Forests Underwater by Takashi Amano at Lisbon Oceanarium

[zozo]

Thanks for those pics, always nice to be able to have a glans of whats behind all of it.. 🙂 Indeed water changes, you would like to think it needs 25% a week too, like what is always and all over advised. I rather think they have laboratory tests to find out when and if it's time for that. What baffles me the most is that this is only temporary.. What a waste..

 

[LondonDragon]

What baffles me the most is that this is only temporary.. What a waste..

It was always going to be a 3 year project, but speaking to someone from management they claim if it still popular it will be extended further.

This was more of an experiment for the Oceanarium, usually an aquarium as a main attraction, a creature that attracts the crowds and this was new for them as it does not have any creatures to attract the crowds, so it was a little of the unknown for them and they were not even sure it would attract any crowd, during the conversation he mentioned someone mentioned there were 50k people interested in aquascaping/aquariums in Portugal, but they would need those 50k to visit every month 😉
But just over a year later and almost a million visits it has turned out to be more popular than expected, so as long its attracting the crowds I am sure they will keep it going for at least another year or two.

What they seem to be missing out is offering tickets just to visit the temporary exhibition, they only sell the tickets as an addon to the main marine section, which for me I am not interested in seeing again but still have to pay for it.

 

[zozo]

This is such an unique concept i'm rather under the impression it can serve as a main attraction as well. In a way i can't imagine it loosing popularity.. If it does it probaly is as you say, they steering towards that themselfs with that ticket policy. Would be such a shame to see this torn apart again.. It also would be disrespectful to Mr Amano's life phylosophy, bringing people closer to nature show them the beauty and stand still at it for once and understand it worth to preserve it.. With tearing this down this will slowly slip away again into oblivion. They underestimate the importancy of all this with classifying it as temporary.. Like it's unimportant or just not important enough.

 

[LondonDragon]

It also would be disrespectful to Mr Amano's life phylosophy, bringing people closer to nature show them the beauty and stand still at it for once and understand it worth to preserve it.. With tearing this down this will slowly slip away again into oblivion. They underestimate the importancy of all this with classifying it as temporary..

I don't agree with this talk about being disrespectful, it was never intended to be permanent in the first place, a business needs to make money, and if an exhibition is not making money then you need to bring something else in to generate that capital again. Just the way it goes, if people want to keep it going then everyone needs to visit simple 😉 book your tickets!

 

[zozo]

From a business standpoint of view you're absolutely correct.. 🙂 I know how business works, like having less profit the next year is always considered loss and a reason to fire employees without remorse.. Tho it is a falsety considering less profit as a loss, but that;s the way it is.. That's business..

Even tho it probably is completely out of my reach to ever visit it, it still feel sorry with the thought that it one day will vanish into peoples memory only. It deserves much more respect.. All i'm saying.. 🙂

 

[rebel]

I doubt I will be lucky enough to visit but I may get a chance next year in June. I might be in Spain for a visit so not too far I guess....

 

[LondonDragon]

That UV unit at first looked like RO unit. So many pipes. I guess they use those thin pipes to feed UV with small and slow flow of water?

Forgot to reply to this one, was told they were UV, but I see where you coming from due to the pipes to the middle unit.

I doubt I will be lucky enough to visit but I may get a chance next year in June. I might be in Spain for a visit so not too far I guess....

Depends where in Spain 😉 I visit family in Lisbon every summer so while its there I plan to visit every year.

 

[Alexander Belchenko]

Forgot to reply to this one, was told they were UV, but I see where you coming from due to the pipes to the middle unit.

The middle unit probably is some sort of electric equipment to feed big UV lamps with power. Looking at it longer I think I mistakenly decided those pipes but they're actually wires. Oh my, all that equipement is overwhelming.
CO2 venturi? Still don't get how it supposed to work. OMG

 

[zozo]

CO2 venturi? Still don't get how it supposed to work. OMG

It's a natural proces, there is a bottleneck created in the pipe towards the filter outlet.. Then because of the pipe diameter getting smaller there is a pressure buildup.. In this narrow bottleneck is the co2 injected, probably with a difuser, behind the bottleneck the pipes diamter gets wider again, this creates a sudden presure drop.. This pressure drop helps the already shredded co2 getting sucked into the water mass even more.. Seeing the picture it aint a complete professional diffuser installation. What is shown is a simple co2 regulator connected via cupper pipes to 3 flow meters, each flow meter runs probably to it's own difuser behind one of the 3 sumps (filter outlets).

That venture works in principle the same as those powerheads where you can connect an tube and then they create a stream of tiny airbubbles.. This is also a ventury working with presure drop to get the air into the stream. 🙂

It's awfully simple but very effective.. Seeing the pumps they use, there is quite some pressure buildup possible.. So in small scale aquariums it would not work as sufficient because the lak of pressure. 🙂

 

[zozo]

Maybe this will help to understand beter, it is awfully simple.. 🙂 Only the picture of the actual ventury is unfortunately missing.. But it must in diagram be something like this.


A gasoline carburator does exactly the same to diffuse the gasoline into the air more sufficiently before it's sucked into the combustion chamber. It's a very old and effective principle. 🙂

 

[webworm]

I doubt that you'll see any compression of water in a typical industrial water plant. At 40MPa (equivalent of 40KM depth) you get 1.8% compression.
For more details see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Compressibility

 

[zozo]

I doubt that you'll see any compression of water in a typical industrial water plant. At 40MPa (equivalent of 40KM depth) you get 1.8% compression.
For more details see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Compressibility

It's anyway the presure drop and probablt the vortex created behind the venturi making the co2 disperse even more into the water.. I only tried to simplify it a bit to explain the process.. 😉 I don't think explaining it with every factual detail and a lot of mathematical formulas and physical propperties of mediums makes it any easier to understand for people who don't know the concept in the first place. Sorry for not beeing 100% correct and beeing misguiding in the explaination of pressure buildup vs pressure release. Tho even if the compresson is 1/100000 it still is.. 🙂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It's anyway the pressure drop and probably the vortex created behind the venturi making the co2 disperse even more into the water.

I think it is just the flow speed, the faster flow speed through the restricted section causes a drop in pressure (energy is conserved, kinetic energy has increased, so the pressure must fall) and the CO2 is sucked in to the flowing water. If the water has to flow any distance (before the tank) the CO2 will fully dissolve (because it has a high solubility in water).

cheers Darrel

 

[zozo]

Hi all,I think it is just the flow speed, the faster flow speed through the restricted section causes a drop in pressure (energy is conserved, kinetic energy has increased, so the pressure must fall) and the CO2 is sucked in to the flowing water. If the water has to flow any distance (before the tank) the CO2 will fully dissolve (because it has a high solubility in water).

cheers Darrel

Could be, i was just anticipating with an educated guess on the explaination given to Jurijs at the build of this project. And he again quoted it at a podcast what was explained to him. How ever it realy works isn't maybe not so important.. But is seems to be highly efficient.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22209441

Made me wonder if it is so much more efficient why the standard inline difusers in the aquarium trade are not constructed with a venturi? So that gave me a hunch it could be because of the lak of pressure power in small aquarium pumps. But bottom line i do not realy know and confused myself about what i still remeber from wath i learned in the past. All to long ago for me to start a yes/no discussion about it i would need to look up a lot of stuff again to realise i'm made a fool out of myself with saying to much bs. 🙄

Comming to think of it and scrutinizing the consruction of such an air venturi i got left from an old powerhead, i might give it a go and try to build a small one myself just to see how it performs compaired to my standerd inline difuser i'm using now. 🙂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Made me wonder if it is so much more efficient why the standard inline difusers in the aquarium trade are not constructed with a venturi?

I wonder if it is just to do with storage of the gas. It wouldn't work for pressurised gases, because they would just vent straight through the venturi pipe into the tank in a "tank dump".

I run a venturi on a relatively small through-put pump, and it seems pretty efficient, but it sucks in air from the inexhaustible reservoir of the atmosphere. From <"Personal experience....">.



cheers Darrel

 

[Alexander Belchenko]

@zozo thank you for explanation, I thought I knew something about venturi, but never expected it to be used for CO2. Also, on the photo I see only presurre reductors with solenoids to cut off the CO2 supply, and no actual venturi, that's why I was confused. So it should feed actual ventrui system somewhere at the output side of the pump to the tank, I guess. Probably I should have really been there to see all that machine room by myself to understand how it all interconnected and works as the whole.

 

[zozo]

I wonder if it is just to do with storage of the gas. It wouldn't work for pressurised gases, because they would just vent straight through the venturi pipe into the tank in a "tank dump".

I'm not sure what you're pointing at with this? You mean a Co2 tank dump?..

I was more thinking of placing a venturi in an existing inline co2 difuser.. Then all it does is affecting the flow of the water.. With or without venturi the rest of the co2 part stays unchanged. If the theory is correct and the venturi is placed at it's proper possition the already difused co2 should be disolved/difused even more efficiently behind a venturi.. As stated in the link from my previous post it already is much more effective at 24 l/h flow speed.

Placing the venturi aint such a big deal i think already found a suitable candidate to give it a go.. That cheapo Mufan just might do the job. It's completely demountable into seperate parts.

This thing does as is constructed now the oposite of what a venturi does. And placing one in front of the difuser, only need a pump able to push it so the flow rate in the tank isn't to much negatively affected. I'll be off testing some ideas.. And not afraid to admit if it fails.. I learned to walk with falling down, i can take a punch.. 🙂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I've got access to the full text of the paper Marcel highlighted.


Fig. 2.

The schematic diagram of experimental facilities used for carbonation of pond water. (1) Raceway open pond; (2) pump; (3) air diffuser; (4) venturi; (5) CO2 flowmeter; (6) CO2-air pressure cylinder; (7) water inlet; (8) water outlet; (9) sample collecting location.

cheers Darrel

 

[zozo]

Hi all,
I've got access to the full text of the paper Marcel highlighted.


Fig. 2.

The schematic diagram of experimental facilities used for carbonation of pond water. (1) Raceway open pond; (2) pump; (3) air diffuser; (4) venturi; (5) CO2 flowmeter; (6) CO2-air pressure cylinder; (7) water inlet; (8) water outlet; (9) sample collecting location.
cheers Darrel

Interesting, thanx.. So regarding the diagram they difuse co2 and air at the same time? In schematic it doesn't make sense to me right now in how its practicaly build, i would need to see the real installation i guess. Or is it they use an air difuser to difuse the co2 after all they are both gasses? Looks to me 3 and 4 must be buildin into one device.

 

[zozo]

OMg now you got me goin.. 🙄 But it all is very simple if you ask me and i'm about 99% sure it has to work.. If you look at such an air difuser darrel points to, it is one such as this.



This works with the force of nature, the venturi creates a pressure drop or an up speed in flow whatever (not that important to me right now) at the left hand side, this makes air sucked into from the atmosphere instead of water being sprayed out. Now this venturi is about going from 16mm to 10mm back to 19 mm where the air is sucked in. There is a cross shaped septum placed at the 16 mm section in front of the venturi, this will also reduce and scater the water flow, probably also to create some vortex and make the water go wild behind it. The air which is sucked in behind the venturi gets scatered into little tiny bubbles and difused even more along the way. That's all it takes to difuse air with a venturi, as long as water flows it works and doesn't spill a drop of water. 🙂

An educated guess, if you push through presurized co2 instead of air, it doesn't need to be that much say for example 0.5 bar / 7 psi or even less it will get scatered and difused as well.

My theory says because i think it's only logical, that if there is a venturi close enough in front of an inline difuser, then already (Ceramicaly) difused co2 gets difused even more.