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Is this hobby losing the plot?
- Thread starter Chris Jackson
- Start date
pepedopolous
Member
Thanks, Viktor. Though I'm just using a pH meter to measure pH not control it. it's just a 'pen' with a digital display that you dip in the water. Wouldn't re-using old soil prevent the initial low pH?
P
Alexander Belchenko
Member
I personally tried Tropica guide and their 90 days app. Just out of interest, back in 2013 when I was thinking I was not beginner anymore, just to check what route their app can lead an aquarist. Overall I think it's very good, because it tried to lead beginner by safest path possible, but it's not ideal though. At some point I had diatom algae, but guide don't mention it, and only recommended to add 1/2 does of micro nutrientrs. With advice from local forum I started to add macro earlier than tropica app suggested and that helps. Should have I followed their guide absolutely no exceptions, or should have I learned that diatoms can be cured by adding macro? I'm still in doubts.
Also Tropica app/guide is not very clear about adding macro, after 2 months it just said: add macro. Not very clear, probably due the fact I'm not native English speaker.
Also Tropica app/guide is not very clear about adding macro, after 2 months it just said: add macro. Not very clear, probably due the fact I'm not native English speaker.
zozo
Member
An aquarium is a living breathing symbiotic entity, its a little replica of what happens in mother nature.. It can't be seen as a box of numbers or as a puzzle you have to try to complete.There are so many factors playing a role that it's impossible to write a bible that contains it all. Every book is nothing but a rough guid line to help you to get a little closer to understanding the big picture. Yes just a little 🙂 because in this picture are still many many things we don't know. Maybe we never will know, but there is one thing you never should forget. Nature has no perfect constant number, it is a constanly changing and fluctuating cocktail thriving on PPM's and CEC's, milions of bacteria, hormones and many other things you dont even see and still many things nobody knows about. A little bit of this can have a major impact on that and it might even not be measurable for us.
That's the point why we are with so many different spieces on this planet, invironmental differences and fluctuations create other life forms with othe properties and addaptibilities. The system is so complex that we can talk for hours and write another milion words, it will never be the complete package containing it all, because there are still lots of things we don't have a clue about.
I started aquarium in 1973, did practice the hobby till about 1988, after that i tossed the hobby because i had seen enough of it. I kept my interest without practice and since there is more in life i focussed on other things, like gardening and ponds. I did read many books, articles, magazines whatever and even all of them piled tohether do not contain the whole picture. I don't give a flying figure about numbers i do it all by what they tell me.. And if one among the others tells me i don't like it in here i don't want to be here, i'm not going to try to push something down it's throath. I try to move it or just swap it with something that wants to be there among the others. If it's healthy it all is equaly as beautifull in their own way, choises in abbundancy.
Jesus Christ i'm much to philosophical for topics like this.. But this short quote says so many more than all books and numbers piled together.. 🙂
It's what you aim for..
And to quote and other dear UKAPS member from another topic "Patience is a virtue". 😉
And that's where the plot thickens.. 🙂
Since 1973 untill today nothing much has changes in this plot.. People were and still are educated and raised whit the collective and commercial thought.. "What do i want?". "I want that fish!" - "I want that plant!"
No matter what you want, an aquarium is and stays a living breathing symbiotic entity, its a replica of what happens in mother nature. It's not about what "you" want. 🙂 It's about what they want/it wants, the plants the fish, the symbiotic entity. There are 2 kinds of aquarists, the kind who insinctively think or learned to think "What do they want?" and build and work an aquarium in that pespective for them. And the other kind thinks instinctively "What do I want?" And build an aquarium for themselfs.
The keepers who build it for them and make choises of plants and fish in that perpective have the least problems and the most beautiful, atractive and natural harmonious aquariums and solve problems with just minor changes.
The keepers who build it for themselfs with only what do i want in perspective are the ones who oftenly run in to problems which are hard to tackle, because the starting point already failed harmoniously. Because it just isn't about you and what you want.
Now 25 years later i come back to the hobby and i see there developed a 3th kind of aquarist, the aquascaper. the most talented ones are a spinoff from the keepers who know what they/it wants. And play in that perspective with the what I want perspective and start a beauty contest. I'm not going to give examples, because i don't want to point a finger, offend or judge people. but there are aquascapes which are by the looks naturaly totaly off and far from what you would find in nature but still are judged in the contests top rating. And thats a dangerous mix for the common spectator. Those keepers make it so beatifull and looking so easy that they unwillingly helping to educate young interested newbies in the wrong direction and turning the collective thought "That's what i want!" up a notch. The pictures says without words "It's all about you, you can do and have all that you want.. They? Never mind they can addapt!?
Sorry Cinderella! it doesn't start there, it's not about you and not about what you want. It's about wath they want.. That's the philosophy. Aquarium keeping or working with nature in general isn't an excact sience from a book it actualy is more a philosophy. It's a way of thinking and feeling beyond yourself and what you want. When you come to the point where you get a grip of what they want, then you may start to think what do i want and what you can do whit that?
Are you a newbe? toss Fibernazie, toss the golden rule, toss the less is more idea. Toss the looks. Don't let a beauty contest push your buttons (yet). Read books between the lines many things are possible, they are a guide not a rule,, Start with a jungle style aquarium.. Grab a tank, toss in is much plants as you can, take a moderate firt regime and moderate lights, see what they do and how they grow, get to know them. If they don't grow move them to an other spot and watch again.. Or take 'm out and swap. Make your fish happy, make a playground with loads of hidding places, see and feel the harmony.. grow into it, the rest comes naturaly over time.. Don't stare yourself a blind eye on the happy few who have it naturaly or are just lucky in replicating.
It's not about you!! 🙂
Cheers..
That's the point why we are with so many different spieces on this planet, invironmental differences and fluctuations create other life forms with othe properties and addaptibilities. The system is so complex that we can talk for hours and write another milion words, it will never be the complete package containing it all, because there are still lots of things we don't have a clue about.
I started aquarium in 1973, did practice the hobby till about 1988, after that i tossed the hobby because i had seen enough of it. I kept my interest without practice and since there is more in life i focussed on other things, like gardening and ponds. I did read many books, articles, magazines whatever and even all of them piled tohether do not contain the whole picture. I don't give a flying figure about numbers i do it all by what they tell me.. And if one among the others tells me i don't like it in here i don't want to be here, i'm not going to try to push something down it's throath. I try to move it or just swap it with something that wants to be there among the others. If it's healthy it all is equaly as beautifull in their own way, choises in abbundancy.
Jesus Christ i'm much to philosophical for topics like this.. But this short quote says so many more than all books and numbers piled together.. 🙂
It's what you aim for..
And to quote and other dear UKAPS member from another topic "Patience is a virtue". 😉
And that's where the plot thickens.. 🙂
Since 1973 untill today nothing much has changes in this plot.. People were and still are educated and raised whit the collective and commercial thought.. "What do i want?". "I want that fish!" - "I want that plant!"
No matter what you want, an aquarium is and stays a living breathing symbiotic entity, its a replica of what happens in mother nature. It's not about what "you" want. 🙂 It's about what they want/it wants, the plants the fish, the symbiotic entity. There are 2 kinds of aquarists, the kind who insinctively think or learned to think "What do they want?" and build and work an aquarium in that pespective for them. And the other kind thinks instinctively "What do I want?" And build an aquarium for themselfs.
The keepers who build it for them and make choises of plants and fish in that perpective have the least problems and the most beautiful, atractive and natural harmonious aquariums and solve problems with just minor changes.
The keepers who build it for themselfs with only what do i want in perspective are the ones who oftenly run in to problems which are hard to tackle, because the starting point already failed harmoniously. Because it just isn't about you and what you want.
Now 25 years later i come back to the hobby and i see there developed a 3th kind of aquarist, the aquascaper. the most talented ones are a spinoff from the keepers who know what they/it wants. And play in that perspective with the what I want perspective and start a beauty contest. I'm not going to give examples, because i don't want to point a finger, offend or judge people. but there are aquascapes which are by the looks naturaly totaly off and far from what you would find in nature but still are judged in the contests top rating. And thats a dangerous mix for the common spectator. Those keepers make it so beatifull and looking so easy that they unwillingly helping to educate young interested newbies in the wrong direction and turning the collective thought "That's what i want!" up a notch. The pictures says without words "It's all about you, you can do and have all that you want.. They? Never mind they can addapt!?
Sorry Cinderella! it doesn't start there, it's not about you and not about what you want. It's about wath they want.. That's the philosophy. Aquarium keeping or working with nature in general isn't an excact sience from a book it actualy is more a philosophy. It's a way of thinking and feeling beyond yourself and what you want. When you come to the point where you get a grip of what they want, then you may start to think what do i want and what you can do whit that?
Are you a newbe? toss Fibernazie, toss the golden rule, toss the less is more idea. Toss the looks. Don't let a beauty contest push your buttons (yet). Read books between the lines many things are possible, they are a guide not a rule,, Start with a jungle style aquarium.. Grab a tank, toss in is much plants as you can, take a moderate firt regime and moderate lights, see what they do and how they grow, get to know them. If they don't grow move them to an other spot and watch again.. Or take 'm out and swap. Make your fish happy, make a playground with loads of hidding places, see and feel the harmony.. grow into it, the rest comes naturaly over time.. Don't stare yourself a blind eye on the happy few who have it naturaly or are just lucky in replicating.
It's not about you!! 🙂
Cheers..
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flygja
Member
The ADA fert line content, as far as I know, was only done by Tom Barr which he sent off for chemical analysis. ADA themselves didn't publish the contents and concentration. Brighty K is just "Deep Sea Water with K" or something like that. Brighty Step 1 is Traces with no Macros. We all know what ferts are needed for a tank, but its the concentration that is important.
I fully agree about the lifestyle statement. I don't doubt that their stuff works. It's kinda like Starbucks in my country - Malaysia. They sell so-so coffee at a high price, yet their outlets are always full. So they're selling the lifestyle - its cool to be seen in Starbucks with a Starbucks cup and your tablet/smartphone/macbook. If I do strike the lottery, I'll buy into the entire ADA lifestyle, because I'm really curious as to how the whole system works and yes, its cool as heck 😉
Being first is important, but companies don't plan for short term only. While they continue to innovate to find the next best thing, they need to continue to protect their current USPs. Even ADA wrote some articles about their soil vs other brands, their CO2 diffuser vs other brands. Think about it in the extreme, if ADA said "Oh, you wanna know where I dig for Aquasoil Amazonia? Over there" or "Oh just mix these 5 ingredients in these concentrations, you can make your own Bright Lights", how long would they survive for? Another example, I see that most of the active hobbyists on this forum are not buying ADA lily pipes anymore, preferring cheaper alternatives like Cal Aqua, Gush, etc. I think ADA would be worried about that.
I do appreciate what the companies have done for the hobby and I don't expect them to reveal all their secrets to hobbyists either.
flygja
Member
The way I think about it, there are always multiple ways to go about achieving the same results. A good example is "format wars". Beta vs VHS. Bluray vs HD-DVD. Both formats achieve the same result but using different methodology. EI vs PPS-Pro vs PMDD vs Tropica vs ADA vs Seachem are all different methods of fertilising. They all work to some extent, based on research and company direction. For Tropica, I find that their method of using 4x 54W T5HO a short distance on top of their 300L tanks is madness with only 30ppm of CO2, using their own line of ferts (which has less concentration than EI) and the built-in sump filter. But it somehow works!
flygja
Member
I think you hit the crux of the problem right there. And reading this entire thread would have alluded to this - There's no one good book because information gets outdated, new methods are created, different manufacturers have different methods/biases. The first level of information is always the same - good soil, practical amount of light, sufficient CO2, sufficient fertilisation, effective filtration. Second level is where it all goes into the blender. Previously one of the advices I gave out to newbies is to copy someone's tank that is within your means. Now I don't know if its applicable anymore.
I have read this entire thread and you're right, I didn't expect a simple solution. Nor would I want one really...
If it was easy it would be no fun and not nearly as satisfying when I got it at least partly "right". And the reality is, the day (if it ever comes and I'm sure it won't) that I look at my tank and say it's perfect and stable... I'll kind of run out of things to do, you know? So do I start another tank? Rip it down and re-model the existing one? Take up gardening and ponds..?
I rather keep hunting for the holy grail than find it in a way. How many of you can put your hand on your heart and say, if somebody had the solution to all your aquatic problems, that you even want to look. My point is, if the companies knew all along and they suddenly decided to tell us, or if they had no clue and suddenly decided to invest time effort and money, then publish their findings, they'd lose business, we'd lose the thrill of the hunt and the whole thing would become a bit boring... wouldn't it? (This doesn't contradict my question for a good book, as I wasnt looking for an instruction manual, just a basic overview of the fundamentals of aquatic plant keeping)
Anybody looking for a "painting by numbers" approach, I believe, will be disappointed, as discussed here I can't imagine a scenario where somebody can say "Do this that and the other and the result will be so and so" as some unknown variable will knock the whole thing out anyway.
I find one of the strongest learning tools - besides trial and error - is sitting in on conversations like this and absorbing all the differing opinions and beliefs so I can take little bits of knowledge away with me and use them to interpret the results of my own trial and error... If that makes sense.
So thank you all. I'll shut up again and keep reading...
If it was easy it would be no fun and not nearly as satisfying when I got it at least partly "right". And the reality is, the day (if it ever comes and I'm sure it won't) that I look at my tank and say it's perfect and stable... I'll kind of run out of things to do, you know? So do I start another tank? Rip it down and re-model the existing one? Take up gardening and ponds..?
I rather keep hunting for the holy grail than find it in a way. How many of you can put your hand on your heart and say, if somebody had the solution to all your aquatic problems, that you even want to look. My point is, if the companies knew all along and they suddenly decided to tell us, or if they had no clue and suddenly decided to invest time effort and money, then publish their findings, they'd lose business, we'd lose the thrill of the hunt and the whole thing would become a bit boring... wouldn't it? (This doesn't contradict my question for a good book, as I wasnt looking for an instruction manual, just a basic overview of the fundamentals of aquatic plant keeping)Anybody looking for a "painting by numbers" approach, I believe, will be disappointed, as discussed here I can't imagine a scenario where somebody can say "Do this that and the other and the result will be so and so" as some unknown variable will knock the whole thing out anyway.
I find one of the strongest learning tools - besides trial and error - is sitting in on conversations like this and absorbing all the differing opinions and beliefs so I can take little bits of knowledge away with me and use them to interpret the results of my own trial and error... If that makes sense.
So thank you all. I'll shut up again and keep reading...
Hi all,
Neither of them are really about aquascaping, but Diana Walstad's <"Ecology of the Planted Aquarium"> is probably the best book on plants in the aquarium, and the same applies to the <"Skeptical Aquarist"> web-site as a source for general scientific information.
cheers Darrel
Neither of them are really about aquascaping, but Diana Walstad's <"Ecology of the Planted Aquarium"> is probably the best book on plants in the aquarium, and the same applies to the <"Skeptical Aquarist"> web-site as a source for general scientific information.
cheers Darrel
I must admit that I've always envied those with awesome aquascapes and exotic looking stem plants in a spotless tank, something which I can't achieve. But when I ask myself how they achieved it I tend to get overwhelmed with the amount of work needed and what appears to be some costly equipment, substrate and the need to get the CO2 and flow correct etc. Whenever I get into these situations not knowing what I want to achieve and do (which is occurring outside of this hobby with my desire to be an Illustrator but needing to hone my skills), I tend to ask myself why have I chosen this path of growing plants or career choice and the same answer comes back. It's because I enjoy it. I enjoyed keeping fish and I looked into the planted aquarium in order to create a suitable habitat for the aquarium's inhabitants. I was not looking at the presentation of it nor was hoping to be alongside with the professional aquascapers. Being able to keep simple plants like Anubias and Crypts are actually enough for me, I don't bother much with the locations of the plants, as long as they are doing well is enough for me since I know they help to keep whatever is in my tank alive.
What i'm trying to get across is that you need to know what you are wanting to achieve and choose the right plants for your needs. Obviously you need to read up on the basics and get a grasp of the relationships light, CO2 and nutrients etc have on the plants. But for you to enjoy this hobby, you need not go broke, for example you can have a good substrate for £3 or so buy purchasing and washing some Tesco Cat Litter or go out to your garden for some dirt. Don't dwell on the branded products and statistics which may otherwise confuse you (unless you genuinely want to know the higher level of science behind it), keep it simple, observe and discuss with others who are in the hobby and exchange information to better your understanding of things so you can have fun.
Also, accept the failures you experience, everyone goes through them. The best way to minimize them is to again know what you want and your limits. Try out low tech setups to understand the needs of the plants through the less demanding ones, the great thing about low tech is that everything is happening so slow that it gives you time to change and learn before a plant fails. Once you have a better understanding/more time on your hands, you can try out high tech setups. One thing which puts beginners off the hobby is certainly through the comparisons of their tanks with the pro aquascapers. They want to get good fast and skip steps. If they tried low tech setups first and experience the success of growing the low demanding plants while building up their knowledge, I'm sure their view of the hobby would have changed.
What i'm trying to get across is that you need to know what you are wanting to achieve and choose the right plants for your needs. Obviously you need to read up on the basics and get a grasp of the relationships light, CO2 and nutrients etc have on the plants. But for you to enjoy this hobby, you need not go broke, for example you can have a good substrate for £3 or so buy purchasing and washing some Tesco Cat Litter or go out to your garden for some dirt. Don't dwell on the branded products and statistics which may otherwise confuse you (unless you genuinely want to know the higher level of science behind it), keep it simple, observe and discuss with others who are in the hobby and exchange information to better your understanding of things so you can have fun.
Also, accept the failures you experience, everyone goes through them. The best way to minimize them is to again know what you want and your limits. Try out low tech setups to understand the needs of the plants through the less demanding ones, the great thing about low tech is that everything is happening so slow that it gives you time to change and learn before a plant fails. Once you have a better understanding/more time on your hands, you can try out high tech setups. One thing which puts beginners off the hobby is certainly through the comparisons of their tanks with the pro aquascapers. They want to get good fast and skip steps. If they tried low tech setups first and experience the success of growing the low demanding plants while building up their knowledge, I'm sure their view of the hobby would have changed.
M
Marcel G
Guest
In my opinion, one of the best aquarium books ever for installation and care of the freshwater aquarium is The Optimum Aquarium by Kaspar Horst and Horst E. Kipper from 1986 (1st edition) or 1988 (2nd edition). It can be bought at Amazon or ebay. It's very informative, well written, and contains a great number of analyses as well.
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
Thank-you, that is a new one for me, I've just ordered a pre-owned copy via Amazon.for £5.
cheers Darrel
zozo
Member
That's a nice deal Darrel.. 🙂 seems not to be available anymore in new condition. But used still offered regularly in original edition, which is in German.. For those who are interested and can.. 🙂. Can search for ISBN: 3925916083
Edvet
Member
I have it, i liked it in the beginning, though it feels a tad biased on Dupla stuff........😉
zozo
Member
Yup thats what the review sais too.. 🙂 Both authors are/were Dupla employees and promoting that stuff a lot in the book. But besides that it's indeed the first book reviewed in that article as number 1 to have 🙂.. The second book was from same author, titled "My First Aquarium". Dummy for beginners...
OllieNZ
Member
I also own it, it was one of my first aquarium books. Unfortunately some of the ideas in regards to setup and running an aquarium are a tad dated but it's still well worth a read and their studies they carried out in the wild are gold dust
G
Guest
Guest
Nice tank...This could be contentious but I am really curious. Since joining this forum last year I have noticed a huge focus towards flow, distribution and high levels of CO2 and EI ferts. I'm not saying any of this is wrong but it also doesn't seem to have made things any easier for beginners
Beginners regularly post new threads following this advice with their whirlpools of CO2 micro bubbles with green drop checkers, plenty of ferts. yet still with plants melting and algae issues... When did it become so difficult? My first planted tanks had T8 lights, bubble ladder reactors and the plants grew like crazy without any of these dramas. I might have given up otherwise.
This is my tank form April 2003, it's 1200 x 60 x 60. Lighting is 4 x T5 Tubes (staggered through a 10 hour photo period). Substrate is Dennerle Deponit Mix with gravel overlay and a heater cable. CO2 operated by a PH controller set at 6.6 with 3dkh water with injection at 2BPS directly in to the filter inlet of one canister filter.
The simple open pipe outlet of the single Eheim 2226 filter is at the back right corner so that the water circulates gently round the whole tank a bit like stirring a bucket but there was little visible movement of the plants in the flow except at the back near the outlet. Now I'm not saying this is anywhere near Amano quality but by the same token I don't think many would complain about a tank with growth as lush as this. Fertilisation was mostly pinches of KNO3 as and when it seemed appropriate, with some Tropica liquid from time to time also when it seemed necessary. All a bit seat of the pants really but no atomiser, ugly co2 mist, no mega flow and few algae issues. Full lighting on for 5 hours in the afternoon.
I know what you mean...I thought the same thing when I re-entered the hobby in Nov 2011 after a 25 year,or so, hiatus.
Being new to forums as well, and not fully appreciating the appropriate etiquette, I even posted a slightly embarrassing rant entitled - The High-tech way or the Highway, which I hesitate to link here...but what the hell...it may prove amusing...Clive didn't like it very much...😀 http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-high-tech-way-or-the-highway.18562/
And, not only but also, it was the precursor to my Tutorial The Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide...
Needless to say I'd recommend the low-energy soil substrate way for newbies, because there is so much that can be achieved with relatively low risk - including to the bank balance.
It seems it's also increasingly becoming a sanctuary for battle weary high-energy refugees who've decided they need a change of pace...and therein lies the fundamental lesson that others have commented on...it takes time and patience - but the end results are worth it.
zozo
Member
Lol..
Chris Jackson
Member
Yes good link. I think my frustration is that there seems to have been a loss of the middle ground and everybody is getting obsessed with CO2 and flow levels when actually you can grow most things very well with moderate flow, light, and CO2 which would make life far easier for beginners as it did for me when I started out with CO2.
I upgraded the tank pictured a few years later to include 2 x 150w halides as well as the 4 T5's but soon tired of uber growth and the constant trimming. Last year I got well schooled in the full high light, high everything approach with an Aquasky 602 and 60h tank. I learnt loads and indeed revovered from my algae farm after much reading and tweaking but now I've settled back to something less intense and with a very high degree of control over my lighting. Maybe soil could be next...
