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Dosing Fe ( Iron ) ?

Yup, nice link. The mix I am looking at from barrreport is 1 tablespoon CSM+B and 1 teaspoon of gluconate to 1 litre. Just got to weigh up a comparison between CSM+B content and AE's orginal trace mix that I have now.

Also all the barbling I have done above and I notice that our very own JamesC has covered this a long time ago both on his site and on UKaps too:
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/traces.htm

and the thread on here discussing the different traces and their content:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1681&hilit=trace+comparison

AC
 
Hi all,
I'm pretty sure the other posters have already posted all the answers:
Also with iron we understand that it is very quickly locked up by phosphate when it goes in the water. Hence high iron and phosphate = milky water.
Click to expand...
because TPn+ has very low levels. Plus other acids .....
Click to expand...
The overall message I am reading from Tom and others in these threads (and more I haven't linked to) is that they use a mixture of gluconate which has a very very weak bond and then different chelators. The gluconate is readily available almost instantly on entry to the water but then is locked up very quickly. However the plants get their fed. Then the other mixture of chelators break down at different rates. The overall effect is like a drip feed where the plants get multiple fixes from the one dose as each different chelator breaks down.
Click to expand...
The KH/Ph plays a part in the break down of the chelators so where you have a low KH the gluconate is usable for longer where when the KH is higher (for most of us) then the chelators are more useful.
Click to expand...
The cloudiness is caused by insoluble compounds (possibly the milkiness is calcium phosphate), and iron will both oxidise (with Fe3+ ions and precipitate as rust) and react with phosphate to give insoluble iron phosphate complexes. This is Fe availability against pH for a range of plant nutrients (it is in the soil so a more complex situation, but the same basic principle holds)

NutrientAvailability_pH.jpg


This is the Fe availability vs. pH graph for the different chelators.
iron%20chelate.png


Ferrous gluconate will be broken down pretty quickly by the bacteria in the aquarium, releasing the Fe2+ ions, but their fate will depend upon the pH etc of the aquarium water. Personally I'd start with EDTA (or ferrous gluconate) as they are the cheaper options.

I'm not sure there will be an easily available source of ferrous gluconate in the UK. You can get as tablets for the treatment of anaemia, but I don't know how expensive that would work out.

cheers Darrel
 
Maybe I am naive.. But wouldn't dosing Iron tablets achieve the same result?

For example, Boots iron tablets have 14mg of iron per pill, and if we can have it, it should be ok for fish too.

It has:
Cellulose, Calcium Phosphate, Ferrous Fumarate, Maltodextrin, Hydroxypropylmethylcellulose, Magnesium Stearate, Colours(Titanium Dioxide, Iron Oxides), Silicon Dioxide, Glycerol.

http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Iron-Tabl ... %20Tablets
 
depends if 'Ferrous Fumarate' is any good for the plants to use. Tom describes Ferrous sulphate in the link someone provided at the top of this page as 'adding rust to the water'!!!. Many sources for iron but not all 'available'. With those iron tablets they do have lots of other things in there as well so no idea. Can't really go on what is safe for humans etc. Human chocolate can be pretty bad for animals, grapes can be 'poisonous' to dogs and so on. etc.

On the iron filings yep, In one of the links I posted above I think the 'DIY enthusiasts' one but can't remember, Tom speaks about iron filings etc. A little like the ADA iron block that you put in the substrate. I remember reading somewhere else someone describing the ADA iron 'block' as being an expensive old nail. lol

I'm just enjoying a return to the good old days and waiting to see if I get any bubbles from this coke bottle. lol

AC
 
I just read the thread from the beginning and I've wasted a whole page repeating whats already been said. lol. Bad habit I have there. 'MUST READ THREAD FROM START' he says whilst knocking the spheric shaped wooden object on shoulders with knuckles.

In short Tom's recipe was 1 tablespoon of trace + 1 teaspoon Fe Gluconate to 1 litre of water. I guess that answers Graeme's question 🙂

I am confused as to the usablilty of ferrous sulphate now. I know that Easylife Ferro is green so that I assume is Ferrous. TPN is brown so I assume that is Ferric, however TPN+ is green so I assume that is again Ferrous. My AE (Old recipe) trace is brown.....Whats going on.aaargh. lol

Does it really matter which we use as an iron source? Ferric/Ferrous? and if so as Ferric Sulphate is more readily available how much to add to the trace mix?

AC
 
This is quite a good mix for testing. bit expensive for larger amounts though. Has DTPA and EDTA mixed in together.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Chelated-IRON-8-E ... 27b46b632a

On a side note its quite embarrasing the 'pride' felt when seeing the first bubble come from the DIY CO2 setup. lol. Like all those bad......err I mean good memories returning 🙂 2 bubbles per minute after only an hour and a half.........yahoo :clap:

AC
 
Hi all,
Neither elemental iron (iron fillings) or iron oxides "rust" will work effectively as an iron source. The only compounds that will work are ones which disassociate into Fe2+ (ferrous) or Fe3+ (ferric) ions in solution. The IP "ionic potential" of ferric ions is higher (about 5) than for ferrous ions (approx. 2.5), meaning that ferric ions are more likely to both precipitate out of solution and form compounds. Very fine iron particles would have potential for adding iron (this is what they use in the "fertilise the oceans phytoplankton" experiments), but I have no idea to what extent this would be true on the aquarium scale.

It is the problem of keeping iron in solution for horticulture that initially led to the use of chelators like EDTA.
Have a look here for the role of micro-nutrients, it is from a company, and deals with terrestrial plants, but it gives a fairly non-technical review of chelation. <http://www.haifachem.com/download/files/Micro_nutrients.pdf>

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
Hi all,
Neither elemental iron (iron fillings) or iron oxides "rust" will work effectively as an iron source. The only compounds that will work are ones which disassociate into Fe2+ (ferrous) or Fe3+ (ferric) ions in solution.
l
Click to expand...

What you say is backed up by information found on the web, and also by the notion that if elemental iron worked then with so many ships sunk in the oceans there would not be a need to fertilise the phytoplankton, they would have all the iron needed from the sunken boats.

This brings then another question. What is then ADA bottom long, and such things being sold on the market today? Or is it unrelated?
 
Hi all,
Luis, I think the effectiveness of the iron filings would depend upon a number of factors, the particles used are very small. The details of the ocean fertilisation experiments are here: <http://marine.rutgers.edu/ebme/Hist...s_Fall2008/Week8b/Boyd_et_al_Science_2007.pdf>

I'm not sure about the "ADA bottom long" <http://www.adgshop.com/Iron_Bottom_Long_p/104-102.htm> your post was the first time I've heard of it. My suspicion would be that a slow release form of Osmocote would be a lot more cost effective. What about this as an alternative? <http://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Gro-Release-Azalea-Camellia-Rhododendron/dp/B001880UGM>

Personally if I was concerned that my plants weren't getting enough iron (which is possible at high pH/KH), I'd dose FeEDTA on a daily basis. You could buy 50g FeEDTA for about £3 on Ebay. <http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Chelated-IRON-13-Fe-EDTA-Aquarium-Fertilizer-/170530035589>. (Probably from <http://www.solufeed.com/chelates.html>)

cheers Darrel
 
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