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Dosing Fe ( Iron ) ?

For the benefit of anyone that doesn't have a degree in science here is EDTA
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...OzCfbU&t=1&usg=__rQbDkuPIio2sRDHhez4Jt3hO_p0=
The M is a metal and can be Iron or magnesium or something.

Darrell, whilst I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and most posts are very very good, but people are asking you to explain it in a basic way and you've gone so technical and in-depth that tbh even I skimmed most of it!

To answer the question I think iron needs to be chelated so it doesn't react to form something that won't dissolve back in.
Analogy:
Imagine a person, if you ate your 2000 calories for the day in one sitting you would have to store some away (as fat but imagine you can't get this energy back) and then the rest of the day you would be hungry. In this case the food would be iron.
I think chelating - which is a posh term for binding really - iron 'eeks' it out so its available in little amounts over a longer period of time.

I hope this explanation helps someones understanding anyway 🙂
 
Yes, this is more like it. Thank you Lisa.

So, the question remainds. If you dose iron, any of you. How much do you dose and on what grounds do you dose at that rate?

At what concertration and daily or weekly amount is good? How do we even know what concerntration are in n
any brand of iron?
I can find out from a bottle what they recomend, but we know company's often under dose acording to their values.

Cheers for discussion guys.
 
When you take out the rocks substrate etc how much water is actually in a 30l tank probably not a lot really. So I'd dose with that in mind if it was my tank. If i was dosing 2 drops ECA per day I would probably do water changes every few days as a precaution, watching things closly is obviously the best way, but thats sort of where I would start. I have used ECA at the regular dosage (2 drops per 5l per week) and found it good but over do it and it can be problematic IME. Just my tuppence worth 🙂
 
Hi.

I have been following this discussion with some interest, especially as I dose a lot of FE on my tank.

I use EasyFerro, twice per week, 5ml each time on my 120L tank. I saw the benefits on the amazon swords, and now on my Crypt Balansae and L. Aromatica. So 10ml per week total, right after the water changes.

Took me 3 months to figure out that less than 10ml the plants loose the color and more than 10ml I do not see a benefit.

Two weeks of dosing, after a month of neglect:
4989249521_cc300f27b1.jpg

Amazon Rubin plantlet:
4584513384_d4a8a233cc.jpg

Amazon Rubin:
4473979045_333c03f53c.jpg
4474714376_cfd52fb5f7.jpg

H. Polysperma:
4482924400_69d6454a0a.jpg
 
Graeme Edwards said:
So, the question remainds. If you dose iron, any of you. How much do you dose and on what grounds do you dose at that rate?
Click to expand...

Well I tend to look at my most difficult plants for deficiencies and I dose accordingly. Usually I found out that, using an enriched substrate, you don't really need to dose often than 1 time/week if you haven't trimmed the plants that week and twice if did. I use around 0.5ppm trace and sometimes, if I dose three times, I do it twice with trace and once with iron. After the water change I use Dennerle PlantaGold 7.
 
Hi all,
Thanks Lisa, that is a good analogy and exactly the point I was trying (and obviously failing) to get over. The answer to "why can't I just dose ferric sulphate every day" is that you can, and that it would probably be all right, dependent upon the pH of the water and the amount of other nutrients in the water column. In Lisas' analogy it would be the "constant snacking diet". Using a chelated iron source gets around this, it is the equivalent of a "good meal".

My suspicion would be that for the vast majority of plants the FluidSensor Trace elements mix - 8.4% Fe <http://www.fluidsensoronline.com/ze..._69_75&zenid=339f6b33dd71ec8014ed61da02db4b27> would supply all their needs.

If you want to buy Iron chelate another possibility is "Chempak Chelated Iron pH 6-8 powder" which contains 7% Iron DTPA. Making a solution by adding 3g to 250ml water will give 0.084% Iron which can be used to supplement iron levels by dosing at normal trace amounts." from the fantastic "James' Planted Tank" <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/traces.htm>, which also gives dosing amounts <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm>.

Finally If you do go down the route of making your own Iron chelate solution (from di-sodium EDTA and ferric sulphate & probably only an option for those with some chemistry background), you need to oxidise the stock solution (I use an air-line and pump), and then store it in the dark.

cheers Darrel
 
ghostsword said:
Hi.

I have been following this discussion with some interest, especially as I dose a lot of FE on my tank.

I use EasyFerro, twice per week, 5ml each time on my 120L tank. I saw the benefits on the amazon swords, and now on my Crypt Balansae and L. Aromatica. So 10ml per week total, right after the water changes.

Took me 3 months to figure out that less than 10ml the plants loose the color and more than 10ml I do not see a benefit.

Two weeks of dosing, after a month of neglect:
4989249521_cc300f27b1.jpg

Amazon Rubin plantlet:
4584513384_d4a8a233cc.jpg

Amazon Rubin:
4473979045_333c03f53c.jpg
4474714376_cfd52fb5f7.jpg

H. Polysperma:
4482924400_69d6454a0a.jpg
Click to expand...


I am wondering if those who dose Fe ,and trace , think that by using water conditioner such as Prime that perhaps it would be better to dose afore mentioned the day after water changes?
This product claims to detoxify or bind with heavy metals (12 hours-twenty four hours) and if this is so,,would not waiting to dose Fe or trace containing metals ,until the following day be wise?
 
zig said:
When you take out the rocks substrate etc how much water is actually in a 30l tank probably not a lot really. So I'd dose with that in mind if it was my tank. If i was dosing 2 drops ECA per day I would probably do water changes every few days as a precaution, watching things closly is obviously the best way, but thats sort of where I would start. I have used ECA at the regular dosage (2 drops per 5l per week) and found it good but over do it and it can be problematic IME. Just my tuppence worth 🙂
Click to expand...

You see, this is exactly why I started this thread. You say it your self. Over dosing can be problematic. ( I agree ) But why?

Why or what are the problems with over dosing Iron. I have found it brings on funny algae's.

Is there a level marker we should look at when growing red plants? How much is the right amount?

Cheers.
 
Hi all,
Luis you are correct, for any water conditioner that contains EDTA/DPTA etc, the Fe ions will bump all other ions (including heavy metals) from their place. Sodium is the least strongly bonded ion and iron the most strongly bonded.

I've just edited this post, because on reflection I think this is probably more of a theoretical problem, as the ligands (loose chemical bonds) take some time to exchange ions.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi,

Very interesting topic but how does HEEDTA chelator fit into the scheme of things? Is it the same as a DPTA chelator?

Regards, Chris.
 
I've just started dosing Easy Life Ferro (5ml per day) in addition to my usual TPN+ (12ml per day) in my 160 litre Dutch tank.

FYI 5ml Easy Life Ferro in a 160 litre tank adds 0.16ppm Fe(II). It also adds extra potassium, but I'm unsure how much.

I wonder if the extra Fe (and K) will make a difference, as the TPN+ does already contain both these nutrients.

I wonder if the ratios of individual nutrients like these make a difference? Clive, Darrell....?
 
Haven't read this before but it intrigues me. Seems like a step backward in thinking.

I thought that these days we dismissed the red=iron suggestion. Also With iron we understand that it is very quickly locked up by phosphate when it goes in the water. Hence high iron and phosphate = milky water.

Just because you don't see milky water doesn't mean the same reaction hasn't occurred, just not in the same quantities.
How much extra iron can cause this? Well just having high macro and trace dosing can (not necessarily will) cause this. I have seen it several times in my low dose tank both with CO2 addition (thus higher dosing) and without CO2 (almost no dosing)and I back off the macros for a day or 2 and it clears.

In the non CO2 tank I am only adding macro and only every month max so if I put a little too much I have milky water for a few days. I of course just leave it to run its course as there is no 'cutting back' to do on the ferts. When I was CO2 enriched I would miss a couple - few days of macros to get the same result.

I guess many attribute it to bacterial bloom, but just stepping off the macros cures it which leans towards the 'lock up' argument.

Using better chelators will of course 'prolong' the availability before lock up but just how long does it prolong it. Are we talking minutes with plain iron compared to half an hour with a good chelator. It is shorter? Is it longer?

Questions to be answered for sure but I did think the extra iron addition over trace theories had been long dismissed.

The lock up aspect plus how little extra it can sometimes take to get a 'visible' lock up asks the question how much of this extra iron is actually used in uptake if any at all!!!

AC
 
because TPn+ has very low levels. Plus other acids and thingys. JamesC would be best to explain theat conundrum.It may be the quantity that causes the problem. If it were a constant we would be able to dose only one or the other.

However in answer to the original question here is TomB's plain and simple 'recipe' detailing his suggestion (post no 3)
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... light=iron

This is a very good thread on this subject plus the breakdown and even using different Fe/chelator mixes together dependent on the KH of the water.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... light=iron

I think it may well be that my first statement in this post is completely wrong and it may in fact be that Tropica is using a long term chelator to avoid the reaction 🙂 Its good to learn things 😉

I told you it intrigued me 🙂 Expect a few more links.lol


AC
 
My two cents.. 🙂

Obviously I have not been keeping plants as long as most of you, so I may be wrong, but from my observations, I dose a lot of iron and the plants that are to be red, become redder.

Also, I do a one stock solution, taken from JamesC page, and I drop quite a lot of Trace Elements, purchased them from fluidsensor, and I have no cloudiness whatsoever.

Once a week, I dose EasyFerro, and still no cloudiness.

Obviously I may be wrong, and something else is at play.
 
So in the space of a couple of hours I have proven myself wrong 🙂 Is goodthoug. I am just as happy to be proven wrong as to be proven right because it means my knowledge and understanding is increased.

The overall mesage I am reading from Tom and others in these threads (and more I haven't linked to) is that they use a mixture of gluconate which has a very very weak bond and then different chelators.

The gluconate is readily available almost instantly on entry to the water but then is locked up very quickly. However the plants get their fed. Then the other mixture of chelators break down at different rates. The overall effect is like a drip feed where the plants get multiple fixes from the one doswe as each different chelator breaks down.

The suggestion is the gluconate is useless in a couple of hours where DTPA might take 2 days to break down. Then comes in the KH. The KH/Ph plays a part in the break down of the chelators so where you have a low KH the gluconate is usable for longer where when the KH is higer (for most of us) then the chelators are more useful.

I would guess this is why Tropica apparently use 2 different chelated irons in their mix to facilitate this 'pulse' feeding and also take into account different KH reactions.

So why not just dose chelators? It is suggested that it is harder for the plant to take the chelated orin than the freely available iron so it makes sense to use this mixture. There is not much time between breakdown and locked up so it 'pulses' the availability like snacking rather than having to be gorging on the iron before it is all gone.

This extra Fe addition would also explain why I and many others consider a need to ad more trace in a rhizome heavy tank. These boys eat through trace. However now I ask are they eating through trace or eating through iron? When I used to have CO2 enriched I did used to dose 5:4 ratio of macros to micro where the 'guidelines' suggest 2:1. Maybe all I needed was that extra iron.

I am quite tempted to get 3 coke bottles and get some DIY CO2 going here to test this thought (I sold the pressurised 🙂 )

I shall keep reading though.. I am finding snippets here and there of 'bonus' ,aterial as I read.

This is a very good link on this subject:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... rom-micros

And another for the DIY enthusiast:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... experiment

And one that confuses and seems to go some way to my original belief:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... lated-iron

AC
 
Any idea where I can buy ferrous gluconate in powder form in the UK? Will Folic acid tablets be any good. They contain some ascorbic acid.

AC
 
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