• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Endler Fry Apex Predator required!

Heavily planted tank so hard to catch every last one of them without dismantling the tank (it only takes one female!) and lack of anywhere to put them while someone is available to rehome them.
New tank now purchased so plan now in place. Hopefully I'll empty the main tank over the next few weeks and move them on. Pretty impressive how prolific they are!!
 
Simple,

Why would you have both male and female in the same tank unless you wanted to breed them. From what i gather you have both sexes and had no plan in place for the offspring.
I think people underestimate the scale and speed of the problem.

When I had endlers there were only males for sale in the color morph I wanted (in other words, the breeder was protecting their line by not offering females), but more frequently I only see live-bearers sold in pairs if you are after particular colors. I'm not sure how people manage this if they aren't breeding for profit. I assume they quietly cull a lot of fish? It's definitely a math issue.
 
In nature 99%+ of fish fry get eaten in the early stage of life. It is just what happens and is why egglayers tend to have a breeding strategy of hundreds or thousands of eggs per female. Livebearers have less offspring but at a slightly bigger size, but it is still natural for most of them to be eaten in the early stage. I don't see the difference between letting fish eat baby endlers or guppies or letting them eat baby cherry shrimp (which happens in every tank containing both shrimp and fish), or feeding them live brine shrimp, bloodworms or daphnia.

(I don't agree with deliberate live feeding of larger/older fish but that is not the question in this thread.)
 
New tank full of Endlers ready for rehoming if anybody is interested 🙂
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1787.jpeg
    IMG_1787.jpeg
    2 MB · Views: 34
I think people underestimate the scale and speed of the problem.

When I had endlers there were only males for sale in the color morph I wanted (in other words, the breeder was protecting their line by not offering females), but more frequently I only see live-bearers sold in pairs if you are after particular colors. I'm not sure how people manage this if they aren't breeding for profit. I assume they quietly cull a lot of fish? It's definitely a math issue.
Yes, they cull like mad, all breeders of fish, cull, heavily, a torch and a magnifying lens and, yes, a lack of sentimentality, not for me I admit. Only deformed or ill fish ever get the 'chop' from me. Instant death. Tragically, in almost all fields of animal breeding this process occurs, think of male cattle or male chickens.
Having said that, when people get over sentimental about Mother Nature, I think of bacteria, waiting, for an opportunity to kill us, prematurely, after all, until the 20th century, TB, Cholera, Diphtheria took lots of us, quite quickly, in our younger years. But now, cheerful thought, most of us get the chance to experience the other side of Mother Nature, slow death, later in life, from what we have inherited from our parents and grandparents, with a bit of time related mutation. Thus in the affluent part of the world, we die from our own DNA mutating or other complex biochemical changes, cancer, heart disease, strokes and dementia. I suppose, better than dying young from polluted water.

A few tiger barbs doing what comes naturally, seems to me, in anything other than a small bare tank, to be as close to natural and humane as it gets.
 
New tank full of Endlers ready for rehoming if anybody is interested 🙂
You honestly seem a kind and thoughtful person. Good luck, Manchester is a bit far from me, someone with a large indoor tank, indoor pond, I'm sure could make a good home for these beautiful little fish.
 
As someone that used to breed fish for a living, albeit on the salty side, cull means something different to me. Most will think it's removing the fish from existence but for many breeders it is simply removing them from the gene pool of the species you are working with. Deformed or unhealthy fish are normally killed but the others that don't make the grade are simply sold on as a lower quality "mix".
It's funny because before someone saw a profit in "designer clownfish", they were normally just food for something else. The exact same is true of short bodied fish, anything that wasn't naturally shaped or hybrids.

If you have true endler females then they might be quite sort after. Around me all we see is male endlers and mutt guppy females. The last time I bred endlers I used to post on Gumtree, offering them for free and they were quickly snapped up locally.
 
A few tiger barbs doing what comes naturally, seems to me, in anything other than a small bare tank, to be as close to natural and humane as it gets.

Its a tricky one.

I mean, we willing breed and harvest live food like daphnia, worms, insect larvae even snails, and feed them live to our fish. Most people keeping shrimp in their fish tanks willingly accept that a large proportion of young shrimp will get eaten by the fish. Also, most people who have fish breed accidentally in their community tanks will see eggs and fry devoured with few surviving. So I'm not sure where the dividing line should sit between what is morally acceptable and what isn't. Do we assign fish fry a great moral value than shrimp fry or daphnia for example.

I personally don't know, its a quandary and the jury is still out for me.
 
Its a tricky one.

I mean, we willing breed and harvest live food like daphnia, worms, insect larvae even snails, and feed them live to our fish. Most people keeping shrimp in their fish tanks willingly accept that a large proportion of young shrimp will get eaten by the fish. Also, most people who have fish breed accidentally in their community tanks will see eggs and fry devoured with few surviving. So I'm not sure where the dividing line should sit between what is morally acceptable and what isn't. Do we assign fish fry a great moral value than shrimp fry or daphnia for example.

I personally don't know, its a quandary and the jury is still out for me.
There are no easy solutions to being alive and no easy solutions to keeping fish. I eat meat, and enjoy venison, but I personally wouldn't shoot a deer, I have been invited to go deer stalking in the Highlands and had to say no. I like pigeon and duck, and I don't shoot birds but I know I would if my circumstances were only very slightly different, in fact I had two black labradors for years in London, and yet, despite it being a massive urban sprawl, I was on several occasions by different folks in London parks, invited to take one of the dogs shooting, the other was bit too daft and easily distracted. I can't fathom eating a dog or a chimpanzee, or an elephant or a whale, but everything that I have read tells me pigs are equally clever, sociable and sentient and yet I eat pork sausages, and feed bits of pork sausage to my cockapoo at the table, to my wife's extreme annoyance. Yet of course, without meat eating, there would be very few pigs in the world, but the industrial farming of chickens and pigs horrifies me.
Generally I let nature take its course in my tanks, tanks full of plants, some fry live some don't. I do euthanize, if I can catch them, very sick fish. The slow death of humans or animals distresses me. Modern medicine has mastered of course the art of slow death. Some folks approve, moral dilemmas are dilemmas for a reason, live bearer fry being hunted and eaten by other fish in a planted tank does not keep me awake at night.
 
Some beautiful observations there Mr Connswater, thank you. "Modern medicine has mastered of course the art of slow death" brought tears to my eyes from recent personal experience. How we create such narratives from the art of fish keeping is mesmerising. A world in a grain of sand...
 
Some beautiful observations there Mr Connswater, thank you. "Modern medicine has mastered of course the art of slow death" brought tears to my eyes from recent personal experience. How we create such narratives from the art of fish keeping is mesmerising. A world in a grain of sand...
How very kind of you, and of course, I recognise the pain of your recent personal experience.
 
Last edited:
Lots of thoughtful stuff

I recently gave up breeding chickens after forty years -- I used to teach courses on all aspects as well. One of my mantras was 'if you breed them and get cockerels, what will you do with them?' closely followed by 'if you have a mortally wounded bird at 11pm on a Sunday night when the vet is closed, who's going to do the decent thing?' It brought some people up completely short.

We ate a LOT of chicken and I got sick of killing and processing them in the end. People used to bring me crates full to deal with. I'm not vegetarian, yet, but I feel that I should be because I can't process my own meat any more.

To the same end -- I got some Endler's a couple of months ago and I love them. But I am now in the same situation as the OP... I'm about to move everyone in to single-sex-tanks 🙂.
 
I think I'm a bit of a hypocrite. I don't eat meat but will happily feed live daphnia, mozzy larvae, bbs or micro worms etc to my fish but I'll open a window to let a fly out. The thing that was often touted as law with vetebrates was that you weren't allowed to cause "undue suffering" and for me, a fish in a community tank not reaching adulthood is very different to one being fed to something else deliberately.

Endlers are always gonna be a problem to keep in check. I was reading about a chap that had five gulper catfish, that added them to a colony of endlers and they didn't seem to slow them down.
 
@prdad I simpathise a lot with you as I am partly in the same situation. We have given away many fish in the last week but I am sure we'll be in the same situation soon, which is why I have just set another 120 L when I just wanted to start this hobby with a single 60 L tank (I hope to share that in our journal this weekend).

In my case, being a newbie, I have completely underestimated the breeding capacity of Endlers, even in waters where they are not supposed to thrive (ultra soft and slightly acidic). I thought the other fish (ember and neon tetras) would eat most of the fry... But they are too large for them, even if they enjoy live food every once in a while (something you are even encouraged to do). I agree with you, deliberately feeding live fish to other fish is hard to stomach, but I don't think small fry/eggs naturally occuring in the aquarium is exactly the same.

Now that their population is very small, I will actively look for killis or similar to complete our tank precisely for those reasons, and I don't think there should be something wrong with it. Sustainability in this regard is worth being considered (and let's not talk about water changes...)
 
Hi all,
I will actively look for killis or similar to complete our tank precisely for those reasons
even in waters where they are not supposed to thrive (ultra soft and slightly acidic)
Epiplatys dageti? Although they might eat the full grown male Endlers as well.

cheers Darrel
 
Ive seen these And golden wonder try and take female bettas in the past, they will try and eat what they can.
I can see it is not going to be an easy job... Well, giving them away to the local community worked the very first time, and there were lots of people that would have wanted more... Quite a few people with 200+ littre tanks around! I did like the idea of adding a few Epiplatys dageti to the tank, although I would probably need it to get denser with plants first

IMG_20250131_190826744_HDR.jpg
 
Back
Top