Iron deficiency and which chelator do I need?

[ceg4048]

What about the floating plants @ceg4048 ? It seems logical to me to fix the issue thats showing up with the non CO2 limited floaters before one starts tackling any algae issues. Of course you could do both at the same time but you cant discount those white floating plants as a problem too.

Hi Hufsa,
Honestly I can't really see anything wrong with the floaters in post 15, but choosing between solving a trace problem, if it exists, and a CO2 problem - well, I always choose to tackle CO2. I mean, really, it there is a shortage of trace then just add more trace. That is so simple. I never worry about traces and I never have trace problems. All this hand wringing about Iron. I never even bother to worry about what chelator I'm using. Whatever I have is good enough. Seriously, I can't even remember when was the last time I had an Iron deficiency.

On the other hand, look at the devastation being caused by the algae. That'll not be easy to fix as just adding more CO2.

Cheers,

 

[Beaker]

I did a PH profile. Without CO2 my ph hovers around 7.9 and it drops to 6.5 from when the lights turn on to when the lights turn off. After I got the co2 to 6.5 the whole photo period, the HC cuba exploded and looked very healthy. That is when I started having the white plants show up. I can try to start increasing co2 but every time I do, the fish start to gasp.

I have been adding more trace and it doesn't seem to help.

I use tap water and we have a whole house salt free water softener. Could that cause the Mg to be unavailable to the plants causing the whiteness? The water softener is new within the last couple of months. I haven't been able to find much information about softeners and planted tanks.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I use tap water and we have a whole house salt free water softener. Could that cause the Mg to be unavailable to the plants causing the whiteness?

It could be, but it would depend how the water softener works.

I can't really see anything wrong with the floaters in post 15

what about the floating plants @ceg4048 ? It seems logical to me to fix the issue thats showing up with the non CO2 limited floaters

The Spirodela polyrhiza are definitely chlorotic, the question would be whether that paleness effects the older or the newer leaves.

cheers Darrel

 

[Beaker]

It is the newer leaves. I see the new leaves coming in white

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It is the newer leaves. I see the new leaves coming in white

That is what we need to know. It is an iron (Fe), or just possibly manganese (Mn), deficiency. They are elements that <"are immobile within the plant">, so it can't import them to new leaves, and that is where you see the chlorosis deficiency symptoms.

I don't know which iron chelators are available to you in the USA, but you would ideally want FeEDDHA or FeDTPA in harder water. It won't be to every-ones taste, but if I was having issues I would use FeEDDHA and the <"pink tint"> method.

Plants don't need a lot of manganese, and most manganese compounds are soluble, so that is less likely as an issue. In the UK you can buy <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> which adds iron, manganese and magnesium (Mg) to cover all bases. My guess would be something similar will be available for you.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

All forms of chelates are available here in the US. I add DTPA to my CSM+B for good measure.

 

[ceg4048]

I did a PH profile. Without CO2 my ph hovers around 7.9 and it drops to 6.5 from when the lights turn on to when the lights turn off. After I got the co2 to 6.5 the whole photo period, the HC cuba exploded and looked very healthy. That is when I started having the white plants show up. I can try to start increasing co2 but every time I do, the fish start to gasp.

I have been adding more trace and it doesn't seem to help.

I use tap water and we have a whole house salt free water softener. Could that cause the Mg to be unavailable to the plants causing the whiteness? The water softener is new within the last couple of months. I haven't been able to find much information about softeners and planted tanks.

OK, so as always, when your CO2 profile is good but the fish suffer hypercapnia then that means your flow/distribution is in question.
This is the area you'll need to tackle. It's very likely that when you fix your flow/distribution then you'll also fix whatever nutrient problems you have.
Again, I would forget about unavailable Mg. None of those speculations are valid. I'm not familiar with your salt-free softener. The only ways I'm aware of are the resin based units that use either the Sodium Chloride or Potassium Chloride salts, or the Reverse Osmosis systems. If you use a different method then perhaps you can explain what the mechanism is.
In any case, once the water is in the tank then it's isolated and adding Fe and Mg or whatever nutrients will solve that problem.

I haven't see any photos of how you are distributing the flow or any description of your filtration/pumps. We can have a look at that and determine if some improvements can be made.

Cheers,

 

[Beaker]

I have a biomaster 250 filter with a inline atomizer. My hc cuba is growing great. It is growing super fast and looks very healthy so I really don't think I have a CO2 issue because hc cuba needs lots of co2. My rotala also stunts when the CO2 has issues but all the tops look healthy except for the color. My faster growing plants are the only ones with white leaves. The hair algae is mostly all but gone except in the hairgrass. That is also disappearing as I take it out. (the algae on the rocks is green spot algae that doesn't seem to be coming back. I just can't get to it with my brush.) The only algae I have that is growing and not going away is cladophora.

I tried EDDHA iron for 2 weeks with no effect. I thought maybe that the floaters might be hogging all the nutrients so I took them out. The plants seemed to perk up for a little bit and they look better now but they are still not looking great.

I am finding that I will change one thing and the plants start to do better then the growth slows down after 2 weeks and the white leaves so up in force. So I feel like the thing causing the white leaves might be the limiting factor. I am also noticing that leaves are starting to get holes in them. You can see where the snails have eaten from the inside to the outside leaving an outline of the leaf.

 

[Hufsa]

You should give any changes you do, at least 4 weeks to show their effects, ideally 6 or more. 2 weeks is too short imo.

 

[Beaker]

I'm really confused. My iron deficiency is disappearing and I don't know why.

I didn't realize that my auto doser got turned of. I don't know how long it was off but the iron deficiency got worse. Everything was showing pale new growth.

I turned it back on and left it alone for a couple of weeks without any change to the dosing. Everything is looking much happier and is growing really well.

The only thing that changed was I stopped changing the water once a week. I got really lazy and now I only do 25% water changes every 3 weeks or so.

Could it be the water changes?

I have no algae and everything looks like it is improving and is better than it has ever been.

I don't know why less water changes would make things better. I have 300 par in places and everything I read says more water changes is normally better for highlight setups.

 

[Happi]

I have a biomaster 250 filter with a inline atomizer. My hc cuba is growing great. It is growing super fast and looks very healthy so I really don't think I have a CO2 issue because hc cuba needs lots of co2. My rotala also stunts when the CO2 has issues but all the tops look healthy except for the color. My faster growing plants are the only ones with white leaves. The hair algae is mostly all but gone except in the hairgrass. That is also disappearing as I take it out. (the algae on the rocks is green spot algae that doesn't seem to be coming back. I just can't get to it with my brush.) The only algae I have that is growing and not going away is cladophora.

I tried EDDHA iron for 2 weeks with no effect. I thought maybe that the floaters might be hogging all the nutrients so I took them out. The plants seemed to perk up for a little bit and they look better now but they are still not looking great.

I am finding that I will change one thing and the plants start to do better then the growth slows down after 2 weeks and the white leaves so up in force. So I feel like the thing causing the white leaves might be the limiting factor. I am also noticing that leaves are starting to get holes in them. You can see where the snails have eaten from the inside to the outside leaving an outline of the leaf.
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I would try different source of Trace and Fe if you were using CSM+B, I have gathered a data for similar situation and similar problems with the plants when using csm+b from others and my own experience. Not everyone had this issue, but those who had it, they switched the csm+b with something else, most did DIY and achieved good results. This is not the co2 related issue at all. Some nutrients does prectipate more than the others, while some are quite stable. Fe and Mn are prectipated more often than the others, people believe their plants are using it but that is not the case. DTPA Fe is quite stable even under high lights, the uv light will have more impact on the degradation compared to the other light coming from your fixture. Iron is also used by algae and it also depends on how well the algae can use it. I use to run 0.1 ppm Fe weekly with 6 39watts bulbs, see my profile picture, here's another picture:

 

[Zeus.]

I didn't realize that my auto doser got turned of. I don't know how long it was off but the iron deficiency got worse. Everything was showing pale new growth.

Which makes sense as tank wasn't getting Fe - as well as other nutrients.

I turned it back on and left it alone for a couple of weeks without any change to the dosing. Everything is looking much happier and is growing really well.

So everything got better - so it was the lack of ferts

The only thing that changed was I stopped changing the water once a week. I got really lazy and now I only do 25% water changes every 3 weeks or so.

Could it be the water changes?

No, it was coincidence that you didn't do the WCs, I would keep up with the WCs preferably every week, as not doing them is like a time bomb.

If plants looking better so no need for a different Fe chelate IMO either

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I didn't realize that my auto doser got turned of. I don't know how long it was off but the iron deficiency got worse. Everything was showing pale new growth.

I turned it back on and left it alone for a couple of weeks without any change to the dosing. Everything is looking much happier and is growing really well.

Same as @Zeus., my guess is that the autodoser was off for long enough for iron deficiencies to appear.

Because iron isn't mobile within the plant it takes a while for deficiency to show, and then another <"lag period until the plants improve">, once plant available iron (Fe++(+)) ions have been restored.

I've now adopted a <"hybrid Duckweed Index"> approach. This is because once the Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) shows <"iron deficiency symptoms"> it takes a while for new non-deficient leaves to grow again. I need green leaves for the <"visual aspect of the "Duckweed Index" to work">.

Have a look at <"Frogbit taken a turn"> for a complete cycle from deficient to healthy again. Also apologies to @jameson_uk, as I keep referring to his posts. I'm sure he won't mind me saying that he is <"red-green colour blind">, which makes assessing levels of greenness a lot trickier for him, but has provided us with some lovely threads for iron deficiency problems.

cheers Darrel