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Lean dosing pros and cons

JoshP12

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Suggestion to UKAPS..... Copyright this thread, and perhaps one or two others, and sell to some business school. It is absolute gold dust for a case study on innovation 😝

Seriously, with all caveats one could make, it is a lovely discussion and I admire the friends who continue to push it forward.

加油 !!! (Keep Going, don't give up)

If we could agree on anything, we could probably also publish in the literature …
 

Easternlethal

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Has anyone found that anaerobic conditions affect plants and hence the amount of dosing needed too?

We were also recently having some interesting conversations over at TPT about that until that got shut down by the moderator for 'misleading newbies'

I have been thinking of late that the interaction between substrate and water might explain some of the variations we have seen across what certain plants need
 
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JoshP12

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Has anyone found that anaerobic conditions affect plants and hence the amount of dosing needed too?
Hmm … my gut says It would have to. Assuming anaerobic conditions in substrate … means something will change in bacterial assembly. And necessarily any root stuff … but I think that’s the crux.

If there is a root, there should be no anaerobic conditions. A healthy root should oxygenate the substrate … fueling favourable bacterial symbiosis for nutrient acquisition and mobility.

If the root isn’t oxygenating … turn up your lights and probably your co2 (as it is the likely culprit for jamming the system) … this assumes you’ve already leaned out N and P in the column and are feeding fish well to produce good urea and ammonia …

If you have anaerobic pockets and no roots, the whole thing is probably moot … I mean it’s just a pocket of bacteria? Probably will have some pseudo allelopathic or electromagnetic effect but i bet not anything we could change with dosing regime … maybe plant choice like putting crypts instead of ludwigia … or repens instead of riccia as example.
I have been thinking of late that the interaction between substrate and water might explain some of the variations we have seen across what certain plants need
I’d agree — but it will also depend on CEC, decay, oxygen, age, surrounding roots, plant choice, water flow, light availability … affecting biodiversity …

Certainly a connection - several nodes along the way.
 

GreggZ

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When to intervene, how to intervene, how to cut, how much root space it prefers, whether it can survive longer periods without its preferences attended to (water column nitrate restriction), which nutrient channels to force the plant to use, speed of uptake (K), how much light relative to available areas in the system (where to plant), how close to the source of co2 it prefers to be, how much co2 fluctuation it can tolerate, when to abandon root structures and when not to (timing).
Therein lies one of the biggest differences between success and failure. Horticulture and a holistic approach. I've had discussions about this recently. Of all the information available out there this is where it is lacking. Very difficult for someone to learn other than trial and error.

So many focus on nutrient tunnel vision when it's everything else they should be concentrating on.

Has anyone found that anaerobic conditions affect plants and hence the amount of dosing needed too?

We were also recently having some interesting conversations over at TPT about that until that got shut down by the moderator for 'misleading newbies'

I have been thinking of late that the interaction between substrate and water might explain some of the variations we have seen across what certain plants need
Another TPT'er! I believe this to be true. Substrate plays a bigger role long term than most think. Earlier this year I went through a period where the tank was just not right. To make a long story short I drained the tank and thoroughly cleaned the old substrate. The different was remarkable.

Another holistic not fertilizer based solution to an issue. Not as sexy to talk about as ferts, but can make a huge difference.
 

JoshP12

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Another holistic not fertilizer based solution to an issue. Not as sexy to talk about as ferts, but can make a huge difference.
You mean the base that houses all of the microbiology and thousands of ppm of nutrition matters?! where nature has a separate physiological thing (the root) solely developed to selectively pull nutrients from is not sexy?!

I’ve been on this thread too long … I’ve become cheeky. I left for 40 pages 😂.

Hallelujah Greggz.

Christel’s book talks about substrate extensively and how the root is built for this job. It also has analysis of substrate from all of the biotopes - the tables are endless .

I hate to say but if you look through journals for over 1 year with people who don’t change the substrate, you can see the plants “change” from stunning to less stunning to really not as stunning as they were … to … time to rescape or root tab … but root tabs only go so far .. eventually you need to get those organics and that pH back to where it needs to be for optimization.

AND then by that point the substrate is so choked by roots, you have to lift the whole thing out and rinse and repeat … or call it the humic layer and pile another bag of soil on top and great as start up …
 
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GreggZ

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You mean the base that houses all of the microbiology and thousands of ppm of nutrition matters?! where nature has a separate physiological thing (the root) solely developed to selectively pull nutrients from is not sexy?!

I’ve been on this thread too long … I’ve become cheeky. I left for 40 pages 😂.

Hallelujah Greggz.

Christel’s book talks about substrate extensively and how the root is built for this job. It also has analysis of substrate from all of the biotopes - the tables are endless .

I hate to say but if you look through journals for over 1 year with people who don’t change the substrate, you can see the plants “change” from stunning to less stunning to really not as stunning as they were … to … time to rescape or root tab … but root tabs only go so far .. eventually you need to get those organics and that pH back to where it needs to be for optimization.
Yes in my opinion it has much to do with reduced O2 in the substrate for the reduced or anoxic bacteria. I know others who I very much respect who have seen the same thing. I wrote about this real time when I went through this in my journal, but sadly it's gone until I repost it somewhere.

As we have discussed nutrient dosing is not the cause of and the solution to all planted tank problems. Much more to it than that. If that's all someone concentrates on then they have likely have never kept a really successful tank for any period of time.
 

Easternlethal

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If the root isn’t oxygenating … turn up your lights and probably your co2 (as it is the likely culprit for jamming the system) … this assumes you’ve already leaned out N and P in the column and are feeding fish well to produce good urea and ammonia …

If you have anaerobic pockets and no roots, the whole thing is probably moot … I mean it’s just a pocket of bacteria? Probably will have some pseudo allelopathic or electromagnetic effect but i bet not anything we could change with dosing regime … maybe plant choice like putting crypts instead of ludwigia … or repens instead of riccia as example.
In my latest tank I experimented with deep substrate at least 4 inches deliberately to create anaerobic conditions and lightly planted with much of the surface uncovered. Near the glass where I do have plants the roots are deep and white but I cannot believe that this action alone would be enough to oxygenate much. dosing is very low. we know at least about bacteria and redox but I bet there is more to it than that. Can you compensate with ferts? yes of course. but where's the fun in that
Another TPT'er!
Ex TPT'er. I will no longer participate in a forum which censors people's views and allows only comments agreeing with the moderator whilst advertising itself as a public members forum.
 

GreggZ

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Ex TPT'er. I will no longer participate in a forum which censors people's views and allows only comments agreeing with the moderator whilst advertising itself as a public members forum.
Well I have to say you summed it pretty well and I completely agree. It was not just me, but was happening over and over again.
 

erwin123

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In my latest tank I experimented with deep substrate at least 4 inches deliberately to create anaerobic conditions and lightly planted with much of the surface uncovered. Near the glass where I do have plants the roots are deep and white but I cannot believe that this action alone would be enough to oxygenate much. dosing is very low. we know at least about bacteria and redox but I bet there is more to it than that. Can you compensate with ferts? yes of course. but where's the fun in that


dsc00871-cinereum-jpg.178441

My tank substrate is 4.7 inches - not deliberately but the result of an accumulating of 10 years worth of substrate. 😅 How does one check whether conditions at the bottom are anaerobic? I disturb the top half of the substrate weekly when I insert osmocote (about 2 inches into the substrate)...
 

Hanuman

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My tank substrate is 4.7 inches - not deliberately but the result of an accumulating of 10 years worth of substrate. 😅 How does one check whether conditions at the bottom are anaerobic? I disturb the top half of the substrate weekly when I insert osmocote (about 2 inches into the substrate)...
Well if you give it enough time and don't disturb the substrate it will become anaerobic as oxygen is unable to access the lower parts due to compaction. You can then actually see black patches appear when that happens.
 
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Easternlethal

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My tank substrate is 4.7 inches - not deliberately but the result of an accumulating of 10 years worth of substrate. 😅 How does one check whether conditions at the bottom are anaerobic? I disturb the top half of the substrate weekly when I insert osmocote (about 2 inches into the substrate)...
seeing pockets of gas also provides a good visual indication. Do you find plants grow better in your tank after 10 years? That's harder to measure but somehow seems to be the case (my personal observation)
 

Hanuman

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My approach is similar to tropica or Marchner as already mentioned before. Weekly target of:
N 3 (containing 50-75% urea/nh4 components)
P 0.3
K 2-3
Fe 0.1
Traces similar to tropica or somewhere between tropica and tenso cocktail, mainly maintaining Fe:Mn ratio at 2:1

Gh 2-3, kh 0-1 is sufficient, adding higher GH 5 or so with 0-1 kh give you better option of adding more Fe and Micros. Higher GH also create an mechanism that protect plants from being harmed in case of overdosing of micros.

Adding more K 5-10 under higher GH will also work fine, it might not be needed in such quantities. Refer to tropica specialised or Marchner for reference.
Ok so everyone, I have summed up in general terms the above lean recipe numbers in the IFC calculator and compared it to some other well known and established fert regimes:
1649475938937.png

1649507480794.png

The compound selection is not optimized and you can see we are slightly above target for K but truth is, it's peanuts. It would be a matter of tweaking a few of the compounds if one wants to reach 100% of those targets. Calcium and KH are not officially part of the ferts/recommendation of Tropica/APT but I know for a fact that Dennis is rather flexible on the Ca and Mg range (Ca = 10 to 40 ppm and Mg = 2 to 10 ppm).

All in all this looks like a hybrid between Tropica, APT, EI low/mid dosing.

Have a good weekend and remember, keep your sleeves wet.
 
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Easternlethal

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One thing I noticed is Ca seems quite high. Do your syns like them? I find they don't even like sharing a tank with seryu as they are so sensitive to it. But I'm not a syn expert

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

Hanuman

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One thing I noticed is Ca seems quite high. Do your syns like them? I find they don't even like sharing a tank with seryu as they are so sensitive to it. But I'm not a syn expert
taxi-driver-you-talking-to-me.gif

If that's the case then my Ca is actually higher than that. I'm at 20ppm. My Syngonanthus macrocaulon are doing just fine until they reach a certain height and then they start melting. I think that's totally unrelated to Ca though. Other people are experiencing the same thing some no and I have yet to pin point the cause of this melting. And it's not KH either as my tank is at kh =0

Syns are better in soft water. I know that Syngonanthus uaupes for instance will not like it if KH starts going up. They are very sensitive, more so than Syngonanthus macrocaulon or other Syngonanthus. Seryu leaches carbonate in the water so yes, seryu is not welcomed in a tank that has Syngonanthus. There is a guy over at TPT that specialises in Syns. His name is Dennis Singh over there.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I know others who I very much respect who have seen the same thing. I wrote about this real time when I went through this in my journal, but sadly it's gone until I repost it somewhere.
There is quite a lot of scientific literature on the interactions within <"the rhizosphere">. <Image "from*">.

1-s2.0-S0038071719301452-fx1_lrg.jpg


Unsurprisingly there are a lot on <"wet paddy" Rice (Oryza sativa)">, unfortunately I don't have many references for this (and it takes a long time to sort through the papers because there are literally thousands of them published every year), but I have quite a few for <"Constructed wetlands">. This is <"from"**>

1-s2.0-S2452219818301113-gr1.jpg


......... Paddy-rice rhizosphere is a unique habitat characterized by redox heterogeneity that is generated from radial O2 loss from roots and intensive water management, which allows the differentiation of microbial niches in the narrow rhizosphere and leads to strong couplings of functional processes.
This review summarizes the biogeochemical processes of key elements (C, N, P, and Fe) in the rice rhizosphere and their coupling mechanisms. We emphasize the redox gradient in rice rhizosphere and the role of microorganisms in element cycling under altering redox conditions. We argue that C turnover and nutrient (N and P) availability are closely linked to each other, during which Fe reduction and oxidation play important roles.
........

* Yakov Kuzyakov, Bahar S. Razavi, (2019) "Rhizosphere size and shape: Temporal dynamics and spatial stationarity" Soil Biology and Biochemistry, 135, pp 343-360
** Xiaomeng Wei, Zhenke Zhu, Liang Wei, Jinshui Wu, Tida Ge, (2019) "Biogeochemical cycles of key elements in the paddy-rice rhizosphere: Microbial mechanisms and coupling processes,"
Rhizosphere, 10,


cheers Darrel
 
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