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Eradicate algae altogether from the tank - Theory

Hi all,
George wrote:
This is where the 1-2-GROW are advantageous in some situations, as regular shops can stock them for weeks at a time with no risk of algae and without the necessary expense of CO2-enriched, well-lit and filtered selling/holding tanks... The trade-off is that they're generally more expensive and relatively small."
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Yes that would make sense, the tissue culturing process needs to be aseptic or all sorts of things grow on the nutrient agar.

When I worked in the horticultural industry in the 1980's, tissue cultured plants were the next big thing. They have revolutionised some bits of the industry (that is where all the cheap Orchids have come from) and meant that "virus free" stock of many old cultivars of Strawberries, Carnations, Double Primroses etc. can be created and the bulked up really quickly.

Presumably Tropica already were using tissue culture to rapidly produce plants of their new Echinodorus cultivars etc. so it was a logical move. In fact a very quick look on Google produces this for Echinodorus 'Oriental' <http://192.38.244.204/article.asp?type=aquaristic&id=255>

The problems we had were with tissue cultured Roses. A lot of Roses won't grow from cuttings, so cultivars are usually produced by "T budding", that is taking a dormant bud from the rose cultivar you want to propagate (this is called the scion), and then placing it into a T shaped slot cut in the bark of a growing rose "stock", that is a rose seedling, (usually of a thornless strain of Rosa dumetorum "laxa" ). The trick is to get the cambial layers of the stock and scion to line up and them grow together (or "take") and then later you cut the head of the stock of just above the bud of the scion, this grows out giving you the rose you want on the root of the stock. As you can imagine this is quite an expensive and time consuming process, so tissue culture looked a really good proposition.

The problem with the Roses was weaning, we bought them in the agar blocks (like the Tropica 1-2 Grow ones), but most of them used to die in the months after potting into potting compost, so to reduce mortality the plants used to have to go into a shade tunnel with a fogging machine etc. and soon they worked out more expensive than the traditional method, so it was back to the budding.

I think the weaning problems should be lessened for the aquatics, but it will still be interesting to see how quickly the 1-2 GROW plants adapt, if it is a trouble free process and they grew away strongly they should stay algae free longer, but if the change in environment causes growth to drop off, presumably the algae will get a hold on any senescent leaves and that advantage will be lost.

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
I think the weaning problems should be lessened for the aquatics, but it will still be interesting to see how quickly the 1-2 GROW plants adapt, if it is a trouble free process and they grew away strongly they should stay algae free longer, but if the change in environment causes growth to drop off, presumably the algae will get a hold on any senescent leaves and that advantage will be lost.
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Without trying one cannot really be sure, I will have to order a few pots to see how it pans out :) .

Now if the plants from tropica are completely algae free, no spores, sterilized, and on the gel, are they deemed to have grown emersed, or imersed?

The reason I ask is that if they are grown emersed they will still need to adapt to underwater conditions, and this will further weaken them, making it prone for algae already existent on the tank as spores to attach to the leaves. Also the fact that they are much smaller than other plants purchased on the LFS's would it be correct to say that they have fewer energy reserves to keep them going while adapting to life underwater?

I have not purchased any 1-2-grow plants yet, or have seen them on a LFS, not sure if they are being sold in London.

If you have obtained any, can they be deemed as emersed or immersed?
 
Hi all,
Luis, I don't think that there is any real difference between the plants grown in rockwool and the I-2-GROW plants in terms of being emersed/immersed.

In both cases the roots are "immersed" and the top growth "emersed". I think this was the problem with roses, the roots terrestrial plants grow in hydroponics, agar or in rock-wool are quite different from the roots they grow in a terrestrial growing media, and it was during the change the plants died. It may be the 100% humidity within the sealed container for the 1-2-GROW plants will make the transition from emersed to immersed less problematic .

Any true aquatics won't be grown in this way, they will have to be grown in a liquid medium.

cheers Darrel
 
Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged
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That was my point earlier on in the thread, would plants that are grown in this way take time to recover thus making all the time, effort and OTT sterile environment counter productive if the plant is on the back foot from day 1 in your tank?
I remember discussing with Clive the snorkel effect that some plants have when not grown under water where the plants bolt to the surface to get to atmospheric air to exchange gases which I wrongly assumed was it bolting for more light. Would this also be the case with the 1-2 plants?
It seems a shame that these plants have so much TLC in the beginning of life the chances are they are going to end up in a tank which is less than adequate, probably mine :rolleyes: :D
Does this start in life demand a premium price that will be worth the extra cash or not I don't know, me personally probably no. Considering I have various algae already on a few plants which is not such a bad thing as long as it isn't ruining the overall effect as soon as the plant gets in my tank the algae is going to colonise it from the plant next door to it.
On the other hand if I had a new setup I was very experienced these would be for me.
Irony here being when Ghost was contemplating the idea of the sterile environment for plants it didn't go down too well which turns out is what tropica do :)
 
AverageWhiteBloke said:
On the other hand if I had a new setup I was very experienced these would be for me.
Irony here being when Ghost was contemplating the idea of the sterile environment for plants it didn't go down too well which turns out is what tropica do :)
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:D It was a question that had been on my head since I heard about the 1-2-grow plants. I obviously didn't know about the air borne algae spores.

I believe that some of the comments were made not out of understanding of what was being asked, but jumping of the bandwagon of others commenting the same. Makes sense?

I got algae on my tank, some brown green algae growing on the rocks, where there is high flow, and I actually like it, it gives the tank a natural look. My plants are so far without visible algae, and I probably would not buy the new tropica plants for the main tank, but for a emersed setup, or wabi kusa plant balls they would be a good choice.
 
ghostsword said:
I obviously didn't know about the air borne algae spores.
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Dont let that put you off! Sir Isaac Newton didn't know about relativity but that doesn't mean his science wasn't of any use ;)

Just because spores are possible, doesn't mean they are probable. Your "practical clean room" theory could still prove beneficial by reducing and possibly removing algae for long periods of time :)
 
Thanks.. :)

For example, would RO remove the spores from the water? Would bottled water have the spores?

For substrate, would ADA or similar, that has been cooked at high temperatures have the spores?

I may try the theory on a small tank, something under 20L, lots of ferts, lots of light and using the 1-2-grow plants, but with boiled water and with cooked substrate. Will be hard to get a completely sterile environment, but can try.

It is quite interesting how algae finds ways to survive and multiply.
 
sWozzAres said:
RO filters out molecules so spores wouldn't get through.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/ ... lls/scale/
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Thanks.. I will get some RO water for a nano, then dose EI and 12 hours of light, see if there is any algae turn up. It is cheap to try, even with just two of three 1-2-grow plants. One stems, the other anubias..
 
ghostsword said:
Thanks.. :)

For example, would RO remove the spores from the water? Would bottled water have the spores?

For substrate, would ADA or similar, that has been cooked at high temperatures have the spores?

I may try the theory on a small tank, something under 20L, lots of ferts, lots of light and using the 1-2-grow plants, but with boiled water and with cooked substrate. Will be hard to get a completely sterile environment, but can try.

It is quite interesting how algae finds ways to survive and multiply.
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Can you ensure that your RO equipment is algae spore free and that the ADA substrate has not been contaminated with algae spores between the time it was heat treated and you buying it?

You can try a simpler experiment, get a glass jar fill it with boiling water and leave it on a windowsill for a few weeks/months where it can get light and is open to the air. The jar and the water should be sterilised by boiling so any algae that grows will have come in by some other means such as airborne spores.

All this though perhaps misses the point as an earlier poster has said that they can get algae covered plants and get them back to growing healthy and 'algae free' under good plant growing conditions.
 
Brenmuk said:
You can try a simpler experiment, get a glass jar fill it with boiling water and leave it on a windowsill for a few weeks/months where it can get light and is open to the air. The jar and the water should be sterilised by boiling so any algae that grows will have come in by some other means such as airborne spores.
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Possibly also adding a second jar that has the same treatment, but the lid is screwed down tight, and see how long that one takes to show signs of algal growth as well.

and a third and fourth which get the same treatment as one and two but are kept in darkness :D
 
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