Lean dosing pros and cons

[MichaelJ]

I have a completely different view. I can’t understand why people take advice from people who can’t show them something they would aspire to. It boggles my mind when folks give credence to someone who can’t demonstrate any success.

Hi @GreggZ I think I know what you mean... However, the problem with blanket statements like these (which always makes me wary, because they rarely apply to reality), is that a lot of extremely knowledgeable hobbyists provide really good advice on the best practices in the hobby without necessarily or currently applying the same principles as their advice reflects. I have taken a lot of advice that worked really well from people that didn't necessarily had the ability to back their advice with hard picture evidence. Most of what we are dealing with in this hobby is rarely black or white, but more like shades of gray.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

sorry i might been drunk while taking photo =)

With all that fabulous French wine who can blame you! 🙂

Nice plants! I cant wait to up my game on more difficult plants!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[eminor]

With all that fabulous French wine who can blame you! 🙂

Nice plants! I cant wait to up my game on more difficult plants!

Cheers,
Michael

French vine is the best yes 😀

i always did hard plant, there si so much fun to fail actually, i still can't grow tuberculatum fine, cabomba furcata is okay thought, my first plant was hemianthus cuba without co2, it went good for few weeks, then died

there is few plant i like that are easy like the beautifull hygrophila siamensis b, ludwigia sp red like on the pictures, actually there is a lot, but ludwigia sp red is not easy actually, because it's a challenge to keep it red all along the stems.

i can't thanks you enough guys, without you i'll be listening to seller telling me that maybe my phosphate level are bad, etc. i had a doubt about co2 being the root cause of bba, i now think it's true, i have not a single bba algae since i fixed the co2

 

[GreggZ]

Hi @GreggZ I think I know what you mean... However, the problem with blanket statements like these (which always makes me wary, because they rarely apply to reality), is that a lot of extremely knowledgeable hobbyists provide really good advice on the best practices in the hobby without necessarily or currently applying the same principles as their advice reflects. I have taken a lot of advice that worked really well from people that didn't necessarily had the ability to back their advice with hard picture evidence. Most of what we are dealing with in this hobby is rarely black or white, but more like shades of gray.

Cheers,
Michael

Agreed there are folks who give good advice but don't show pics. But in my experience that's very, very rare. I was speaking more to the loads of people who disperse really poor advice and also can't grow plants. You see it more on the FB groups than on a forum like this. Someone asks how to make their plants redder and 3 out of the 5 first responses will be "more iron". Show a pinhole in a plant and a chorus of more Potassium starts up. It's predictable. Yet people listen.

The best people to follow and get advice from lead by example. They consistently present something that folks would aspire to. I know a large number of people who fit that mold and they are always generous with their time and thoughts.

Sometimes people make this too complicated and overthink things. Seek out tanks that consistently demonstrate success in a style similar to what you have in mind. Then study their methods. When you do you begin to realize they all have a lot in common (many times it is NOT dosing). It's easily the quickest way to success.

 

[Hanuman]

here it is, i trimmed days before the pictures, since using urea i noticed few difference :

sorry i might been drunk while taking photo =)

• green are greener
• the pogostemon erectus is now growing fast as hell, amazing color
• the ludwigia is so red, never seen it that way
• the myriophyllum red stem is growing so well now
• the pinnatifada is getting red
• the most impressive is the limnophila hippuroide, since i use lean dosing it grow like weed, the color is getting better with urea/ammonia
• rotala macandra is great, new leaves looks good, still not sure about the sp ?
• rotala orange juice is really orange now
• bacopa moonirie is so green that i can see my soul in it

light duration : 5 hours
light : 2* t5ho 24w ( 360 par according to rotala butterfly)

And what is the dosing regime?

 

[Hanuman]

Agreed there are folks who give good advice but don't show pics. But in my experience that's very, very rare. I was speaking more to the loads of people who disperse really poor advice and also can't grow plants. You see it more on the FB groups than on a forum like this. Someone asks how to make their plants redder and 3 out of the 5 first responses will be "more iron". Show a pinhole in a plant and a chorus of more Potassium starts up. It's predictable. Yet people listen.

The best people to follow and get advice from lead by example. They consistently present something that folks would aspire to. I know a large number of people who fit that mold and they are always generous with their time and thoughts.

Sometimes people make this too complicated and overthink things. Seek out tanks that consistently demonstrate success in a style similar to what you have in mind. Then study their methods. When you do you begin to realize they all have a lot in common (many times it is NOT dosing). It's easily the quickest way to success.

That' why I mostly stopped several months ago posting in facebook groups. Facebook is really not a good platform for exchanging information in an adult and constructive manner.

 

[GreggZ]

That' why I mostly stopped several months ago posting in facebook groups. Facebook is really not a good platform for exchanging information in an adult and constructive manner.

Much depends on the group. Many of the best in the hobby hang out at two groups. Most of the others are complete free-for-alls and enter at your own risk. You know where I am a moderator. Anyone gets out of line with you let me know!!!😁

 

[eminor]

And what is the dosing regime?

N : 2.25 ppm (urea/ammonia)
P : 0.25 ppm
K : 1 ppm

Iron : DTPA, EDTA

i think CO2 is the most important thing in the aquarium, if your co2 is perfect, you can play with ferts, plant do not care a lot, there need to be long time without addind any ferts to get some deficiency but if your co2 is bad damn, it's impossible to make it work, i tried, i failed, consistant co2 is much much much easier.

 

[Hanuman]

Much depends on the group. Many of the best in the hobby hang out at two groups. Most of the others are complete free-for-alls and enter at your own risk. You know where I am a moderator. Anyone gets out of line with you let me know!!!😁

Honestly I think they are all pretty much the same in the sense that human behavior on facebook for some reason gets hijacked. I got warned then banned from THE high tech tank group about a year ago because some mod didn't like that I got argumentative, and honestly it was pretty pretty mild.

 

[Hanuman]

N : 2.25 ppm (urea/ammonia)
P : 0.25 ppm
K : 1 ppm

Are you referring to nitrogen (N) or NO3? Is that phosphorous (P) or PO4? Are those weekly targets or daily targets?
Is that a DIY fert or some commercial product?

i think CO2 is the most important thing in the aquarium, if your co2 is perfect, you can play with ferts, plant do not care a lot, there need to be long time without addind any ferts to get some deficiency but if your co2 is bad damn, it's impossible to make it work, i tried, i failed, consistant co2 is much much much easier.

Everything has its due place. Ferts included but yes the tendency to mainly focus on ferts sometimes overshadows the rest.

 

[eminor]

Are you referring to nitrogen (N) or NO3? Is that phosphorous (P) or PO4? Are those weekly targets or daily targets?
Is that a DIY fert or some commercial product?

i'm referring to N, i use P2O5 phosphorous, it's weekly target because otherwise you can't call that much lean dosing. i actually use commercial product for boxwood and conifer, the composition is good for planted aquarium, way lower than 99% of garden ferts

N = 1.25 not 2.25 sorry

Everything has its due place. Ferts included but yes the tendency to mainly focus on ferts sometimes overshadows the rest.

i agree

 

[Hanuman]

i'm referring to N, i use P2O5 phosphorous

So if my math is good that's roughly 10 : 0.8 : 1 NO3 : PO4 : K. Reason as I asked you is because most people in the hobby don't think in terms of N or P but rather in terms of NO3 and PO4. So just wanted to clarify to be sure were on the same page.

Now, if I am not mistaken you are using Fluval stratum which looking at your journal is ~ 2-3 months old. So currently your plants are tapping what they need from the substrate. But that substrate is not exactly a rich substrate. It does contain much nutrients though. If I read the manufacturer's marketing material it says the soil contains Potassium, Fe and Phosphorous among others. It is safe to assume it probably doesn't contain much of the rest. So, in other words you are dosing lean with those nutrients that are available in the substrate. NO3 on the other hand you are dosing ~ 10ppm so that's not exactly EI but not what I would call lean either. Depending how densely your tank is planted you might need to start dosing or root feed in a few months time as the soil will start depleting.I guess you will see when the time comes. Also if you are using tap water the buffering capacity of the soil will decrease much faster than you might wish. It could be a few months if your water has a high KH. So keep an eye on certain plants that prefer lower KH.

So to me there isn't much leanness in all that. You are simply surfing the rich substrate trial period. The length of that period will depend on how much growth/plants you have in the tank.

Cheers.

 

[Hanuman]

I see you corrected that N value. So should be something like 5.5ppm NO3.

 

[erwin123]

here it is, i trimmed days before the pictures, since using urea i noticed few difference :

sorry i might been drunk while taking photo =)

A bit too much camera shake to appreciate some of the plants, but definitely looking better! Hope you can update your journal with sharper photos
I also can't figure out what is the sp. of the Rotala Macrandra, I thought it was 'Green' but looks like its something else.
The Rotala H'ra is looking more like Rotala H'ra, because its starting to bend! I found the H'ra bending habit to be rather annoying as it would shade other plants.

 

[eminor]

So if my math is good that's roughly 10 : 0.8 : 1 NO3 : PO4 : K. Reason as I asked you is because most people in the hobby don't think in terms of N or P but rather in terms of NO3 and PO4. So just wanted to clarify to be sure were on the same page.

Now, if I am not mistaken you are using Fluval stratum which looking at your journal is ~ 2-3 months old. So currently your plants are tapping what they need from the substrate. But that substrate is not exactly a rich substrate. It does contain much nutrients though. If I read the manufacturer's marketing material it says the soil contains Potassium, Fe and Phosphorous among others. It is safe to assume it probably doesn't contain much of the rest. So, in other words you are dosing lean with those nutrients that are available in the substrate. NO3 on the other hand you are dosing ~ 10ppm so that's not exactly EI but not what I would call lean either. Depending how densely your tank is planted you might need to start dosing or root feed in a few months time as the soil will start depleting.I guess you will see when the time comes. Also if you are using tap water the buffering capacity of the soil will decrease much faster than you might wish. It could be a few months if your water has a high KH. So keep an eye on certain plants that prefer lower KH.

So to me there isn't much leanness in all that. You are simply surfing the rich substrate trial period. The length of that period will depend on how much growth/plants you have in the tank.

Cheers.

well, i already use osmocote in backup, with only 5 hours of light it's growing so fast, rotala is insane. i only use rain water which should be 0KH- 0GH, i then put calcium and magnesium to reach a ratio of Ca : Mg 3 : 1, i target GH of 5. I think the fluval is not working that hard

i also do use the rain water with the same parameters for all my tank, my roof is not that clean, water is kind of yellow but my filter clear it in few hours. walichii seems to hate hard water, tuberculatum too, but maybe that's just my experience with it.

I actually try kind of walstad tank with mist of charcoal / peat / French clay in it, i'm kind of mad

 

[Hanuman]

i only use rain water which should be 0KH- 0GH

👍 I misread your journal then. I thought you were using tap water.

 

[eminor]

A bit too much camera shake to appreciate some of the plants, but definitely looking better! Hope you can update your journal with sharper photos
I also can't figure out what is the sp. of the Rotala Macrandra, I thought it was 'Green' but looks like its something else.
The Rotala H'ra is looking more like Rotala H'ra, because its starting to bend! I found the H'ra bending habit to be rather annoying as it would shade other plants.

i always suspected it to be h'ra but never been certain, you fixed the mystery, i trim a lot to avoid shade, i reached a point where i don't want the rotala to grow that fast x)

 

[eminor]

👍 I misread your journal then. I thought you were using tap water.

i was when i used sand, but i switched to fluval, i don't want to throw money out window, my tap is GH 17, KH 11, would be interesting to see if now that i fixed the co2 faulty needle valve, maybe tuberculatum would grow in hard, but since it's my nightmare plant, so hard, i really can't grow it

 

[Hanuman]

i was when i used sand, but i switched to fluval, i don't want to throw money out window, my tap is GH 17, KH 11, would be interesting to see if now that i fixed the co2 faulty needle valve, maybe tuberculatum would grow in hard, but since it's my nightmare plant, so hard, i really can't grow it

Myriophyllum tuberculatum is actually a weed. I have to trim it every week. In your current setup it would grow just fine I think. It just needs plenty of light, good amounts of co2, traces and Fe. I uproot mine every week and replant. You can also trim it and it will start growing slower as it will branch out.

 

[eminor]

Myriophyllum tuberculatum is actually a weed. I have to trim it every week. In your current setup it would grow just fine I think. It just needs plenty of light, good amounts of co2, traces and Fe. I uproot mine every week and replant. You can also trim it and it will start growing slower as it will branch out.

funny thing is that it grow slow but nicely in my walstad tank, i might try it in my main tank with 48w of t5ho over a 15gallons tank, should be enough light now