For the Start is dark and full of terrors

[Bence]

Since most of you asked flow and CO2 distribution.

I have a 2000 l/h and a 1000 l/h pump. flickr is not working right now, so here is a masterpainting.

Both pumps have a CO2 reactor on it. It looks like okay for me, but I'm not sure what to look for. I'll do a video later to show you what's happening.

 

[Edvet]

We could do with some video's. We want to see all the plants gently moving in the flow, in all parts of the tank
Backgrounds disturb flow that's why you generaly don't see them in "high tech' tanks
Large tanks are difficult to get sufficient flow ( See https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/olympus-is-calling-maxspect-gyres-fitted.43046/ for instance).

 

[Bence]

1. It is not uncommon for some plants to melt away when planted in new Aquasoil Amazonia.I have had it with foreground plants(Staurogine, HC cuba,Pogostemon helferi....) mainly.I think is sth to do with initial tank imbalance and I resolved it with increasing oxygen levels at lights out by adding air stones on timers when lights are off.

I've red about oxygenating before, so I added some tubing during hardscaping. I will setup my air pump to do this.

2.That might be just the lamp spectrum some kelvin temperatures make green plants to appear yellow to the eye.
U have Amazonia(very nutrient rich) and U dose so your ferts are covered for deficiencies.

Not sure. Plants looked greener on the first few days. But yes, no deficiency symptoms besides melting.

3.Diatoms are not stubborn algae.Once plant mass is increased and plants are established will go away.Meanwhile its easy to rub it off glass and brush it off with toothbrush from stones to keep it in check.

hope dies last, and i have a lot of hope

4.Any plants that seem loose can be just pushed down.U dont need to rip all out and replant.

ok, but it seems I dont have to rip all out... they do it by themselves 🙂

5.Your Tank has quite a large footprint and it seems your flow is only arround 3000l/h wich is quite a low flow for 700+ liters high tech.The rule of thumb is 10x tank volume per hour.
Once plants grow in they will do most of the biological filtration but U need to make sure your flow is good for distribution of CO2 and nutrients as increase in plant mass also will restrict flow.

Frankly, the water volume is max. 500 liters or less. Huge backround, huge elevation, huge rocks. It seems to me the flow is going everywhere, every plant moving. Lotus moves too much in the middle, as more and bigger leaves grow. Not sure I can keep it.
But I can increase my second pump from 1000 to 2000 l/h. Do you think UV is needed here? That't the reason I decreased pump2 to 1000 l/h.

6.Starting with Amazonia is normally done with large 50% frequently done waterchanges.Everyother day may be enough for first few weeks but U need to change 50% + as minimum and then when U see good growth all arround switch to once weekly.

Maybe this was a mistake from me, than. This is what I thought and did regarding water change. Lot of guys said that I don't need daily wc because of the big volume. Every other day is enough. So I decided that I'll do daily, but only 160 l (as my RO container is that big). What do you suggest now about water change (i'm on day 19)?

7.For that size tank and those strong lights I dont know how much CO2 U are dissolving with intank diffuser.It is not one of the most effective metods.
How long before your lights on your CO2 is comming on.U need to achieve the lime green drop checker on lights on and staying that colour for the full lenght of photoperiod.Try to move it arround the tank to see if U have consistency in readings everywhere arround the tank.U can even as advised do a PH profile to get better idea.

Yep... it's two reactors. It seems they function properly. Although not 100%, sometimes they spit some bubbles. I turn on CO2 2 hours before lights on, turn off 0,5 h before lights off. PH profile coming soon.

8.Algae crew(Amano shrimp,Cherry shrimp , Otos,SAE ,snails😱)will help with algae but I will wait with that till U get the CO2 tuned up first.
And at least 6 weeks from the start as a minimum due to the Amazonia high Ammonia load.
Any particular reason why U use RO water?
Do U cut it with tap?

No livestock at the moment. I'll wait until the situation getting better.
In Hungary, most of the guys are obsessed with RO water... Can't tell you why. I have hard water gH 17.
Not mixing with tap.
What's your suggestion here? I would gladly leave out RO, if I could. Although I did a very convenient system. Everything is automated. Drain the water, fillng up, flushing the membranes. Only problem is I only have a 160 l container.

 

[Bence]

We could do with some video's. We want to see all the plants gently moving in the flow, in all parts of the tank
Backgrounds disturb flow that's why you generaly don't see them in "high tech' tanks
Large tanks are difficult to get sufficient flow ( See https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/olympus-is-calling-maxspect-gyres-fitted.43046/ for instance).

Hoi Edvet,

Video coming soon. Ja, the background is a mess. Dat kan ik niet take it out.
(ik was working with some guys from Holland, they thought me some words... jij hebt de strijkbout aan laten staan) 🙂

 

[Bence]

The start is the hardest bit.. It should get easier as the tank becomes established and the plants get larger. My first tank felt like a battle against algae to start with. It sounds like most of the things you are doing right.

If you don't have any fish I would be doing big cleaning sessions followed by 70 - 80 % water changes every other day.

Do you have a dimmer on the light? other option is to add some floating plants, you can pull them out in 3 months time when everything has settled down. You can also learn alot by there growth as there not limited by co2.

Flow rate will also have a big effect, is the co2 being transported to where its needed? can you put the drop checker near to the plants that are struggling?

Are you using 100% RO, I use to use 2/3rds RO 1/3 tap water. I'm not sure what the water is like in Hungary but if your filtering your own it makes water changes hard work. I was using it in the hope to breed fish.

Ps just double checking that your not running blue at night?

Hey Barbabra,

Thanks for your kind words! Much appreciated!

No dimmer available for metal halide lamps. All I can do is turn off one from the three.
Flow explained above, video coming soon.
RO explained in post no23. Maybe I will leave it or mix it with tap also as you do...
🙂 no, no blue led at night. that's just to amaze the family for a few secs.

 

[Edvet]

jij hebt de strijkbout aan laten staan

 

[Bence]

Hi Bence,
I agree with much of what Konsa mentions in his post. I too question why you are using RO water. It seems a lot of trouble for very little advantage, unless you intend to populate the tank with Soft water fish, but even so, it's not necessary.

Hey ceg! Thanks for showing up! Much appreciated!

It seems RO is not needed by all means. I was pushed by others to do it. I checked the local water facility website for the tap water parameters (not sure I translate it good):

total active chlorine - 0,25 mg/l
free active chlorine - <0,1 mg/l
pH - 7,6
conductivity (20 Celsius) - 475 µS/cm
nitrate ion - 8,5 mg/l
nitrite ion - <0,01 mg/l
ammonium - <0,02 mg/l
iron - <20 µg/l
manganese - <10 µg/l
total hardness (CaO3 mg/l) - 154 mg/l (i think this is gH 15,4. I measure a bit more gH 17)
calcium - 67 mg/l
magnesium - 26,1 mg/l
natrium - 17 mg/l
potassium - 2,6 mg/l
etc.

Do you think this should do?

Although I love the look of Metal Halide, 450 watts is a LOT to start off with. You are really inviting trouble by haaving so much light. That is the main reason for the algae.

What about turning off one lamp? I can position two lamps to light evenly the whole tank. So its 300 W.

I searched the thread and the images seem to suggest that you are using ADA Aquasoil? Is this new or are you re-using it from before? The best thing when using NEW Aquasoil is to put it in the tank with all lights OFF for about 3 weeks. Aquasoil is extremely rich in Ammonia and the buildup of the Ammonia over time can trigger algal blooms, especially in the presence of strong lighting.

Yes, ADA Amazonia. Totally new. Good advice to put it in water for 3 weeks... sadly my time machine is out of service at the moment. We should have spoken before. So, more water change?

If you do not reduce the lighting, and if you do not perform large weekly water changes, the diatomic and other algal blooms will continue to grow and it will be a LOT longer than 2 weeks for it to subside.

Teache me! So two lamps okay? Exactly what water change amount do you suggest?

Your filtration system seems very complicated to me and I'm not sure i understand the arrangement.
The 3rd picture in post #3 appears to be a chamber in which you have a pump? I can't see where you are diffusing the CO2, but you might try injecting the gas in that chamber.

I'll do a post about this later. Here the idea is the same as Hamburger Matten Filter. Large sponge surface, slow flow rate. I have 13 360 cm2 sponge surface and 3000 l/h flow. The pumps suctioning the water through the sponge prisms, than the water goes through the CO2 reactor, than to the tank. The filter chamber is the part of the tank. Post no. 21.

I also cannot see how your filter outlet to the tank is arranged, but you did manage to get nice growth in many of the plants, so maybe it's OK.

Video coming soon.

I disagree with any advice to get fish or other animals. They do not solve your basic problem and they make it very difficult to experiment or to make drastic changes because you always have to worry about their health. If you haven't already purchase animals I would suggest to leave them out for now.

no animals, I promise!

thanks for your great advices!

 

[Bence]

Never think this was a first planted, well done

Thank you!

 

[Konsa]

I've red about oxygenating before, so I added some tubing during hardscaping. I will setup my air pump to do this.



Not sure. Plants looked greener on the first few days. But yes, no deficiency symptoms besides melting.



hope dies last, and i have a lot of hope



ok, but it seems I dont have to rip all out... they do it by themselves 🙂



Frankly, the water volume is max. 500 liters or less. Huge backround, huge elevation, huge rocks. It seems to me the flow is going everywhere, every plant moving. Lotus moves too much in the middle, as more and bigger leaves grow. Not sure I can keep it.
But I can increase my second pump from 1000 to 2000 l/h. Do you think UV is needed here? That't the reason I decreased pump2 to 1000 l/h.



Maybe this was a mistake from me, than. This is what I thought and did regarding water change. Lot of guys said that I don't need daily wc because of the big volume. Every other day is enough. So I decided that I'll do daily, but only 160 l (as my RO container is that big). What do you suggest now about water change (i'm on day 19)?



Yep... it's two reactors. It seems they function properly. Although not 100%, sometimes they spit some bubbles. I turn on CO2 2 hours before lights on, turn off 0,5 h before lights off. PH profile coming soon.



No livestock at the moment. I'll wait until the situation getting better.
In Hungary, most of the guys are obsessed with RO water... Can't tell you why. I have hard water gH 17.
Not mixing with tap.
What's your suggestion here? I would gladly leave out RO, if I could. Although I did a very convenient system. Everything is automated. Drain the water, fillng up, flushing the membranes. Only problem is I only have a 160 l container.

Hi
Yes I firmly believe that added aeration does a lot of benefits in high tech tanks so its good to hear u have tubbing in place.
About plants seeming yellow is it may be Mg if U dont have it in your macro mix and U are on RO water.Mg is mobile element so if U add some epsom salt U should see them green up fairly quickly if Im right.
To have hope is good but just put some extra time in maintaining the tank to keep algae in check.It does go easier as tank matures.
The 10x flow rule is more as rule of thumb and its not needed to take actual volume of water U have in mind.Yes U have hardscape,background.... but also do U rhink U are getting the 2000l/h of your pumps.How often do U clean them sponges.I dont think U need UV in planted tank.Flow and distribution of nutrients is far more important so I will increase the second pump flow.
Ph profile will defo give U a lot of info regarding the CO2.
It is important to do large volume WC to take organics and algae spores out of tank.
You dont need very soft water for growing plants.If U lets say add 160l of ro and rest tap to get to 50% water volume U should still be ok.U can take readings after that to see what GH ,TDS and KH U are getting and adjust the ratio between tap and RO water.Looking at your water report I dont see any issues even if U mix 50:50.Lots of folks on here grow plants in hard water on its own without problems.Plants dont care much.Just some ferts(Iron for example) are a bit unstable when used in hard water but thats not difficult to get sorted by gettung products with different chelator that will suite your needs.
Its worth a go on removing one of the lights for now.It will defo help.
Souns like U have a good action plan in place too.
Keep us posted
Regards Konsa

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

total active chlorine - 0,25 mg/l
free active chlorine - <0,1 mg/l
pH - 7,6
conductivity (20 Celsius) - 475 µS/cm
nitrate ion - 8,5 mg/l
nitrite ion - <0,01 mg/l
ammonium - <0,02 mg/l
iron - <20 µg/l
manganese - <10 µg/l
total hardness (CaO3 mg/l) - 154 mg/l (i think this is gH 15,4. I measure a bit more gH 17)
calcium - 67 mg/l
magnesium - 26,1 mg/l
natrium - 17 mg/l
potassium - 2,6 mg/l

That is fine.

It is pretty much as good as you would get from a deep aquifer anywhere in Northern Europe, the only noteworthy thing is that your water has quite a lot of magnesium. The <"water is hard">, but it isn't extremely hard, and the low nitrate value (NO3) would suggest that it is unlikely to have much in the way of agricultural pollutants, or fertilizers, in it.

You can convert the hardness (CaCO3) into dKH/dGH via the Lenntech ("Hardness Convertor"), but it ~8.65 dGH/dKH (1dGH/dKH is equal to 17.85 (mg/L) ppm CaCO3).

You would also need to add the magnesium in for the dGH. I won't do the proper conversion ("1dGH = 0.178 mmol per litre of elemental calcium and/or magnesium ions") for magnesium (Mg) but that is near enough ~2.4dGH, so added together the dGH from your water report is ~11 dGH

There is also a slight difference between the CaCO3 and Ca levels (if all the Ca was from CaCO3, you would have 154 * 0.40 = 62 mg L-1 Ca, and you have 67) suggesting that there is probably a small amount of dissolved gypsum (CaSO4·2H2O) present as well, which would match with the magnesium, as they are both likely to be from an <"evaporite deposit">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Bence]

Hi all, That is fine.

It is pretty much as good as you would get from a deep aquifer anywhere in Northern Europe, the only noteworthy thing is that your water has quite a lot of magnesium. The <"water is hard">, but it isn't extremely hard, and the low nitrate value (NO3) would suggest that it is unlikely to have much in the way of agricultural pollutants, or fertilizers, in it.

You can convert the hardness (CaCO3) into dKH/dGH via the Lenntech ("Hardness Convertor"), but it ~8.65 dGH/dKH (1dGH/dKH is equal to 17.85 (mg/L) ppm CaCO3).

You would also need to add the magnesium in for the dGH. I won't do the proper conversion ("1dGH = 0.178 mmol per litre of elemental calcium and/or magnesium ions") for magnesium (Mg) but that is near enough ~2.4dGH, so added together the dGH from your water report is ~11 dGH

There is also a slight difference between the CaCO3 and Ca levels (if all the Ca was from CaCO3, you would have 154 * 0.40 = 62 mg L-1 Ca, and you have 67) suggesting that there is probably a small amount of dissolved gypsum (CaSO4·2H2O) present as well, which would match with the magnesium, as they are both likely to be from an <"evaporite deposit">.

cheers Darrel

thanks for the info
i did a quick Sera gH and kH test of the tap water
gH - 14
kH - 8

 

[Fred13]

First of all, i am really impressed of your work especially for a first time planted tank.
The other hobbyists above already mentioned the reasons that you are facing issues.

I focus on light and water changes.
Amazonia soil needs daily water changes to remove any ammonia buildup. Ofcourse , this isnt the easiest for a tank like yours but still , this is a crucial routine when using amazonia. Most of the hobbyists do massive daily water changes to avoid any algae blooms from ammonia.

And the light.. High lightning and ammonia is a catastrophic combination.
If i were you i would decrease the lightning intensity till things get stable and then i would start increasing it step by step.
I totally aggree with the other hobbyists to not take any fauna yet till your tank is free of ammonia.

With patience and a good routine things will get stable soon and the tank will shine. It is already pretty good.
Few bags of purigen may help now.

Fred

 

[ceg4048]

It seems RO is not needed by all means. I was pushed by others to do it. I checked the local water facility website for the tap water parameters (not sure I translate it good):

total active chlorine - 0,25 mg/l
free active chlorine - <0,1 mg/l
pH - 7,6
conductivity (20 Celsius) - 475 µS/cm
nitrate ion - 8,5 mg/l
nitrite ion - <0,01 mg/l
ammonium - <0,02 mg/l
iron - <20 µg/l
manganese - <10 µg/l
total hardness (CaO3 mg/l) - 154 mg/l (i think this is gH 15,4. I measure a bit more gH 17)
calcium - 67 mg/l
magnesium - 26,1 mg/l
natrium - 17 mg/l
potassium - 2,6 mg/l
etc.

Do you think this should do?

Yes, as Darrel mentions, this is fine. Really, the only reason for using RO is if your water supply contains high levels of pesticides or herbicudes. There are only a very small number of plants that might care about KH and none of them care about GH - unless the number is too low.. With RO water, all the numbers are near zero. GH is a combination of Calcium and Magnesium, so if you are experiencing an Mg shortage, then the main reason is because of using RO. You may still need to supplement Mg even when using tap water, but you will not have to supplement Calcium because most or all of your GH 14 will be Calcium. The use of RO has to do with fish, not plants. Many planted tank communities push RO as some sort of requirement, arguing that the plants are found in soft water estuaries, however, just because plants are found in soft water does not mean that they prefer soft water.

What about turning off one lamp? I can position two lamps to light evenly the whole tank. So its 300 W

Yes, definitely disable a lamp. This will slow the growth rate of the plants, but will also slow the growth rate of algae. You might also look at other ways to reduce the intensity such as elevating the lamps, putting something in between the lamps and the tank, such as thin sheets of wax paper, darkened acrylic or lots of floating plants (more difficult to keep evenly spaced though).

After the tank matures and when the plants have more vigor, they can withstand the higher intensity.

Yes, ADA Amazonia. Totally new. Good advice to put it in water for 3 weeks... sadly my time machine is out of service at the moment. We should have spoken before. So, more water change?

Yes, you might consider a 50% or more water change 2X-3X per week. If you delete the use of RO then this is a LOT easier to manage.

Both pumps have a CO2 reactor on it. It looks like okay for me, but I'm not sure what to look for. I'll do a video later to show you what's happening

OK, that's good news (you probably can use even stronger pumps if you can afford it), but the only thing I find objectionable is that it appears the pump outlets are facing each other? I don't think that's the best idea. Pump outlets, as much as possible, should all face in the same direction. That will help flow/distribution of the CO2.

Cheers,

 

[Bence]

Please, watch the video. I hope it explains the flow and distribution.
After your suggestions, I will make the action plan!

Frustrating camera movement until 4:00...

 

[DutchMuch]

Please, watch the video. I hope it explains the flow and distribution.
After your suggestions, I will make the action plan!

Frustrating camera movement until 4:00...

>"my first tank"
>better than my tanks progress in 4 years
>

 

[Bence]

>"my first tank"
>better than my tanks progress in 4 years
>

LOL! Thanks, mate!

 

[Bence]

in the meantime...

Let me tell you about my water change system.

I have a pump for this purpose in the filter chamber.

DSC_1288 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

The water goes directly into the drain. So no bucket is needed.

DSC_1284 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

Here comes the beauty. All my devices are controlled by smart switches (Sonoff). And all the switches are controlled by Amazon Alexa.

DSC_1281 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

So when I say: "Alexa, turn on suction!", the water goes down. And when I say: "Alexa, turn on filler!" - the pump in the RO container turns on and fills the tank. Or "Alexa, turn on water!" than tap water comes.

I know, RO water is not a must, but when I didn't know that, I did the following.
The smart switch can be programmed to turn on for an exact period of time (inching duration). You can tell the switch to turn on for X sec after receiving signal from Alexa, from the mobile app or manually. In this way you don't have to worry about the pump to drain all the water.

I counted, that 640 sec is exactly 160 liters. That's the size of my RO container. So I can precisely drain the amount needed.

 

[Bence]

And let me tell you about my RO system. (yeah, I learned it is not need for me)

I have two 75 GPD membrane in series. 1 / 1,5 good/bad water, nominal amount comes out (around 20 liter / hour).
I have a booster pump also. It is totally unnecessary. After buying it, I found out that I have 5 bar in the tap... don't make the same mistake! Measure before!

DSC_1277 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

The green container on the right is 160 liters. There is an overflow pipe on the top, just in case.
You can see a 12V solenoid on the tap. So it's open when I want. I can program it, I can tell Alexa to open it.

Flushing the membranes after use is important. It's easy with another solenoid insted of a manual valve!

Just use a smart switch for it!

DSC_1276 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

If you programmed the tap to open for example from 10.00 to 15.00, just program the flush solenoid to open at 14.55, and voila! Flushing done! No manual thing to do, and it's inexpensive.

 

[Bence]

Filter:

This is a DIY sponge prism filter system. Not really common I know. This is the first time I use it.

Here's how you make it.

Cut for yourself, or order the sponge prisms. Drill a 16 mm hole in the middle. (I don't know ho to diy, I ordered it.)
Cut the proper length 20 mm diameter pvc pipes.

DSC_1116 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

Drill holes on the pipe (water will go through these holes).

DSC_1118 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

Prepare the other pipes as well. Close the upper ends with a plug.

DSC_1120 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

Attach the pump and the sponges. Put it in the filter chamber behind the background. Done.

DSC_1127 by Bence Tóth, on Flickr

The mattenfilter principles are valid here also.
With this filter you will have a large sponge surface. For me it's 13.500 cm2. And a flow in the filter media below 5 cm/s. The pump will suck the water through the sponges, and a very good biological filtration will be available. I hope...

Calculation (if I remember correctly):
2 x 2000 l/h pump, 8 pcs 7x10x45 cm TM30 sponge prism. total 13.360 cm2 surface.

4 000 l/h pump x 1000/60 min = 66 666 (illuminati confirmed)
13 360 cm2 / 66 666 = 4,99 cm / min water flow


I have no experience in this. Some guys use this method and I liked it. Hope this will work.

 

[Konsa]

Hi
The filter looks good.I imagine will polish the water very well.Do not worry about how much surface for biological bacteria U have on them.The bacteria will colonise all surfaces of your tank.Most of your filtration will be carried out by your plants and the substrate arround them.Just keep the flow good.Do U know the sponges what ppi rating they have? How often do U have to clean them?
Regards Konsa