Help: Improving My Tank

[Eugine Thomas]

All you control is light intensity (read from data sheet) and how long for. Done.

What data sheet? I missed that one! Eek.

There is, you can roll your own CO2 and ferts dosing but how you determine it is working and levels are correct is very hard, as when you get algae and dead plants it is all too late. You will not have access to the laboratory grade test equipment to measure ferts and CO2, thus cannot determine your uptakes, thus you can't determine your required dosing, your required CO2 levels, frequency of water changes etc etc all getting very difficult for something that has been devised to be simple.

EI was all devised to keep it simple, no need to accurately measure salts, just bung it in, guaranteed enough ferts for the plants regardless of light level. Done.

As for CO2 set to 30ppm, enough for most "high" light levels and fish. Done.

All you control is light intensity (read from data sheet) and how long for. Done.

EI and 30ppm CO2 will cope with a range of light levels, I started with just T8's moving to T5's and still dose and use same level CO2.

So in summary, you can roll your own fert dosing and CO2 dosing, but I absolutely guarantee you will have issues. Been there done that, got the T-shirt and the corresponding algae.

If you really insist on going it alone, which from your posts I suspect you will, you can mix your own drop checker solution using less the 4dKH strength solution (add distilled to 4kDH) so that it goes green/yellow at 20ppm rather than 30ppm. Also use only 0.7pH drop if doing it via pH dropping. You can obviously dose less than EI doses, but again how much...who knows. And again you can have lower light levels, but without a PAR meter to measure the levels...who knows.

Okay; so I stick to the book and play it safe. What will I get from two T8s (with reflectors) that are switched on for 16 hours?

 

[ian_m]

What will I get from two T8s (with reflectors) that are switched on for 16 hours?

Algae at that length of time.....

When I first went high tech I had two T8 (total 50W over 180l) on for 4 hours and twisted the reflectors round to lower the tank light levels and still got diatoms and some algae all symptoms of too much light for CO2 level. Slowly over first couple of months turned reflectors back to increase light level (and get CO2 right via inline diffuser) and suffered no more algae. Moved to T5 tubes after about 2 years and did get algae due to jump increase in light, forgot all about lowering light by not fitting reflectors etc , but did start runing for 4 hours only. All sorted now and under control, nearly 3 years later, can cope with lights on for 6 hours or more. CO2 delivery mastery took most of that time.

 

[Another Phil]

I understand, but: is that not a high volume of water? How do fish survive in a high-tech aquarium?

Hi Eugene,
Coincidentally I measured how long it took bits of flake to flow along my tank last night (guessed/calculated rather than measured😉), and with my 4x volume turnover per hour my flow speed at substrate level is only about 250m/hr, obviously faster in front of the spraybar, but a lot less than I was expecting, and if an outdoor stream I'd take that as being almost still (and would make for a very slow game of Pooh sticks)..
cheers phil

 

[Eugine Thomas]

Algae at that length of time.....

Ehh? I don't understand: if I'm dosing Ei properly, 30 pp of carbon dioxide, etc., how can I have algae with low-lights? I though people were using 5 WPG for 8 hours or so, right? My lights would be switched on for double what most people would have them switched on for, but, on average, I'd only being putting 2/5 of the energy in at any given time, so, what's that, roughly, let's say "4 WPG-equivalent", right? I'm confused (again): this is fun.

When I first went high tech I had two T8 (total 50W over 180l) on for 4 hours and twisted the reflectors round to lower the tank light levels and still got diatoms and some algae all symptoms of too much light for CO2 level. Slowly over first couple of months turned reflectors back to increase light level (and get CO2 right via inline diffuser) and suffered no more algae.

Did you not just say that there's no point in adding carbon dioxide and following EI dosing if you have low-lights: is four hours of light from T8s not classed as low-light?

 

[Edvet]

2 WPG is considerered in the high light realm already.
16 hours is a very long time and would only be sustainable in a very low light tank, plants will be using up the nutrients and run into trouble. Most tanks run in the region of 6-8 hours.

This is the table we point to mostly, lightoutput is measured in PAR mostly nowadays, just interpret your lights and distance

 

[Eugine Thomas]

Hi Eugene,
Coincidentally I measured how long it took bits of flake to flow along my tank last night (guessed/calculated rather than measured😉), and with my 4x volume turnover per hour my flow speed at substrate level is only about 250m/hr, obviously faster in front of the spraybar, but a lot less than I was expecting, and if an outdoor stream I'd take that as being almost still (and would make for a very slow game of Pooh sticks)..
cheers phil

Yeah, I guess so; just looks like a-hell-of-a-lot when it comes out of the hose like that...like a horse, if you know what I mean. I'm still holding my credit card back from buying the FX-6: so unbelievably scared.

 

[Eugine Thomas]

2 WPG is considerered in the high light realm already.
16 hours is a very long time and would only be sustainable in a very low light tank, plants will be using up the nutrients and run into trouble. Most tanks run in the region of 6-8 hours.

I was told that 1-2 WPG was low-light and that 3-5 WPG was high-light: so I've enough juice in the system?

...well how do people manage to use all 5 WPG on a high-tech tank (without algae)? Do they dose nutrients twice a day; leave their lights on for three or four hours, only; what about CO₂?

 

[ian_m]

is four hours of light from T8s not classed as low-light?

No depends on height.

The chart below from http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774 is a rough handy guide to light level. Notice it only has T8 with no reflector, so T8 with reflector (double maybe) is moving into medium light at least.

 

[ian_m]

...well how do people manage to use all 5 WPG on a high-tech tank (without algae)? Do they dose nutrients twice a day; leave their lights on for three or four hours, only; what about CO₂?

No they have taken months and months to get their tank running algae free at those light levels. They dose standard EI and 30ppm CO2. I think Tom Barr even runs at lower CO2 levels and quite high light.

If you just place a plant from a low light tank (or from the shop) straight into these light levels, it will instantly melt away as its chemical processes are not adjusted to cope with the increased light levels. Same as if you move the other way high light to low light it will melt away.

This is all the "high tech tank documentation" about bringing the light levels up slowly so the plant can adjust to its new light levels. As I said when I moved T8 to T5 tubes, despite lowering light on time to only 4hours, I suffered algae and plant melting as the plants got vaporised by the massive increase in light, despite CO2 & ferts being spot on. Now the plants have adjusted, I have the light on 8 hours and plants are monsterously growing no (significant) algae.

It took me nearly 3 years to get to this stage....

 

[Wallace]

I'm still holding my credit card back from buying the FX-6: so unbelievably scared.

Just a quick note before you go ahead and click on the buy button, if you have a Maidenhead Aquatics near you they should price match any price on the net. This is what I done when I bought my FX6, and it only cost me £194.99, saving me between £35-£50 depending on where you looked. That was a price match to Amazon.

Also, you can buy a Tetratec EX2400 spraybar kit and that will fit the pipework of the FX6. That is what I have done for my 5 x 2 x 2ft tank and the flow is very good.

That should give you something to think about, oh yeah and the FX6 is an amazing filter.


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[Eugine Thomas]

No depends on height.

The chart below from http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774 is a rough handy guide to light level. Notice it only has T8 with no reflector, so T8 with reflector (double maybe) is moving into medium light at least.

Yeah, I'd say mid-medium; just short of high-light (it's 15 inches from where my lights are to the top of the substrate). I think that if I were to leave one light on (with a reflector) for 16 hours I probably be just inside the high-light zone; switch the other light on for 8 hours (with the reflector), and I'd be scraping the roof. I don't think I need new lights; however, I really like the idea of having my lights on all day rather than just for eight hours. I'd rather switch off a bulb and dim the remaining light (rather than have two bulbs on for a shorter time): more hours to look at my fish.

Thanks!

 

[Eugine Thomas]

No they have taken months and months to get their tank running algae free at those light levels. They dose standard EI and 30ppm CO2. I think Tom Barr even runs at lower CO2 levels and quite high light.

If you just place a plant from a low light tank (or from the shop) straight into these light levels, it will instantly melt away as its chemical processes are not adjusted to cope with the increased light levels. Same as if you move the other way high light to low light it will melt away.

This is all the "high tech tank documentation" about bringing the light levels up slowly so the plant can adjust to its new light levels. As I said when I moved T8 to T5 tubes, despite lowering light on time to only 4hours, I suffered algae and plant melting as the plants got vaporised by the massive increase in light, despite CO2 & ferts being spot on. Now the plants have adjusted, I have the light on 8 hours and plants are monsterously growing no (significant) algae.

Wow. It's like the "bends"? So how do people add new plants to such a tank? I guess they don't: they'll have to get the planting right first time around, right?

 

[Eugine Thomas]

That was a price match to Amazon.

Why didn't you just buy it through Amazon? Customer service (or lack of)?

Also, you can buy a Tetratec EX2400 spraybar kit and that will fit the pipework of the FX6.

Is there any chance you could give me the diameter of the piping (I'll need to drill a few holes in my lid because there's no way the piping will fit inside the inlet/outlet holes that the lid was designed for)?

Also, you can buy a Tetratec EX2400 spraybar kit and that will fit the pipework of the FX6.

Cheers; that's very handy. Thanks.

That is what I have done for my 5 x 2 x 2ft tank

My tank is only 150 l!

 

[Eugine Thomas]

It took me nearly 3 years to get to this stage....

I guess that time's including your "mistake time", too? Yes? Trials and errors?

So how slowly do you increase the light? How long would it take a pro to get things up and running from scratch?

 

[Wallace]

Why didn't you just buy it through Amazon? Customer service (or lack of)?

Delivery charge and time, and as I was going to MA anyway it made sense. Also it's easier to go to a bricks and mortar store to sort out any problems if the filter was faulty etc

Is there any chance you could give me the diameter of the piping (I'll need to drill a few holes in my lid because there's no way the piping will fit inside the inlet/outlet holes that the lid was designed for)?

The pipework is 25mm

My tank is only 150 l!

Ooops I misread the dimensions as 4 x 2 x 2. You can always turn the filter down if need be.



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[Eugine Thomas]

This really has been a on going experiment with lots of failures and changes but I'm starting to refine it.

I'm so glad I have the opportunity to learn from other people's mistakes/challenges, as you say: I would have had absolutely no chance of being successful without the help of people like you. It may be hard to accept but I already can't remember a time before I was a member of this forum: the old days just don't make sense to my brain any more.

 

[Eugine Thomas]

The pipework is 25mm

It'll be tight, but I can make that work. Cheers!

Also it's easier to go to a bricks and mortar store to sort out any problems if the filter was faulty etc

Amen.

You can always turn the filter down if need be.

How much can the filter be turned down?

 

[ian_m]

So how do people add new plants to such a tank? I guess they don't: they'll have to get the planting right first time around, right

Correct. Either shade them a bit, get them from better suppliers whose plants appear to cope or do as I do, reduce light after planting for first week or two and trim the occasional melted bits. After then its back to full power T5 for 5-6hours, yellow drop checker, auto dosed EI and weekly water changes.

I guess that time's including your "mistake time", too? Yes? Trials and errors

Mostly by being 100% convinced that I did not have a CO2 leak and all my plant & algae issues were due to something else. CO2 is very very hard to get right, but in the end regardless of all the equipment the plants are the best indicator. The "Pros" as you keep calling them, generally due to experience, and kit they love and know, get the CO2 levels and distribution correct from day one. Once CO2 rate and distribution is cracked, plant grow like crazy and completely algae free (actually not true, got some spots of green on front glass as not done a water change to 2 weeks due to being busy).

So how slowly do you increase the light? How long would it take a pro to get things up and running from scratch?

You buy lights that are dimmable (eg TMC tiles), so you start them on say 15% for first week or two, then start ramping up. Remember most of the most wonderful photos taken on this site are taken with lights on 100% (and equipment removed from the tank) just for the photo. Typically day to day may only run at 50% light or less. You dim your T8 lights, by rotating the reflector around to block the light or put darkened plastic sheet in the way or put foil strips around the tubes and generally start at say 4hours a day and ramp up hours (and remove blocks) over first couple of months allowing plants to adjust.

 

[Wallace]

How much can the filter be turned down?

I couldn't tell you to be honest, I had mine running at about 60% (judging by the notches on the valves) for about a month after setting the tank up as my fish didn't like the strong flow, and slowly increased it 10% ( 1 notch ) week on week.

What this notches equate to in LPH I honestly don't know as I didn't measure it. At a guess I'd say each notch on the valves loosely represents 300-350 LPH judging by Fluval claiming 3500 LPH flow.



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[Eugine Thomas]

After then its back to full power T5 for 5-6hours, yellow drop checker, auto dosed EI and weekly water changes.

Geez, you've got it down! So confident.

You buy lights that are dimmable (eg TMC tiles), so you start them on say 15% for first week or two, then start ramping up.

I don't have a dimmer switch: could I get away with slowly extending the time my lights are on with my digital timer? I know it's a bit laborious, but could I, let's say, turn on the second bulb at 12 noon for 15 minutes, and then slowly extend that period by 15 minutes a day, each day, until I reach wherever I need to be?