Is this hobby losing the plot?

[Jose]

Remember that what is happening in your tank may be affected by dozens of parameters you are not taking into account, and this does not make advice from others wrong

This types of affirmations is what keeps us in the dark. Thinking that companies know their things and that they know more than anyone else, and thinking that the planted tank has got millions of parameters that make a difference. Well I just dont see it that way. IMO it can be reduced down to light, ferts, and CO2/flow and maybe plant biomass, water hardness, water changes, temperature and not many more. bUT People think its very complicated stuff so I'm not going to convince anyone I know, nor do I want to.

 

[parotet]

This types of affirmations is what keeps us in the dark.

I just try to be honest. I'm just saying that saying "it does not work in my tank" is not enough

and thinking that the planted tank has got millions of parameters that make a difference

IMO it can be reduced down to light, ferts, and CO2/flow and maybe plant biomass, water hardness, water changes and not many more.

That's what I think too, but it is quite complex dealing with 10 important parameters. If I'm not wrong, statistically a combination of ten parameters in groups of 2 (testing these 10 parameters but in each case keeping all the same except the two to be compared) would deliver 45 different situations. We need to simplify things but remembering that a certain degree of complexity occurs.

Thinking that companies know their things and that they know more than anyone else

Tropica staff is has been growing Staurogyne probably during the last 20 years... I would say they know what they do.

Jordi

 

[Jose]

That's what I think too, but it is quite complex dealing with 10 important parameters. If I'm not wrong, statistically a combination of ten parameters in groups of 2 (testing these 10 parameters but in each case keeping all the same except the two to be compared) would deliver 45 different situations. We need to simplify things but remembering that a certain degree of complexity occurs.

But you dont need to get an exact number for each of them, there is quite a wide range for most of them. Im not saying its not hard for a beginner, yes it is, but also its not magic like many would like it to be.

 

[pepedopolous]

Remember that what is happening in your tank may be affected by dozens of parameters you are not taking into account, and this does not make advice from others wrong

I'm sorry Jordi, and I expected this kind of response, but this is just like saying 'the Lord works in mysterious ways' - completely unsatisfactory. It's just someone's subjective experience versus another's.

There is an answer out there and it needs real research.

Tropica staff is has been growing Staurogyne probably during the last 20 years... I would say they know what they do.

If there is a certain factor which despite adequate CO2, leads plants like Staurogyne to be unhealthy in low light aquariums, would Tropica etc. be so kind as to share that with us? It seems quite uncharitable to leave loyal customers in the dark like that.

Without this info is it any wonder we end up with extreme approaches like 'turning everything up to eleven' or 'nutrients=algae'.

P

 

[Jose]

. I would say they know what they do.

I would say they know how to grow it well, and thats it.

 

[Alexander Belchenko]

I'm sorry? Are we talking about the same staurogyne?
http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Staurogynerepens(049G)/4481
it's not even in medium category - it's in easy one.
I don't agree with it either, not easy plant at all.

What I miss a lot on many many websites about plants: not only origin and light/co2 demands, but also more parameters about water chemistry like hardness (KH preferably). Is it from black water or not? Etc.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm sorry Jordi, and I expected this kind of response, but this is just like saying 'the Lord works in mysterious ways' - completely unsatisfactory. It's just someone's subjective experience versus another's.

It would be really good to quantify things, but you really would need a lot of time and money.

If I'm not wrong, statistically a combination of ten parameters in groups of 2 (testing these 10 parameters but in each case keeping all the same except the two to be compared) would deliver 45 different situations.

That is the real problem, and you would actually need more replication than that with a traditional statistical approach.

Assuming that the variables are <"parametric"> you would need a minimum of 6 replicates of each different treatment, and if there are 10 variables of which you would need at least 4 different levels. If you assume that all the parameters are independent (and you would have to start from this assumption) you would use <"one way analysis of variance"> with a <"fully factorial design">. This gives you 10 x 4 = 40 different combinations, replicated 6 times, giving you a grand total of 240 combinations.

Even if you said it was 3 key variables and 3 levels you would still have 3 x 3 x 6 = 54 combinations.

If you could accurately measure the parameters in the tank, which would be particularly problematic with dissolved gases, you could build a model using a GLM (<"generalised linear model">) or a <"multivariate approach">, using something like <"multidimensional scaling">.

The great advantage of this is is that you could take data from a wide variety of differing tanks, such as hobbiest tanks, but it would be reliant on accurate measurement of parameters, some of which (fish health etc.) will be subjective.

If we had a lot of data of the quality <"Marcel G" has been collecting>, then we could get a lot nearer to the "answer".

cheers Darrel

 

[Sk3lly]

Surely theres a difference growing these plants for sale and actually having them grow in our tanks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Surely theres a difference growing these plants for sale and actually having them grow in our tanks?

I think there is, and that is also a really important issue.

Nurseries grow plants emersed because that is a successful business model, and supplies the retailer with an attractive plant which doesn't have algae etc.

Access to aerial levels of CO2 allows you to have a longer photo-period and use higher nutrient levels. Plants can be produced more cheaply, and sold more cheaply.

I don't see that model changing, because relatively few people are going to pay a premium for a smaller plant, potentially with some algae, that has been grown submersed, even if it might be more successful in the long term. Have a look at <"low tech plants"> for comment from "Mick.Dk".

cheers Darrel

 

[pepedopolous]

I'm not denying the complexity of the task, nor blaming any one company in particular (I use Tropica plants and soil). However, the situation is generally frustrating and as I get more experienced I just try to be more patient and adjust my expectations. If anyone could/should do research, it's the companies within the hobby.

I can't help but wonder if (money and space for a RO unit notwithstanding), I would have more chance of long-term success in the marine/reefkeeping side of the hobby? This is because coral husbandry is being researched due to conservation issues and the many large public marine aquariums around the world, often supported by universities etc. (I know of course about ADA's massive Lisbon aquarium but this is a temporary exhibit that is closed for days at a time for maintenance). So although there are plenty of alternative methods for keeping reef aquariums, and pedlars of snake oil, successful reef aquariums are known to last years and years and the means to achieve success seem to me to be less mysterious and more reliable for average hobbyists.

P

 

[Chris Jackson]

Nurseries grow plants emersed because that is a successful business model, and supplies the retailer with an attractive plant which doesn't have algae etc.

Access to aerial levels of CO2 allows you to have a longer photo-period and use higher nutrient levels. Plants can be produced more cheaply, and sold more cheaply.

Tropica used to say that emmersed grown plants where stronger because of being grown that way made them better able to adapt to life submersed in the varying conditions of peoples aquariums than those grown submersed already. Seems to make sense.

Clearly there are many routes to success but as far as companies are concerned ADA lead the way by some distance in my opinion. However they are very clever with their image making, the ADA Gallery is only open one day a week when everything can be at it's best and they only publish photos that show the tanks at there very best as well. How many companies can confidently plant and establish a 2m deep 40m tank in 3-4 months with apparently no dramas?

How many people here have planted up a 60p using the full ADA ferts, substrate, equipment and only ADA advice? Any...probably not, you'd need deep pockets, but if you did would all run smoothly? It would be nice to think so....

I'm too long in the hobby for that and have to tinker and experiment.....

But for someone who just wants a nice planted tank in their living room, forget, bright lights, EI and fizzy whirlpools....

 

[Alexander Belchenko]

IIUC reef tank requires almost full control over all parameters. Today AFAIK led light experiments is where all troubles begin.

Probably if you will use in planted tank only remineralized RO water to some "ideal" parameters (I think that's KH=2, GH=6-8) and provide some average CO2 and average light - most of your plants will grow just fine.

 

[Alexander Belchenko]

How many people here have planted up a 60p using the full ADA ferts, substrate, equipment and only ADA advice? Any...probably not, you'd need deep pockets, but if you did would all run smoothly? It would be nice to think so....

I'm too long in the hobby for that and have to tinker and experiment.....

Here in my country I know only few of really good aquascapers who run full ADA system and properly follow their giudes and advices, and who report it success. For others this is tooooooo expensive.

 

[viktorlantos]

I think the problem is still the reading. There are dozens of wonderful guides and information. But many beginners do not like reading. They are asking questions and try to find answers in journals or different topics. Tropica has wonderful guides like how much algae eater you need. ADA has many planting caring tips and general operation. Are you interested in nature habitat to learn more? Kasselmann plant bible has that. All puzzles on the desk just need to read it.

But i see beginners helps other beginners as older members getting tired of the repetitive questions. It is not a hard thing to do. And if you leave behind costs, pricing, marketing you will see that Tropica, ADA and others are helping a lot and the goal is common. Have more successful long-term hobbyist. The more problem you have the less you read in the past from the useful sources.

No need contest tank everywhere, but you can do healthy tank on many levels. Of course there are important things and none of the tanks will run in autopilot mode. You need to take care of it.

Maybe a quick starter summarized points for all beginner in a topic with resource link would be enough. Like to all newcomers, plant growers. Having this highlighted.

But i do not believe in that, all beginners need to dig into test kits, zillion scenarios, or the lumen craziness. We just confuse them with all of this. If he stays in the hobby a little longer he will learn much more easier all about it. Just have some success as a starter.

 

[viktorlantos]

Back to Tropica. 2 years ago (or a little earlier?) Tropica changed the way of promoting aquatic plants. Strange how time is moving and information lost quickly.
But this campaign built by some of the best and most experienced UKAPS members. These guys spent weeks to build up something which is easy to understand for all.
Tropica even made a step by step guide.

http://tropica.com/en/guide/make-your-aquarium-a-success/

Check the rest of the menus on the left. Easy not needed too much reading. They build it for an avg aquarist. But you can have success keeping all of this in mind.

 

[viktorlantos]

On Staurogyne and some other plants. The general guide Tropica has is right.
But there are plants which easier to melt in new condition than others.

Maybe this is something what would be nice to have highlighted in a catalog since we know many of them.
But if not then your retailer need to inform you which are the typical problems.

I usually try to avoid selling plants which is 50-50% success rate to stay alive to any beginner. And tells to my clients to go with an easier one.
They seen a perfect Utricularia carpet? Nice, keep that in mind coz 99% that you will not have it 🙂 Do it when you're ready to play a little and accept failures.

Crypts, Blyxa, Staurogyne melting? Well they look bad after that but hey most of them grows out quickly from the roots again. And that plant will work better with your water condition then.
Just give it a little time. Maybe you will not have a beauty Staurogyne bushy part in 2 weeks but after 4 months you will hate it how it's overgrown and need to take care all the time 🙂

Patience. That is the key. I only have a few plants in my head which i do not like to work with. All others works immediately or after a little time.

We do have 20 display tanks. And i frequently sees that if i move over a wonderful microsorum trident bunch to another tank which also running with the same RO water, same temp, but the micros will have algae on it after a week.
Stress, just a little conditional change. Coz in the other tank has a decoration element which raise the hardness a bit. Light, CO2, ferts everything else is the same. And still it will be a harder 1 months to get over on this thing.
Same with Riccardia moss and many others. This is normal.

If we accept that these are living things and need time to work with the new environment we will see more success stories.

 

[viktorlantos]

I also like what Tom Barr does with his tank. Beautiful gardening! Just in the real garden he move plants quickly if that plant do not feel ok in a spec position
Maybe this is not a step1 beginner class, but something what remind us that a tank can have multiple locations with different conditions. light etc. And some plant may will appreciate better the more open areas than others.
A lot to learn just from those posts.

Ah so many things on the plate. 🙂 But you also need to try some of it.
I do not remember how much failures i had in the past and still has some nowadays. That's normal.
And i still say that algae is our best friend. A very good indicator that you're getting lazy, you forget about something, a CO2 may ran out or leaking etc etc.
Helps me every day bugfixing who messed up what in our tanks 🙂

 

[pepedopolous]

I think things are surely getting easier for absolute beginners because there are far more shops (both LFS and online) and forums like UKAPS with really good advice from helpful members 🙂

The truth is that even with experience and practice, this hobby simply isn't easy. I think perhaps this is where beginners could be given a more realistic picture.

It's more experienced members too, who express frustration and these are people who don't need a beginners guide from Tropica. Maybe with new knowledge the learning curve actually gets steeper?

There are some people who feel they had comparable or even more success when they were starting out, through sheer luck, even though they had less knowledge, experience, and cupboards full of aquarium gear!

For example, reading UKAPS you quickly learn about the effectiveness of doing a CO2 profile, ensuring a 1 unit ph drop before lights on. Just about any problem is solved by 'more CO2!'. However, now I find myself constantly being stressed out about the possible miscalibration of my pH meter, possible leaks in my CO2 setup, and even though I have more than a 1 unit pH drop, my Staurogyne isn't lush.

In my case, I think the answer has been to have 2 aquariums so if I get frustrated by one, I focus on the other one with fresh enthusiasm. It's kinda like gambling addiction! 😉

However, I expect that other people might drift to their other hobbies or even leave the aquarium hobby altogether. Now that can't be good for business, can it?

P

 

[viktorlantos]

However, now I find myself constantly being stressed out about the possible miscalibration of my pH meter, possible leaks in my CO2 setup, and even though I have more than a 1 unit pH drop, my Staurogyne isn't lush.

I do not want to go offtopic here, but i rarely use pH computers. Sometimes this is helpful, but since active soils, soft water, spec bio mediums etc you will face with more problems than success.
I do use a profilux machine on some of our tanks, On fresh start i surely sees that pH probe is hard to work with. And you will dose less CO2 with it than it is needed many times, coz pH is already too low.

Later on after 2-3 months when the pH dropping is less by the soil you will have more success with a pH computer.

Just look at this chart from my Profilux machine on my last scape. Especially the first part of the pH chart.

Measurement data after 4 months by Viktor Lantos, on Flickr

So i would go the manual way in the first 2 months and then put it on a pH computer.

 

[JAX3000]

Can anybody recommend a good book to help us newbies with the basics please?

I know there's allot of conflicting info out there, so my big worry would be reading a book and forming a basic starting point from which to learn, only to later find that half of it was inaccurate or outdated...