain of aquatic shops (my regular independent LFS is currently undergoing a refurb). It makes you wonder at how much incorrect advice new fishkeepers are being exposed to; not only online but from professionals as well.

 

[Spartacus]

Sounds about as much tripe as this I saw at a Pets @ Home.

I have literally been to 6 local fish shops over the weekend. The last one is a tiny independent it’s the only one I spent any money (could have spent more but still waiting for my tank to season)

My local Maidenhead aquatics has more dead than alive fish and when you point it out you get an attitude of would you like me to get the dead fish out?

There is a LFS around a 2 hour drive from me - The staff are knowledgeable. Fish are of good quality and price as is hard scape but the equipment is about double the cost of Horizon etc

I’m going to walk with my feet (wheels) and go there and the local independent 😊

All the best with the tank!

Thanks,

Murray

 

[Anomander]

Sounds about as much tripe as this I saw at a Pets @ Home.

I have literally been to 6 local fish shops over the weekend. The last one is a tiny independent it’s the only one I spent any money (could have spent more but still waiting for my tank to season)

My local Maidenhead aquatics has more dead than alive fish and when you point it out you get an attitude of would you like me to get the dead fish out?

There is a LFS around a 2 hour drive from me - The staff are knowledgeable. Fish are of good quality and price as is hard scape but the equipment is about double the cost of Horizon etc

I’m going to walk with my feet (wheels) and go there and the local independent 😊

All the best with the tank!

Thanks,

Murray

I can't believe the info in the attachment! A whole day - such patience!

 

[ElleDee]

Maybe people with heavily stocked fish-only tanks can't afford to be cavalier, but I think most warnings about one thing or another killing all your tank bacteria are seriously overblown. You can set yourself back especially early on, but bacteria is quite good at surviving and adjusting its population quickly in response to changes in food availability, etc.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Let's just say it's an established chain of aquatic shops

OK, that (unfortunately) makes perfect sense.

my regular independent LFS is currently undergoing a refurb

The last one is a tiny independent it’s the only one I spent any money

Sounds about as much tripe as this I saw at a Pets @ Home. I have literally been to 6 local fish shops over the weekend.

It is pretty shocking.

Realistically it is back to a <"fish-keeper with a shop">, not a "shop-keeper with fish". It also tells you what the issue is in some ways, we aren't the people that are keeping LFS afloat, it is the people who are <"following that sort of advice">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Maybe people with heavily stocked fish-only tanks can't afford to be cavalier

We've talked about this as the <"Mbuna scenario"> - <"When to add fish!">.

There is ample proof that you can maintain a <"large amount of fish"> purely with microbial biofiltration, but I'm not sure it is ever a tenable long term option, because you will always be <"teetering on the brink of disaster">.

...... With efficient mechanical and biological filtration you can keep fish at <"insane stocking rates">, <"even without plants"> and <"we have plants">.

Personally I'm <"keen for people to keep planted tanks">, for them to have the advantages of <"plant microbe bio-filtration">, just because it makes fish-keeping <"a lot easier and a lot more enjoyable"> and surely that is what the chain-stores should want as well?

cheers Darrel

 

[ValleyMykel]

Sounds about as much tripe as this I saw at a Pets @ Home.

I have seen that picture before on a different forum, and I argued that the idea behind the advice itself is not inherently wrong, (since I personally introduce inhabitants the day I setup my aquariums) but the context is extremely lacking.

Its hard to have success with your first aquarium when nobody told that you as a beginner aquarist you can't shovel dry flakes/pellets 3 times a day into the betta tank you just set up (with a spongebob house and finding nemo decorations). I feel learning how to keep rich organics and soluble nutrients from oversaturating the aquarium (basically prevent overfeeding) is much more important than determining the number of days/weeks you should wait before adding inhabitants.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Its hard to have success with your first aquarium when nobody told that you as a beginner aquarist you can't shovel dry flakes/pellets 3 times a day into the betta tank you just set up (with a spongebob house and finding nemo decorations).

That is why we recommend <"plant and wait">, it isn't <"very exciting"> but it has <"very little chance of failure">.

I feel learning how to keep rich organics and soluble nutrients from oversaturating the aquarium (basically prevent overfeeding) is much more important than determining the number of days/weeks you should wait before adding inhabitants.

Point taken again, you could have a tank that was years old, but still not <"mature or stable">.

cheers Darrel

 

[ValleyMykel]

That is why we recommend <"plant and wait">, it isn't <"very exciting"> but it has <"very little chance of failure">.

I remember that video from aquarium coop, was one of the first wakeup calls to my old obsession with asserting strict advice about "cycling" for literally every aquarium problem. I'm embarrassed to admit how backwards my logic was before I got into more natural keeping.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

I feel learning how to keep rich organics and soluble nutrients from oversaturating the aquarium (basically prevent overfeeding) is much more important than determining the number of days/weeks you should wait before adding inhabitants.

That requires determination to learn or at least some sort of patience when preparing to look after an animal including premeditation. A good chunk of people who are starting fish keeping have done it impulsively to some extent and the actual reality is overwhelming.

My local Fishkeeper employs lots of knowledgable and enthusiastic fishkeepers who know their craft. I like being able to access this knowledge and enjoy a discussion but I’ve seen so many customers in there with glazed over eyes as they realise what they’ve gotten into.

It’s a difficult thing to balance. How much information is not enough and how much is too much? From a sales perspective it’s really important to get this right. If you put a 1000 word essay next to the tank rather than a “soundbite” (what’s the written equivalent?) then most people will decide it’s too hard and leave. If you put nothing up then you’re definitely being negligent.

I agree with you, understanding the required inputs and desired outputs for an aquarium is the ideal. Waiting a couple of weeks is better than nothing. Chucking a few fish in a bowl and calling it a day is just clearly bad.

 

[ValleyMykel]

Waiting a couple of weeks is better than nothing. Chucking a few fish in a bowl and calling it a day is just clearly bad.

I hear what you're saying, and do excuse my bluntness, but let's not be too quick to call a method "bad" and obfuscate it just because it's not what you're used to teaching. The real challenge is understanding why different approaches work, especially when they've been successful. Dismissing new methods without really looking into them can actually push potential hobbyists away by creating a gatekeeping mentality.

If someone can successfully keep fish without waiting weeks and are teaching others without much issue, we should be curious about how they're pulling it off and what we can learn from it, rather than just shutting it down based on tradition. If teaching that method fails, maybe it's not the method that's flawed but how it's being taught.

Sure, some beginners will jump into fishkeeping impulsively, but we shouldn't let that skew how we view alternative methods. It's not fair to judge everyone's potential based on a few impatient newcomers. Let's not confuse correlation with causation, and try to have a more open perspective.

 

[Bradders]

Interesting thread!

If someone can successfully keep fish without waiting weeks and are teaching others without much issue, we should be curious about how they're pulling it off and what we can learn from it, rather than just shutting it down based on tradition.

There are aquarists on this forum who introduce fish almost immediately after setting up the tank and seem to have great success. @Gill is one of them, and I track his journals as he has 'gone large and bold' in his aquariums! (Size envy, I know, i know!). And some people wait weeks and also have success. Mother nature is very very flexible and fish-in and fish-less cycling can work.

For me, maturing an aquarium is, to some degree, about giving yourself the least risk of negative outcomes to inhabitants. The method of doing this does not really vex me, but I have personally found that a little patience can produce a better success rate. Even Cory from Aquarium Co-Op acknowledges that when fish are dying for hobby newcomers, he asks, "how long has the aquarium been setup?" first rather than "what are your water parameters?" Aquarium stability and health is more than just an aquarium that has completed its initial 'cycling' period.

 

[FrozenShivers]

I feel that we have to be over cautious when giving advice to newbies and always err on the side of taking things very slow/safe. The average person doesn't seem to do basic research, nor do they seem to overly care about the fish much as they are "just fish", although I would argue that a newbie on these forums is already in a better position as they are seeking help from a good source and putting some effort in. I wait weeks before putting any livestock in as whilst I know that some people have success putting them in very soon after setting up a tank, I fear there could still be stress/harm being done to the livestock - even if it's not enough to cause the fish an early death, that alone will most likely forever keep me waiting before putting livestock in. If you aren't patient then fish keeping is a relatively poor choice as far as hobbies go, in my humble opinion at least.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

I hear what you're saying, and do excuse my bluntness, but let's not be too quick to call a method "bad" and obfuscate it just because it's not what you're used to teaching.

Ah I think you misunderstood me. The British expression “call it a day” just means to do nothing further. So in my context I’m saying that placing a fish in a bowl with no further research, effort or interest is objectively bad.

I agree with you, you can maintain a healthy environment from the outset without waiting but this requires more knowledge and experience than your average fish purchaser is going to put in. It’s safer to err on the side of caution and recommend waiting a period.

 

[Anomander]

This kind of informed & measured debate in an online forum is so rare, and one of the reasons why I like this site so much 🙂

 

[Gill]

Interesting thread!

There are aquarists on this forum who introduce fish almost immediately after setting up the tank and seem to have great success. @Gill is one of them, and I track his journals as he has 'gone large and bold' in his aquariums! (Size envy, I know, i know!). And some people wait weeks and also have success. Mother nature is very very flexible and fish-in and fish-less cycling can work.

For me, maturing an aquarium is, to some degree, about giving yourself the least risk of negative outcomes to inhabitants. The method of doing this does not really vex me, but I have personally found that a little patience can produce a better success rate. Even Cory from Aquarium Co-Op acknowledges that when fish are dying for hobby newcomers, he asks, "how long has the aquarium been setup?" first rather than "what are your water parameters?" Aquarium stability and health is more than just an aquarium that has completed its initial 'cycling' period.

I have seen products come and go from both sides as End Consumer and Retailer.
When these Bacteria Products 1st started appearing in the early 2000's even i was sceptical about them, and the spiel the reps gave about them.
Since then I have tried and tested many of these and found the ones that work the best for me and how I setup tanks.
I do try and Clone/Seed as much as possible when i can, If not I seed Heavily with bacteria balls into all the Filtration and the tank. And it works for me, I continually seed when i do a water change., partly as thats the routine i have gotten into. And that was what was drummed into us at work. I always over filter the tanks aswell.
The Newer Air Driven sponge filters are great, as they have canisters for adding bio media and bacteria balls. So i pop some in them aswell.

DAH has always been bad, and even when they started sending staff on the OATA courses, they made out that they were experts after attending them. - Absolute tripe.
Sadly where i live now, the only options are DAH and MA which are both stupidly overpriced (since i know the formulae they use for pricing livestock). So i travel to Bardills when i can in Notts or stick to online trusted retailers. Bardills still is an Independent with good advice at times, with actual hobbyists working for them.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If someone can successfully keep fish without waiting weeks and are teaching others without much issue, we should be curious about how they're pulling it off and what we can learn from it, rather than just shutting it down

I think we would all be interested. I have a <"quarantine tank"> that doesn't have any permanent residents, and therefore no ammonia source, but it is mature and planted and I have absolutely no compunction in <"adding fish to it">.

The real challenge is understanding why different approaches work, especially when they've been successful.

For me, maturing an aquarium is, to some degree, about giving yourself the least risk of negative outcomes to inhabitants. The method of doing this does not really vex me, but I have personally found that a little patience can produce a better success rate. Even Cory from Aquarium Co-Op acknowledges that when fish are dying for hobby newcomers, he asks, "how long has the aquarium been setup?" first rather than "what are your water parameters?"

That is why I come back to probability all the time, it isn't really about which methods have the possibility of working, it is just which one(s) is / are most likely to work.

Dismissing new methods without really looking into them can actually push potential hobbyists away by creating a gatekeeping mentality.

That is very true, we all have <"faith positions">, but we need to be open to new ideas - <"How do I maintain a cycled filter w/o fish?">. I also think it helps if people are open and transparent about what they <"may have done in the past">.

That willingness to acknowledge that the <"past is a different country"> is one of the reasons I have a lot of time for both Diana Walstad <"Walstad revises"> and Tim Hovanec <"Tim Hovanec's "Nitrification in marine aquarium" article">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

This kind of informed & measured debate in an online forum is so rare

That is the problem with FB etc., if it is a "members only" group you may get informed discussion, but it is hidden away from most punters. If you have an open group? Then you better be pretty thick skinned <"Facebook Planted Tank Groups">.

I've <"had to apologise a few times">, but generally we have managed to remain fairly amicable.

Traditional apologies to @Miss-Pepper too, because it is a bit of a rant, but I've <"distilled my views"> of what I think is important in <"Bedside Aquarium">.

cheers Darrel