Lean dosing pros and cons

[erwin123]

thanks, I'll keep an eye out for black patches/ pockets of gas.

 

[Hanuman]

My approach is similar to tropica or Marchner as already mentioned before. Weekly target of:
N 3 (containing 50-75% urea/nh4 components)
P 0.3
K 2-3
Fe 0.1
Traces similar to tropica or somewhere between tropica and tenso cocktail, mainly maintaining Fe:Mn ratio at 2:1

Gh 2-3, kh 0-1 is sufficient, adding higher GH 5 or so with 0-1 kh give you better option of adding more Fe and Micros. Higher GH also create an mechanism that protect plants from being harmed in case of overdosing of micros.

Adding more K 5-10 under higher GH will also work fine, it might not be needed in such quantities. Refer to tropica specialised or Marchner for reference.

Ok so everyone, I have summed up in general terms the above lean recipe numbers in the IFC calculator and compared it to some other well known and established fert regimes:


The compound selection is not optimized and you can see we are slightly above target for K but truth is, it's peanuts. It would be a matter of tweaking a few of the compounds if one wants to reach 100% of those targets. Calcium and KH are not officially part of the ferts/recommendation of Tropica/APT but I know for a fact that Dennis is rather flexible on the Ca and Mg range (Ca = 10 to 40 ppm and Mg = 2 to 10 ppm).

All in all this looks like a hybrid between Tropica, APT, EI low/mid dosing.

Have a good weekend and remember, keep your sleeves wet.

 

[Easternlethal]

One thing I noticed is Ca seems quite high. Do your syns like them? I find they don't even like sharing a tank with seryu as they are so sensitive to it. But I'm not a syn expert

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

 

[Hanuman]

One thing I noticed is Ca seems quite high. Do your syns like them? I find they don't even like sharing a tank with seryu as they are so sensitive to it. But I'm not a syn expert

If that's the case then my Ca is actually higher than that. I'm at 20ppm. My Syngonanthus macrocaulon are doing just fine until they reach a certain height and then they start melting. I think that's totally unrelated to Ca though. Other people are experiencing the same thing some no and I have yet to pin point the cause of this melting. And it's not KH either as my tank is at kh =0

Syns are better in soft water. I know that Syngonanthus uaupes for instance will not like it if KH starts going up. They are very sensitive, more so than Syngonanthus macrocaulon or other Syngonanthus. Seryu leaches carbonate in the water so yes, seryu is not welcomed in a tank that has Syngonanthus. There is a guy over at TPT that specialises in Syns. His name is Dennis Singh over there.

 

[Easternlethal]

Yea I know dennis - have followed him for ages. But if I go over to tpt and start asking about lean dosing plants - especially syns somewhatshocked will burst a blood vessel

Am going to try your regime..

 

[Hanuman]

Not sure which regime you are referring to but my regime is in my journal (see my signature) which is very far from the one above. The one I posted above is the one made up by the member Happi.

 

[JoshP12]

Can we sticky this beast?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I know others who I very much respect who have seen the same thing. I wrote about this real time when I went through this in my journal, but sadly it's gone until I repost it somewhere.

There is quite a lot of scientific literature on the interactions within <"the rhizosphere">. <Image "from*">.



Unsurprisingly there are a lot on <"wet paddy" Rice (Oryza sativa)">, unfortunately I don't have many references for this (and it takes a long time to sort through the papers because there are literally thousands of them published every year), but I have quite a few for <"Constructed wetlands">. This is <"from"**>

......... Paddy-rice rhizosphere is a unique habitat characterized by redox heterogeneity that is generated from radial O2 loss from roots and intensive water management, which allows the differentiation of microbial niches in the narrow rhizosphere and leads to strong couplings of functional processes.
This review summarizes the biogeochemical processes of key elements (C, N, P, and Fe) in the rice rhizosphere and their coupling mechanisms. We emphasize the redox gradient in rice rhizosphere and the role of microorganisms in element cycling under altering redox conditions. We argue that C turnover and nutrient (N and P) availability are closely linked to each other, during which Fe reduction and oxidation play important roles.........

* Yakov Kuzyakov, Bahar S. Razavi, (2019) "Rhizosphere size and shape: Temporal dynamics and spatial stationarity" Soil Biology and Biochemistry, 135, pp 343-360
** Xiaomeng Wei, Zhenke Zhu, Liang Wei, Jinshui Wu, Tida Ge, (2019) "Biogeochemical cycles of key elements in the paddy-rice rhizosphere: Microbial mechanisms and coupling processes,"
Rhizosphere, 10,

cheers Darrel

 

[Karmicnull]

For those of you wondering whether you can keep your Urea in solution, <This paper> measures Urea's degradation rate in Ph 6-8 solution as approximately 3x10E-6/h depending on temperature and concentration. So by my bad maths that means you're good for several months.

 

[John q]

For those of you wondering whether you can keep your Urea in solution,

Brilliant, always good to put some scientific meat on the bones. 👍

 

[aquanoobie]

For those of you wondering whether you can keep your Urea in solution, <This paper> measures Urea's degradation rate in Ph 6-8 solution as approximately 3x10E-6/h depending on temperature and concentration. So by my bad maths that means you're good for several months.

Hi all
Don't know what this rate constant is about but this scientific notation says coefficient 3, base 10 and exponent -6. Exponent is minus six not plus six.

3x10E-6 = 0.000 003 hour = 0.00018 minute = 0.0108 of a second

How do you see it?

 

[Hufsa]

For those of you wondering whether you can keep your Urea in solution, <This paper> measures Urea's degradation rate in Ph 6-8 solution as approximately 3x10E-6/h depending on temperature and concentration. So by my bad maths that means you're good for several months.

Hi all
Don't know what this rate constant is about but this scientific notation says coefficient 3, base 10 and exponent -6. Exponent is minus six not plus six.

3x10E-6 = 0.000 003 hour = 0.00018 minute = 0.0108 of a second

How do you see it?

It would be great if someone fluent in science could do a bit of a "for dummies" take-away of this paper for the rest of us.
I took a look at it and it is highly relevant and interesting to me, if only I knew what it said 😅

 

[Karmicnull]

Hi all
Don't know what this rate constant is about but this scientific notation says coefficient 3, base 10 and exponent -6. Exponent is minus six not plus six.

3x10E-6 = 0.000 003 hour = 0.00018 minute = 0.0108 of a second

How do you see it?

The way I read the paper it was degrading by 3 times ten to the -6 per hour. Ie after one hour 99.9997% of the Urea is still in solution. But I may have misunderstood.

 

[aquanoobie]

The way I read the paper it was degrading by 3 times ten to the -6 per hour. Ie after one hour 99.9997% of the Urea is still in solution. But I may have misunderstood.

It is explained here, Rate equation - Wikipedia
but it is above my pay grade. I hope somebody can clarify the results of the research paper. Great find BTW.

 

[Alexv95]

Thank you all for this great thread, I've been wanting to participate for a while but couldn't catch up on my reading 🙂.
I wanted to discuss several points with you, the first of which concerns the amazing @Sudipta setup. I would like to quote a thread from MichaelJ (from another topic) which summarises the key elements :

Hi @GreggZ,

I am trying to see if I can sum some of this up for my understanding. This is my key takeaways from the @Sudipta setup:

• No CO2 injection
• RO-DI water Remineralized to 0-1 KH and about 6 GH,
• pH approx. 5.75.
• low 70'ties temperature (I suppose this could be 73F ?)
• Very low water column nutrients <5 ppm nitrate, phosphate <1 ppm.
• Rich ADA Amazonia approx. 3 inch. deep
• Ammonia containing root tabs ever 1-2 months. (no word on specific product or amount/sq area)
• Nilocg ThriveS ("very small amounts of N and P, but decent K, Fe etc.") - (no exact info on dosing schedule, but can be deduced from the <5 ppm of nitrate I suppose)
• Light: Chihiros wrgb2 120-150+ PAR at the substrate level!
• Weekly 40% WC with gentle substrate cleaning
• No/infrequent uprooting
• Somewhat oversized filtration (HOB) (supposedly to provide adequate flow of co2/nutrient distribution.)

I hope I am representing the conditions correctly, but please let me know otherwise. That doesn't really sound too terribly hard to me. What's your thoughts on this @GreggZ ?

Do you know which root tabs he is using btw.?

Cheers,
Michael

With a similar configuration, I had found a few months ago the youtube channel of Yulia aquascape : https://www.youtube.com/c/YuliaAquascape





After reading the comments on his channel and watching the videos, here are the key points (I'm summarising) :

• No CO2 injection :

The author's assumptions : source of CO2 1. From fish inhalation 2. When the lights are off (Dark) the plants emit CO2 3. Skimmers also suck up CO2 elements from the outside air 4. When changing water (Water Change), new water contains CO2 (pearling plants for 2-3 days)?

• KH and GH : unfortunately unknown here, Yulia indicates that he uses well water, from the ground, rich in minerals but does not know the parameters
• pH : also unknown
• temperature : big difference here, he mentionned a water temperature of 25-30 °C
• Very low water column nutrients : same assumption here, he uses a liquid fertiliser which seems to be lean and doses once a week.
• Rich dirt DIY substrate and gravel here
• No mention of root tabs
• Merk Bio KCL fertilizer - (content?)
• No PAR data but 1. LED SAKKAI Pro 26W (Blue & White) 2. PHILIP LED 8W x 2Pcs (Warm) 3. DAY 47 Philip LED up to 12W x 2Pcs for a 60cm x 30cm x 40cm. So approx 1W LED/L. Even with a low PAR/W efficiency, I think strong lighting can be expected with such values. Given the density of the plants and colours also.
• 100% WC ! 3-4 days, sometimes 5 days & 7 days (pearling plants for 2-3 days)
• No/infrequent uprooting : same here
• No filtration !

So I see 3 big differences with Sudipta's tank: no filter here, relatively high temperatures and big water changes (for CO2 inputs). The plants are dense, the biomass should be high.
What do you think? I wanted to discuss other points but I will do so in another post.

 

[Kelvin12]

Came across this U tube video myself and will be following his methods later. Sure is impressive growth and a pretty well relaxed approach.

Dirk

 

[Wookii]

Thank you all for this great thread, I've been wanting to participate for a while but couldn't catch up on my reading 🙂.
I wanted to discuss several points with you, the first of which concerns the amazing @Sudipta setup. I would like to quote a thread from MichaelJ (from another topic) which summarises the key elements :



With a similar configuration, I had found a few months ago the youtube channel of Yulia aquascape : https://www.youtube.com/c/YuliaAquascape





After reading the comments on his channel and watching the videos, here are the key points (I'm summarising) :

• No CO2 injection :

The author's assumptions : source of CO2 1. From fish inhalation 2. When the lights are off (Dark) the plants emit CO2 3. Skimmers also suck up CO2 elements from the outside air 4. When changing water (Water Change), new water contains CO2 (pearling plants for 2-3 days)?

• KH and GH : unfortunately unknown here, Yulia indicates that he uses well water, from the ground, rich in minerals but does not know the parameters
• pH : also unknown
• temperature : big difference here, he mentionned a water temperature of 25-30 °C
• Very low water column nutrients : same assumption here, he uses a liquid fertiliser which seems to be lean and doses once a week.
• Rich dirt DIY substrate and gravel here
• No mention of root tabs
• Merk Bio KCL fertilizer - (content?)
• No PAR data but 1. LED SAKKAI Pro 26W (Blue & White) 2. PHILIP LED 8W x 2Pcs (Warm) 3. DAY 47 Philip LED up to 12W x 2Pcs for a 60cm x 30cm x 40cm. So approx 1W LED/L. Even with a low PAR/W efficiency, I think strong lighting can be expected with such values. Given the density of the plants and colours also.
• 100% WC ! 3-4 days, sometimes 5 days & 7 days (pearling plants for 2-3 days)
• No/infrequent uprooting : same here
• No filtration !

So I see 3 big differences with Sudipta's tank: no filter here, relatively high temperatures and big water changes (for CO2 inputs). The plants are dense, the biomass should be high.
What do you think? I wanted to discuss other points but I will do so in another post.

Really interesting videos there, though I'm not sure it's relevant to this thread as we don't know anything about his dosing regime - though it does appear to be a complete NPK + Micros liquid fert.

I think there are a few key takeaways for me that I think aid his success;

1. He uses a very bacterially mature substrate, and plenty of it and so largely avoids any new tank syndrome. It seems to have a quite a mix of stuff in it, potentially some organic substances too, so possibly a fair bit of CO2 produced by the substrate for the plant roots, plus the obvious nutrient store. He appears to be a bit secretive about the substrate, but I'd wager he takes it straight from his outdoor growing tubs, and maybe mixes a bit of peat or other compost to it - it is clearly very well aged.
2. He does two very large water changes (>80% by the looks of it) per week, and so adds a good amount of dissolved CO2 to the system at those points, and removes any excess organics and ammonia from the water column at that point. The fact that he has no surface movement also ensures that dissolved CO2 remains in the water column for an extended period.
3. He runs relatively low light (I don't agree with your assessment that he has strong lighting - 24-26W of lighting on a 72 litre tank is really quite low), and runs an extended 12 hour photo period to maximise photosynthesis and DO production.
4. He is clearly meticulous with his maintenance. You can see the care he takes over trimming individual stems, and repositioning individual stems with teasers, which likely suggests a great deal of time is dedicated to maintaining that tank that a quick YouTube video can't really show.

It's certainly a stunning result, and something I may have a stab at myself at some point - though I'd be reluctant to add livestock to such a system.

 

[JoshP12]

I think it is important to say that the 80% water change exposes the plants to atmospheric gas and the plants then store those gases.

If repeated regularly and consitently, I don't think it is too farfetched to think the plant would respond by planning its consumption ... especially within reason (manipulating local environments of rhizosphere, plant surface, etc).

 

[Alexv95]

Thank you for your comments.

Really interesting videos there, though I'm not sure it's relevant to this thread as we don't know anything about his dosing regime - though it does appear to be a complete NPK + Micros liquid fert.

I think there are a few key takeaways for me that I think aid his success;

1. He uses a very bacterially mature substrate, and plenty of it and so largely avoids any new tank syndrome. It seems to have a quite a mix of stuff in it, potentially some organic substances too, so possibly a fair bit of CO2 produced by the substrate for the plant roots, plus the obvious nutrient store. He appears to be a bit secretive about the substrate, but I'd wager he takes it straight from his outdoor growing tubs, and maybe mixes a bit of peat or other compost to it - it is clearly very well aged.
2. He does two very large water changes (>80% by the looks of it) per week, and so adds a good amount of dissolved CO2 to the system at those points, and removes any excess organics and ammonia from the water column at that point. The fact that he has no surface movement also ensures that dissolved CO2 remains in the water column for an extended period.
3. He runs relatively low light (I don't agree with your assessment that he has strong lighting - 24-26W of lighting on a 72 litre tank is really quite low), and runs an extended 12 hour photo period to maximise photosynthesis and DO production.
4. He is clearly meticulous with his maintenance. You can see the care he takes over trimming individual stems, and repositioning individual stems with teasers, which likely suggests a great deal of time is dedicated to maintaining that tank that a quick YouTube video can't really show.

It's certainly a stunning result, and something I may have a stab at myself at some point - though I'd be reluctant to add livestock to such a system.

Yes, I agree that it is a bit annoying for the analysis not to know the exact fertilisation.
For the light, where do you see that he uses only 26W? On this video : he mentions 3 lights with a total of 66 W. Maybe I'm wrong but I'll be surprised if we can get such colours (rotala, alternanthera...) with low lighting, without CO2 injection.

The other aspect I wanted to talk about was CO2 (thx to mention it) : if we consider dissolved CO2, in @Sudipta's tank, there are many gas exchanges with the surface, which I guess tended to level out the CO2 level: the CO2 produced was removed at night to the equilibrium concentration with atmosphere. And conversely, during photosynthesis when the plants consumed all the CO2, the exchanges offers the opportunity to reintroduce some. The CO2 avaliable is always low butwith a relatively constant rate.

Here, with your hypotheses (which I also agree with) and with limited gas exchanges, I expect the rate to be maximum when the lighting are turned on and very low few hours later. We are typically in the fluctuating CO2 situations described by T. Barr, D. Wong and others, with great risk of unhealthy plants and algae +++. But nothing like that.
What is your opinion ?
My other hypothesis would be that ultimately without rich fertilization, plant growth is slowed down and the demand for CO2 is lower. But the substrate is still rich. And D. Walstad talks about this case of CO2 that can go down to 0 in her method, she recommends siesta to regenerate it. But this does not prevent fluctuations.
I'm confused on this point.

 

[Wookii]

For the light, where do you see that he uses only 26W? On this video :

I thought in your analysis you were saying which lights he was using in videos 1, 2 and 3:

No PAR data but 1. LED SAKKAI Pro 26W (Blue & White) 2. PHILIP LED 8W x 2Pcs (Warm) 3. DAY 47 Philip LED up to 12W x 2Pcs for a 60cm x 30cm x 40cm.

So are you saying he’s using all those at once?

If so, that is a fair bit more - that’d put him at about Chihiros WRGB II level.

I'm confused on this point.

Yes, me too. Even if most of the CO2 is coming from water changes, it’s very boom and bust - such inconsistency should be a nightmare for algae management.

His videos show the plants pearling, so there must be CO2 present, but that could well be filmed immediately after a water change.