Do I have BGA?

[Ray]

I always looked at the blackouts like using an atomic bomb to kill the mosquito. Blackouts/chemicals/erythromycin etc. will only remove the effect, but not the source/cause of the problem.

In my experience it can also work like a reset button on a computer - restores a stable known state in favour of the plants. This does have to be combined with root cause removal and a massive clean up, of course.

Re siphoning: I think if you calculate how much Blue Exit you dosed per litre so far you could put it back in if you siphoned out what BGA you can. I presume Easylife don’t advise that because not every customer is going to be able to correctly figure that out!?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

But, it won't necessarily eliminate every single cell of the blue-green menace

It has been around for approximately 3.5 billion years and, from what I've read, is responsible for the production of oxygen in our atmosphere.

True, <"cyanobacteria are universal on Earth"> and are the first organisms <"known from the fossil record">.

Exactly that, source of the problem won't be removed and algae will very likely come back as plants will be weakened.

reset button on a computer - restores a stable known state in favour of the plants. This does have to be combined with root cause removal

I'm not a fan of <"magic bullets" either">, but in this case I'd try @Ray's suggestion of an extensive syphon followed by a three day black-out.

all you need is the flow, oxygen and healthy plants doing their job.

That would be pretty much my thoughts as well.

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

...but in this case I'd try @Ray's suggestion of an extensive syphon followed by a three day black-out.

Hi Folks,

Use of a siphon on thick 'sheets' of cyano may result in blockages. I would suggest to the OP that the use of a bottle brush may be better. Dip it into the cyano and twirl the brush to 'reel it in'. Just a thought.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Ruskie

How would you like to move forward on this? I don't want to waste time going back through my notes and emails if you've decided to move away from the Blue Exit approach.

JPC

 

[Ruskie]

With all respect @Ruskie but you may seem to be very impatient.

Impatient- No, Inexperienced- Yes.

The questions I ask are due to the fact I have zero experience in the matter so I don’t actually know if the results I’m seeing are expected or not.
You’ve got to bare in mind this my first ever tank and only just over a month old at that. This hobby may come naturally to some people, clearly it doesn’t for me.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Use of a siphon on thick 'sheets' of cyano may result in blockages. I would suggest to the OP that the use of a bottle brush may be better. Dip it into the cyano and twirl the brush to 'reel it in'.

I know what you mean, but I would definitely go for syphoning. I think that the twirl method works well for filamentous green algae, but in this case I'm worried that it is just going to fragment the BGA into a million pieces.

I'd use a reasonably long run ~90 cm of 12/16 tubing, or similar, and have the water flowing fairly quickly. I've always used a mouth syphon to start the flow going. I've never got on with the squeezy bulb ones.

This hobby may come naturally to some people, clearly it doesn’t for me.

No you are good, I don't think it comes easy to any of us. When I started keeping aquariums there wasn't really much information, so you had to <"learn by your mistakes">. It is different now, there is a huge amount of information, much of it conflicting.

Personally I've got a <"fairly jaundiced view ">of the suppliers of <"many of the sellers of aquarium products">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Ruskie]

Hi @Ruskie

How would you like to move forward on this? I don't want to waste time going back through my notes and emails if you've decided to move away from the Blue Exit approach.

JPC

At the minute I’m not giving up on the Blue Exit approach altogether just veering away from ‘their’ suggested approach.
Personally I feel that leaving the tank sat as is for another 10 or so days is not going to be doing me any good at all. Maybe I’m wrong.

I’ll tell you what my gut feeling is at the minute.

•Remove as much of the Cyano as I can.
This is probably going to involve cutting away a good chunk of the mosses as this seems the worse affected.
Clean as much as I can from the wood/rock. Trim the worst affected leaves.
Syphon the carpeting plants (will probably end up uprooting them)

•Do a big water change and general clean up.
Clean the glass, remove any debris, clean the pre filter.

•Double dose Blue Exit

• Blackout for 3 days.

•Pray

Thoughts people?

 

[jaypeecee]

I know what you mean, but I would definitely go for syphoning. I think that the twirl method works well for filamentous green algae, but in this case I'm worried that it is just going to fragment the BGA into a million pieces.

Hi @dw1305

Don't forget that this cyano is likely to be Oscillatoria species, which is a filamentous cyanobacteria. My previous experience, if the OP has this same species, is that it peels away from some surfaces very easily. It's like removing thick cellophane. It is comprised of multiple sheets lying on top of each other and bonded together by something secreted by the cyano itself. If it's the same stuff as that which I once had a few years ago, the OP should be able to remove it all in less than 30 minutes. Apart from the little bits that just don't come away. That's where the Blue Exit comes in. And, finally, the belt-and-braces bit but only if it's necessary, a UV-C sterilizer to suck in and kill the cyano once and for all. That's what I did and detailed in my other cyano thread. And it worked. For anyone in doubt, please look at the photos I attached. Here's the link:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cyanobacteria-identification-at-last.60496/

JPC

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

This is probably going to involve cutting away a good chunk of the mosses as this seems the worse affected.

I think it should syphon of in a sheet as @jaypeecee suggests. I'd definitely go for twirling/syphoning before I resorted to too much in the way of surgery.

The problem with chopping out bits of effected plant is that cyanobacteria are often really quicker growers, and can grow much more quickly than your plants can.

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Ruskie,

Comments below and please read post #109.


1

At the minute I’m not giving up on the Blue Exit approach altogether just veering away from ‘their’ suggested approach.

Agreed, no problem.


2

Syphon the carpeting plants (will probably end up uprooting them)

Agreed.


3

Remove as much of the Cyano as I can. This is probably going to involve cutting away a good chunk of the mosses as this seems the worse affected. Clean as much as I can from the wood/rock. Trim the worst affected leaves.

Agreed. Please read post #109.


4

Do a big water change and general clean up. Clean the glass, remove any debris, clean the pre filter.

Agreed.


5

Double dose Blue Exit

I think we can increase the dosage to a much higher level. To be confirmed.


6

Blackout for 3 days.

No harm in doing this.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Ruskie

Further to the above, please confirm what inhabitants, if any, you have in your tank, as this may have some bearing on the safe dose for Blue Exit.

JPC

 

[Ruskie]

Hi all, I think it should syphon of in a sheet as @jaypeecee suggests. I'd definitely go for twirling/syphoning before I resorted to too much in the way of surgery.

The problem with chopping out bits of effected plant is that cyanobacteria are often really quicker growers, and can grow much more quickly than your plants can.

cheers Darrel

Ok, cheers Darrel.
I actually just tried twirling a skewer about in a section of the moss and although it doesn’t come off in sheets as such it does come away quite easily. I don’t want to disturb it too much with out syphoning though as it does seem to break up as you suggested.
For what it’s worth the moss underneath still looks surprisingly healthy.

I think we can increase the dosage to a much higher level. To be confirmed.

If you could reference your notes that would be great

Edit: @jaypeecee You posted as I was typing. I have 5x RCS in the tank, nothing else

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Ruskie

OK, I have some more info. The standard dose for Blue Exit, as you will know, is 10 ml per 80 litres. This is equivalent to 0.125 ml per litre. The effectiveness and toxicity to fish of Blue Exit (and AlgExit*) was the subject of the following paper:

https://mnet.mendelu.cz/mendelnet2013/articles/43_postulkova_817.pdf

There's little chance of fish suffering with elevated dosages of Blue Exit because "BLUE EXIT moves beyond the range of a hundredfold concentration, because no fish died". Regarding other tank inhabitants, this is what Easy-Life have to say on their web site:

"Blue Exit is easy and safe to use and is harmless to fish, shrimps, molluscs and plants. If there is a serious infestation, the Blue Exit treatment can be prolonged for a few days, even with a double dose".

Returning to the effectiveness of Blue Exit, the paper above concludes that "Percentage cell inhibition of Anabaena sp. in 96 hours with ALGEXIT in concentration 0.1ml.l-1 was 43.53% and with BLUE EXIT in concentration 0.125 ml.l-1 was 90.64%". Note that this was using the Anabena species of cyanobacteria, not Oscillatoria, which is what I had in the latest tank on which I reported.

So, to summarize, you can definitely increase the dosage amount. How would you feel about doubling the dose tomorrow (Tuesday), then tripling the dose on Wednesday and, finally, quadrupling the dose on Thursday. Then, we'll review the situation.

* Ignore AlgExit

JPC

 

[Ruskie]

@jaypeecee

Many thanks for that it’s both informative and reassuring

On the back of that I’m happy to try the increased doses you’ve suggested.

I think I will follow the plan I laid out in post #108 minus the blackout and using the daily increased dosages and see where we stand.

I can always try the blackout at a later date if we still feel it’s needed. I must admit I do wonder if the lack of ferts due to the treatment and then introducing a blackout would be the final nail in the coffin for my plants.

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Ruskie,

I spotted this a couple of days ago and I thought it was of interest for two reasons:

https://www.aquasabi.com/Willow-Bark-10-g

- Shrimps like to nibble on it
- Contains i.a. salicylic acid

As you have RCS in your tank, it adds support to the fact that your RCS should be safe. As I understand it, salicylic acid was first extracted from the Willow tree. In fact, the word 'salicylic' is derived from the Latin, salix = willow tree.

Today should have been the quadruple dose, if I remember rightly. Looking forward to getting an update. I can't help but feel that Easy-Life were being ultra cautious with the recommended dose of Blue Exit.

JPC

 

[Ruskie]

Thanks @jaypeecee I'll have a look into that.

Right, an update.

Your correct, yesterday should have been the quadruple dose but I’m a little behind and plans have changed slightly again.

Tuesday was a big clean up and I removed a fair amount of the Cyano. The problem I had is that currently I don’t have a simultaneous water in/out system while doing a water change. In effect that meant I ‘ran out of time’ whilst cleaning as I’d removed about 75% of the water. I did a double dose this day once I had refilled.

Wednesday I did the same again. Cleaning more out while doing another change. I dosed slightly more than double this day.

Yesterday. No water change and a triple dose.

As it stands the tank looks a hell of a lot better but I can still see traces of the Cyano in places around the tank and clinging onto some plants so feel like I should do at least another clean up. What I don’t see is any new patches appearing but it is very early days.

That leads us onto today where I think I’m gonna change the plan slightly.

My new inflow/outflow pipes turned up out of the blue today (thanks China post). The new lily outflow should give me better flow and surface movement than the spin one I have currently and the inflow (with skimmer) is going to sit much deeper in the tank than my old one. Hopefully that will also give me more movement at substrate level to help with the Cyano that clings to my carpet plants - Yes, I uprooted several trying to syphon it off

So current modified plan:
•Have another clean.
•Fit new pipes.
•Start the double/triple/quadruple dose again over the coming days.

Let’s see what happens.

What are people’s thoughts on maybe starting to add ferts again? Plants are starting to look a little worse for wear and I think they are suffering from the reduced photo period / lack of fert combo.

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Ruskie

What are people’s thoughts on maybe starting to add ferts again? Plants are starting to look a little worse for wear and I think they are suffering from the reduced photo period / lack of fert combo

Thanks for the update. You've certainly been busy!

I think it's worth gradually adding some ferts again. It's a bit of a guess as to which way things will move as a result. Your plants may need ferts but any cyano may also take advantage of these. This is where I would resort to measuring nutrients in the water column - nitrate, phosphate, potassium, magnesium and iron. That way you could target any specific nutrient deficiencies. Otherwise, you could try an all-rounder such as TNC Complete. Please remind me if you are adding liquid carbon as I don't think you're injecting CO2. Carbon may not be a problem as your plants will be leaking carbon into the water. They do this when healthy but even more so if they are suffering.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

As it stands the tank looks a hell of a lot better but I can still see traces of the Cyano in places around the tank and clinging onto some plants so feel like I should do at least another clean up. What I don’t see is any new patches appearing but it is very early days.

Good news!

JPC

 

[Ruskie]

@jaypeecee

No CO2 or liquid carbon. I only have Tropica Specialised nutrition.

 

[Ray]

@jaypeecee

No CO2 or liquid carbon. I only have Tropica Specialised nutrition.

I think you have to dose so your plants don't get unwell or other problems will come. I'd dose after lights off so the plants have overnight to wick it up before the algae gets a look in. Back in the day there was a school of thought that mega dosing nitrates would hammer BGA. I'm not sure where that stands these days?

So you could either double dose on that philosophy or micro dose on the basis the plants will take it all in overnight and there will be nothing for the BGA by morning...