Lean dosing pros and cons

[GreggZ]

Horticulture skills make the big difference, not the ferts.

This is true. It's the most underdiscussed/overlooked aspect of planted tanks. When you get to know the really successful people in the hobby it's a common theme.

 

[Hanuman]

Hi @Hanuman These are in capsules... Wont they eventually just dissolve when you pop them down in the substrate? I must say I've used Tropica caps in the past and if not dug in deep they would make their way out of substrate and float around 🙂

Cheers,
Michael

The transparent capsule will dissolves yes. They are made of gelatine. However the yellow beads will not. The dried ferts within them is released progressively and then you end up with an empty yellow shell. They are supposed to be biodegradable but it does take months, in fact years for them to completely biodegrade. That's the experience I have with osmocote in my tanks and in my potted plants.

 

[MichaelJ]

The transparent capsule will dissolves yes. They are made of gelatine. However the yellow beads will not. The dried ferts within them is released progressively and then you end up with an empty yellow shell. They are supposed to be biodegradable but it does take months, in fact years for them to completely biodegrade. That's the experience I have with osmocote in my tanks and in my potted plants.

All right, thanks for the heads up @Hanuman .... I'll guess I'll just try and bury them deep and see how it works if/when I use them.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[GreggZ]

Nice. I never to get to receive anything from him other than when I pay. 😂

Jokes aside, the problem with osmocote and root tabs is that they have not been developed specifically for planted aquariums so the use of those products aimed at terrestrial plants can reck havoc in tanks if used inappropriately. Has that root tab been developed himself?

It's good to have friends in high places!!😄 I can't comment yet on the composition but I would expect more information to be available very soon.

 

[MichaelJ]

What if one is taking pics of neighbour's tank?

That, I assure you, can get you into a lot of trouble as well.... outside the hobby!

 

[Hanuman]

It's good to have friends in high places!!😄 I can't comment yet on the composition but I would expect more information to be available very soon.

I am rough on the edges and tend to point out the descripencies to others. Maybe that's why I don't have that many friends to send me stuff 🤣.

 

[JacksonL]

All in all he just optimizes things and balances them. That's how he get those nice plants and pictures. Horticulture skills make the big difference, not the ferts.

This is my thinking too.
But I also think he must have an eye for miniscule changes in plant growth and health, so if he is finding positives in a different form of fertilisation I am definitely keen to hear about them.

 

[Happi]

Ever since people figured out how to make their own liquid fertilizer or diy root tabs, there has been huge increase in numbers of people selling their snake oils and special root tabs for profit.

Those who truly care about the hobbyists, they offered free help and shared all their knowledge, when they too could have been selling these snake oils.

Most people are selling different kinds of root tabs filled in gel cap, even Tropica is doing so, they all contain some of of fertilizer in them, weather it's only NPK or NPK plus traces, it's all available on the internet and can be easily DIY. I have never seen a special root tab fertilizer that will do any better than regular osmocote. Sellers use all kinds of tactics to sell their product. Just like when you go buy a car, they will always try to sell you something more expensive, but you need to decide you want a car that save you gas and take you around or you want to buy a car that cost you double just so you can impress others.

 

[Hanuman]

This is my thinking too.
But I also think he must have an eye for miniscule changes in plant growth and health, so if he is finding positives in a different form of fertilisation I am definitely keen to hear about them.

That's experience and plant knowlege. Years and years of watching plant grow in different setups and conditions.

But my opinion is that there is a lot of marketing involved too. I have been told at times that I have a fert "tunnel vision" even before me going in depth of my problem. I do think there is also a "plant form tunnel vision" by some old timers where a plant form is achieved through excessive or complicated tweaking of parameters and then it is thrown to the public as if that form is the one to aim form else you are doing everything wrong. I also see some form of arrogance being thrown around by some which is usually something that I profoundly dislike.

If you noticed there is a trend for the past few years where you see plants beyond their natural form. Tanks filled with colors and crazy shapes, but reality is that many plants don't exhibit such extreme shapes or colors naturally. So when you are being told that a plant should be such color or such form else your are doing something wrong, take a step back and reflect.

 

[Happi]

That, I assure you, can get you into a lot of trouble as well.... outside the hobby!

And I was told FTS was some kind of scientific irrefutable evidence of being "successful"

 

[erwin123]

You might be on to something. Xiaozhaung Wong is running a tank right now with a processed blend of osmocote at 5 times more than usual and 1/2 APT EI and the tank is a picture of health and stunning. I was talking to him about this and think I might explore and go down this road a bit myself.

Coincidentally I've been running my tank at 36% APT EI (0.9ml a day instead of the recommended 2.5ml a day) and adding Starxcote/Plantacote (Osmocote clones) every week since 20 Nov 2021 (i.e. rather than refreshing them every 3 months...)

I have photos before I started adding osmocote (I take a photo every week) so there are 'before' and 'after' photos. Maybe the Ludwigia Senegelansis looks a little better. The unstunting of A. Pedicatella is probably not due to osmocote but more due to reducing water column dosing.

 

[MichaelJ]

And I was told FTS was some kind of scientific irrefutable evidence.

haha.... nah! well, at the rate artificial intelligence in imaging is progressing, its just a matter of time before we see deep fakes of Full Tank Shots!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Horticulture skills make the big difference, not the ferts.

Hi @Hanuman I am always wary about blanket statements like that, but I do think you have a very, very good point. Our skills (or mostly the lack thereof) as aquatic gardeners should not be underestimated. The ability to prune and trim correctly for the benefit of healthy grow is rarely discussed on forums like this. We should definitely be talking more about this.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[ElleDee]

Ever since people figured out how to make their own liquid fertilizer or diy root tabs, there has been huge increase in numbers of people selling their snake oils and special root tabs for profit.

Those who truly care about the hobbyists, they offered free help and shared all their knowledge, when they too could have been selling these snake oils.

I mean, baking a cake isn't that hard, and yet people still buy them from the store for a premium. That doesn't make professional bakers snake oil salespeople. As long as the ferts work as intended, people are exchanging their money for professional skill and convenience - no one is being sneaky and no one is getting tricked. And I don't think you can fairly imply Xiaozhaung Wong doesn't share his knowledge for free. Maybe not all of it, I suppose.

 

[Hanuman]

Hi @Hanuman I am always wary about blanket statements like that, but I do think you have a very, very good point. Our skills (or mostly the lack thereof) as aquatic gardeners should not be underestimated. The ability to prune and trim correctly for the benefit of healthy grow is rarely discussed on forums like this. We should definitely be talking more about this.

Cheers,
Michael

It's a fact not a blanket statement. Every plants sp groups need to be handled in specific ways. Do they like trimming or not? Do they like uprooting or not. How should they be cut and replanted? How often can they be cut and uprooted? etc etc All this makes a major major difference in how your plants behave, look like and prosper. Overall how your tank looks like. You can have 2 exact same tanks with the exact same parameters, exact same plants, exact same dosing. One is handled by an experience person, the other by a beginner. Trust me, the difference you will see it within a few weeks. And a major one.

 

[ElleDee]

It's a fact not a blanket statement. Every plants sp groups need to be handled in specific ways. Do they like trimming or not? Do they like uprooting or not. How should they be cut and replanted? How often can they be cut and uprooted? etc etc All this makes a major major difference in how your plants behave, look like and prosper. Overall how your tank looks like. You can have 2 exact same tanks with the exact same parameters, exact same plants, exact same dosing. One is handled by an experience person, the other by a beginner. Trust me, the difference you will see it within a few weeks. And a major one.

I think one of the biggest signs that this is a young hobby is that plant retailers don't put enough effort in communicating a lot of this information in even the most basic way. I'm not even sure if they even know this information about their own plants - even big online retailers don't always have good photos of the submerged forms of their offerings. And I'm in the US where you can't expect your local fish store to know anything, anything at all, about how to grow plants - even if they have some for sale!

Now, there's no substitute for experience, but consumer education is a huge part of the retail horticulture world and it would improve the hobby to move in this direction.

 

[MichaelJ]

Every plants sp groups need to be handled in specific ways. Do they like trimming or not? Do they like uprooting or not. How should they be cut and replanted? How often can they be cut and uprooted?

Yep! Thats really all the good info we get (or seek out) when we buy plants or flowers for our yard. Good point!

 

[erwin123]

once the plants start growing like weeds, you become less concerned about the proper way to trim them, and focus on how to save time ... which usually is to pull them all out, hack them to size, then replant (I usually do this before a water change because of the mess it makes... but its fast!) 😅
Today is water change day so I'm pulling out my overgrown E. 'Vietnam' and E. 'Japan' to split them and maybe replant 1/3 of the plant and toss the remaining 2/3s..... occasionally I dislodge some osmocote but it hasn't cause any problem (as opposed to a JBL Kugeln ball...), I just pick up the exposed osmocote with tweezers and toss them.

 

[GreggZ]

Ever since people figured out how to make their own liquid fertilizer or diy root tabs, there has been huge increase in numbers of people selling their snake oils and special root tabs for profit.

That’s pretty harsh Happi. I assume you mean people like Marian Sterian and Xiaozhaung Wong. Two people who do so much to help the average aquarist and promote and sustain the hobby. They both share their knowledge freely, and have reliable and more importantly repeatable methodologies that are in wide use around the world.

The reality is that there are a huge number of people out there who keep planted tanks who have no interest in making their own root tabs or any fertilizers for the matter. I would say it’s the vast majority of hobbyist. Tens of thousands strong. For them convenience is well worth any extra cost. Kind of like Tropica selling a $20 bottle with $1.00 of fertilizer in it.

And I was told FTS was some kind of scientific irrefutable evidence of being "successful"

I have a completely different view. I can’t understand why people take advice from people who can’t show them something they would aspire to. It boggles my mind when folks give credence to someone who can’t demonstrate any success. I don’t mean a pic of a single plant. I mean a full tank shot with a wide variety of species in good health and presented in a way that creates a dynamic visual that’s captures your attention. It may not be “proof” but it’s the best thing we have. Separates the talkers from the doers.

There is so much misinformation out there that is repeated every day. And many times it’s the loudest people who are the least successful. Most times if you can convince them to provide a full tank shot well let’s just say it can be underwhelming. But that's a rare event because most of them never post any pics of anything ever. People take advice at their own risk. If someone can’t demonstrate success, who knows they might be taking weightlifting advice from the weakest guy in the gym. I see it happen every day.

 

[eminor]

here it is, i trimmed days before the pictures, since using urea i noticed few difference :

sorry i might been drunk while taking photo =)

• green are greener
• the pogostemon erectus is now growing fast as hell, amazing color
• the ludwigia is so red, never seen it that way
• the myriophyllum red stem is growing so well now
• the pinnatifada is getting red
• the most impressive is the limnophila hippuroide, since i use lean dosing it grow like weed, the color is getting better with urea/ammonia
• rotala macandra is great, new leaves looks good, still not sure about the sp ?
• rotala orange juice is really orange now
• bacopa moonirie is so green that i can see my soul in it

light duration : 5 hours
light : 2* t5ho 24w ( 360 par according to rotala butterfly)