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Eradicate algae altogether from the tank - Theory

ghostsword

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Following some posts on the forum regarding how algae is ever present on the tank waiting for the right moment to grow, I came up with a theory that may actually create a free algae tank.

If we use 1-2-Grow plants that "are free of algae and snails" from Tropica, on water that has been boiled to kill any algae spores (if this is possible), with gravel or soil that has been burned to high temperatures, killing any living thing on it, we should in theory have a algae free tank, right?
 
Wrong, sorry. Spores will always find their way into the tank. Algae have been around for billions of years. Do you think that you can outsmart them, or bully them? Stop trying to always think of ways of killing everything. This mentality is exactly why Planet Earth is so totally screwed up, and we'll most likely wind up killing ourselves. The only thing left at the end might actually be algae, which would be sweet irony and justice. I don't kill algae and my tank is effectively algae free.

Concentrate more on having a healthy tank, whether you wish to use lean dosing methods or rich methods, whether you wish to use high energy or low energy. Use your heart, soul and brain cells to find the way to co-exist in that method instead of declaring total war. That path always leads to mutually assured destruction (M.A.D.)

Cheers,
 
Interesting one m8, I don't know much about algal spores and their survival outside of the aquarium. There could be problems possibly from fish or water when adding fish from the other systems. I know previously I have add small breeding tanks which were sterilised and RO buffered water with the prospective fish only in and algae still appeared.
Maybe there are airborne spores not sure but algae seem to grow anywhere their needs are met. I'd be interested in what other people have to say though.

*edited posted before I saw Clives answer :)
 
Great post, Clive.

I quite like nuisance algae.

It's a warning sign that you're doing something wrong.

When you're doing things right, you don't get any.

It's part of life's rich tapestry.

Imagine life without nuisance algae. UKAPS would be about 10% of the size it is now!!! :lol:
 
:D First time I've heard a post on algae being a friend. Maybe we should look at it from now on the same as a DC indicating problems.
Creating a truly sterile environment has always been problematic, as soon as we mess with nature it comes back even stronger to bite us. You only have to look at MRSA in hospitals, the amount of allergy sufferers in the western world due to living in too clean environments and super strains of common virus due to over prescribed antibiotics.

Long Live Algae :clap:
 
ceg4048 said:
Wrong, sorry. Spores will always find their way into the tank. Algae have been around for billions of years. Do you think that you can outsmart them, or bully them? Stop trying to always think of ways of killing everything. This mentality is exactly why Planet Earth is so totally screwed up, and we'll most likely wind up killing ourselves. The only thing left at the end might actually be algae, which would be sweet irony and justice. I don't kill algae and my tank is effectively algae free.

Concentrate more on having a healthy tank, whether you wish to use lean dosing methods or rich methods, whether you wish to use high energy or low energy. Use your heart, soul and brain cells to find the way to co-exist in that method instead of declaring total war. That path always leads to mutually assured destruction (M.A.D.)

Cheers,

erm.. Seen on the title "Theory"? This is what it is, a theory. I have no issue with Algae, I am sure that there are uses for it, and I am yet to see a nature documentary about rivers where there isn't algae on the rocks and plants.

When you say that you do not kill algae and your tank is algae free, don't you realise the impossibility of that comment? If algae is ever present, and you do not kill it, how can your tank be algae free? :D

So please do not jump to conclusions and patronise a simple question.

The question remains, can it be possible to have a completely algae free tank? After all, Tropica is selling their plants algae free. :)
 
Hi all,
As Clive suggests algal spores are everywhere in the environment, for example the freshwater green algae (Chlorophyta) produce a special hard walled "spore", an "akinete" to facilitate aerial dispersal from drying ponds. Have a look at "Survival strategies of the algae" by Greta A. Fryxell on Google books for more details.
First time I've heard a post on algae being a friend"
I look at it like that, if you don't have any there is something wrong. Just don't look on it as the hated and feared algae, but think of it as the wholly beneficial aufwuchs or "biofilm". In terms of water quality the big difference in aquarium keeping is plants or no plants, it doesn't matter whether the plants are algae or higher plants.
Maybe we should look at it from now on the same as a DC indicating problems. Creating a truly sterile environment has always been problematic, as soon as we mess with nature it comes back even stronger to bite us. You only have to look at MRSA in hospitals....."
Very true, that is why I like limited intervention, stability and slow change, things may get out of balance, but it all happens fairly slowly giving you much more of a chance to nudge the parameters until things stabilise at a new equilibrium. I use an ad hoc "algal early warning system" and I expect most of us do this, in that, for example, I expect to have both BBA and a fuzz of green algae on older leaves, but normally I have very little BGA. Therefore if the BGA suddenly starts to proliferate, or I get a unicellular green algal bloom in the water, something has changed, and need to find out what it is, and then decide if I need to attempt to do anything about it.

The higher plants and the green algae share exactly the same photosynthetic pigments and physiology, you can't create conditions that allow your aquarium plants to grow but exclude them, it is not possible, to all intents and purposes they are the same thing. What you can do however is nudge the conditions towards an equilibrium where the growth of the higher plants is favoured, this can be a highly interventionist high tech. approach, where extremely good growing conditions allow the plants to grow at a much faster rate than the algae, or they can be a much lower tech. approach where conditions are sub-optimal for both plants and algae, but they remain in a balance we find aesthetically acceptable.

cheers Darrel
 
What does Tropica do to be able to sell their plants as algae free? Not disputing that they are just wondering if they can make this claim when we are talking about things at microscopic level. Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged. Just throwing ideas up.
 
Well I'm not that into theory .. why don't you buy one and test it? :)
 
Luis,
When we talk about a tank being algae free we are saying that there are no algal blooms. It is the algal blooms that are problematic and that cause headaches, not the spores. Your theory is not valid because as I said, you cannot prevent spore intrusion into the tank because spores travel by every means possible, by land air and sea. You probably have spores on your hand, so when you stick your hand into the tank they intrude. When you open the tank lid, they intrude. When you insert a new piece of hardscape, they intrude. Your proposal is a hopeless one and it's not focused on the correct path.

You think you are being patronized? I don't do that. I'm telling you the truth. Go to any pond supply shop. There is an always an entire row of shelves dedicated to killing algae. They work for about a week, they damage the plants as well as algae and the algae returns with a vengeance because the plant is weakened and spore return to a more favourable environment for them. These products are all focused on killing. DDT was meant to kill insects, but instead it kills birds and kills us. Now it's banned. The killing mode is why you now pay extra for "organic" vegetables which supposedly have no insecticide.

The idea of an algae free tank is one in which there are no blooms, not one in which there are no spores. An algae free tank means that you have convinced the spores to not bloom, and that you have done so in plant friendly manner, NOT that you have annihilated spores from existence. You want to kill every living thing in the sediment?? Hello...Earth calling Luis, the critters that live in the sediment are the good news. They help plants. Killing them doesn't help the health of the plants or the fish.

So lets say you kill all spores. Do you think this relieves you of the burden to to feed the plants and to have proper levels of CO2 and to keep the tank clean, and to not have too much light, and to have proper flow, and so on and so forth? This still has to be done because the focus is on plant health, not on killing. You plants can still fail miserably even if there were no algae.

So if you have to do the right things anyway to make your plants grow properly, why not just learn to do them right in the first place? As George points out, if you see algal blooms then this means you are doing something wrong with respect to plant health. They effectively act as an indicator. Eradicating spores will not ultimately solve the core issue of plant health.

Cheers,
 
Thanks Clive..

So the spores are not only on the water. I still got lots to learn, it seems that algae is much more interesting than plants. :)

So they hang around for perfect conditions, most probably sensing when plants are at their worst, their spores travel by air, attached to items, even on our own hands, survive in water, dry soil and foreign objects and to top it all provide us with a large amount of O2 from the seas.

ceg4048 said:
Your proposal is a hopeless one and it's not focused on the correct path.
The theory is flawed it seems, but I have to disagree with the above, there is no correct path I think, we learned from our mistakes and by trying new things. I learn a lot from yours and other senior members posts, but it would be foolish of me not to try things and questions some of the established ideas.

This thread was not about plant health, just a question if there is a possibility to completely eradicate algae from the tank. Impossible it seems.

AverageWhiteBloke said:
What does Tropica do to be able to sell their plants as algae free? Not disputing that they are just wondering if they can make this claim when we are talking about things at microscopic level. Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged. Just throwing ideas up.

Now, this opens another questions. Tropica is then selling a gimmick. Plants without algae? Why bother? If our tanks are not up to scratch on CO2 and enough nutrients, with adequate light, as soon as you put the Tropica pristine plants in less than a week the algae problems will appear.
 
dw1305 said:
Hi all,
As Clive suggests algal spores are everywhere in the environment, for example the freshwater green algae (Chlorophyta) produce a special hard walled "spore", an "akinete" to facilitate aerial dispersal from drying ponds. Have a look at "Survival strategies of the algae" by Greta A. Fryxell on Google books for more details.

cheers Darrel

Thanks for the book link, I will check it out. Quite amazing the techniques algae has to survive the harsher environment thrown at them.
 
AverageWhiteBloke said:
What does Tropica do to be able to sell their plants as algae free? Not disputing that they are just wondering if they can make this claim when we are talking about things at microscopic level. Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged. Just throwing ideas up.

ghostsword said:
Now, this opens another questions. Tropica is then selling a gimmick. Plants without algae? Why bother? If our tanks are not up to scratch on CO2 and enough nutrients, with adequate light, as soon as you put the Tropica pristine plants in less than a week the algae problems will appear.
I have to disagree somewhat. Clive has made it clear that nothing is algae free, Tropica could have told you that 40 years ago. What they are selling is plants that are not already covered in unsightly algae like you get in many retailers. They are not pretending to sell magic plants that won't get nuisance algae on them, just that they wont have it on them when you buy them. They are not saying "dump them in your tank and they'll grow 30cm in 30 days". If you read the packaging it clearly says "*with sufficient light and nutrition", and they include a great deal of detailed instructions. It's a normal plant at the end of the day, just grown and sold slightly different to what we are used to. What you're getting here is a great deal more info then a usual potted plant and a great deal more for your money for a little extra cost.
 
Tropica is then selling a gimmick. Plants without algae?
It would appear so :? and nature all things being equal once in the tank soon would have some on.
Well worth posting the theory though ghost we all learned something from it (except Clive and George that is :D ) Thats is after all what theories are for.
 
AverageWhiteBloke said:
Tropica is then selling a gimmick. Plants without algae?
It would appear so :? and nature all things being equal once in the tank soon would have some on.
Well worth posting the theory though ghost we all learned something from it (except Clive and George that is :D ) Thats is after all what theories are for.


:) yep, I came out of this with much more information that when I started this morning, so it is good result. If buying online plants I would buy the new tropica plants, but if buying at a shop where I can see the plants, then rather buy the normal potted, even if the price difference is under £2 per pot (it may be more), however that is for another thread. :)

Thanks for sharing your insights and experiences, it was helpful.
 
Tropica are pretty much saying that they sell plants with no nuisance algae already on as oppose to algae full stop. That has to be the standard surely anyway? Anyone who sells plants already with it on isn't going to be selling them long I guess. A bit like selling ice cream guaranteeing its cold :D
Tropica plants are better in other ways and are generally very healthy compared to some I use, I think they just stated the obvious as an advertising campaign OR it could be said a bit of a gimmick intended for people who haven't read this post yet. :)
 
AverageWhiteBloke said:
Tropica are pretty much saying that they sell plants with no nuisance algae already on as oppose to algae full stop. That has to be the standard surely anyway? Anyone who sells plants already with it on isn't going to be selling them long I guess. A bit like selling ice cream guaranteeing its cold :D

But that is what marketing is, right? :)
 
yep I guess so, a bit like the more bacteria on your chopping board than your toilet seat advert :wideyed: Initially you think best buy some then think hold on that means I don't need it because I never had it before which means up to press I could have chopped food on my toilet seat and still been alright!

* DISCLAIMER
I personally or UKAPS do not recommend the preparation of food on your toilet seat. Anyone doing so is doing it solely at their own risk and accept no responsibility but can recommend putting the toilet roll in the fridge before hand as you will be needing it extensively on a tender area.
:D
 
were forgetting that 90%of tropica and aquafleur plants are grown above water.

It's tank conditions that induce algae, the amount of wonderful, brand new planted tanks with tropica plants, ADA systems...high end gear basically, that end up not quite as good as the products them selves...still believe in tropica algae free plants?

i've bought plants covered in the green stuff, and transformed them back to how they once was. so maybe algae covered plants are the future?.... :D
 
AverageWhiteBloke said:
What does Tropica do to be able to sell their plants as algae free? Not disputing that they are just wondering if they can make this claim when we are talking about things at microscopic level. Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged. Just throwing ideas up.

clonitza said:
Well I'm not that into theory .. why don't you buy one and test it? :)

ghostsword said:
AverageWhiteBloke said:
Tropica are pretty much saying that they sell plants with no nuisance algae already on as oppose to algae full stop. That has to be the standard surely anyway? Anyone who sells plants already with it on isn't going to be selling them long I guess. A bit like selling ice cream guaranteeing its cold :D

But that is what marketing is, right? :)
OK, let's clear a few things up... :)

Tropica's 1-2-GROW plants are guaranteed algae free because they are grown from cells in a sterile laboratory environment. I've been in the lab. We had to go through all-sorts of procedures to ensure we didn't contaminate anything.

Tropica's regular potted plants are not guaranteed algae free because they're grown in unsterile wet/humid conditions using plenty of light and nutrients, so some algae will grow, mostly on surface of the mineral wool. None is visible on the plant leaves.

However, when the potted plants reach the retailer they're often stored in poor conditions, leaving the plants susceptible to algae.

This is where the 1-2-GROW are advantageous in some situations, as regular shops can stock them for weeks at a time with no risk of algae and without the necessary expense of CO2-enriched, well-lit and filtered selling/holding tanks... The trade-off is that they're generally more expensive and relatively small.

No gimmicks really. Just a viable alternative to regular potted plants.
 
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