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Did something eat these?
- Thread starter JoshP12
- Start date
Should it be gooey? I had some flowers fall off (naturally) before but they were ... well ... not covered in slime. I'll see if I see anymore.
EDIT: have seen some stuff about this thing being on driftwood, just not plants. Will probably pass!
Thanks!
Day 3:
They look more like bells - the leaves are all up. This is at lights on.
S.repens observation: everyday I was fishing out around 5 S. repens leaves - I haven't fished any since this change. I wonder if the plant was moving the magnesium around (since it couldn't get it from the water column due to excess potassium) and the lower leaves were being killed off as a result.
Now, this is cool.
The Rotala "crunches" have now sprouted a "long" (relative to original) internode from the center of the crunch and has now sprouted new leaves 👍.
For anyone passin' thru: Potassium bicarbonate completely stopped for remineralization - just using tap water at 8 Ca and 2 Mg. EI daily dose of potassium nitrate + potassium phosphate. EI daily dose of Plantex CSM + B dictated by .1 iron.
In a few water changes, I will see how everything adapts (although I turned over tank water immensely, there could still be residual that it is feeding off of. At that point, I will lean my EI dose (or not - but I will 😛); these pictures illustrate (I think) the effects of bringing potassium out of an extremely excess ratio (and the only way to do do that was to cease dosing Mg and calc and putting them at ratios that are "known" (i.e. my tap water).
Ludwigia has not uncurled yet.
Josh
They look more like bells - the leaves are all up. This is at lights on.
S.repens observation: everyday I was fishing out around 5 S. repens leaves - I haven't fished any since this change. I wonder if the plant was moving the magnesium around (since it couldn't get it from the water column due to excess potassium) and the lower leaves were being killed off as a result.
Now, this is cool.
The Rotala "crunches" have now sprouted a "long" (relative to original) internode from the center of the crunch and has now sprouted new leaves 👍.
For anyone passin' thru: Potassium bicarbonate completely stopped for remineralization - just using tap water at 8 Ca and 2 Mg. EI daily dose of potassium nitrate + potassium phosphate. EI daily dose of Plantex CSM + B dictated by .1 iron.
In a few water changes, I will see how everything adapts (although I turned over tank water immensely, there could still be residual that it is feeding off of. At that point, I will lean my EI dose (or not - but I will 😛); these pictures illustrate (I think) the effects of bringing potassium out of an extremely excess ratio (and the only way to do do that was to cease dosing Mg and calc and putting them at ratios that are "known" (i.e. my tap water).
Ludwigia has not uncurled yet.
Josh
soham
Seedling
Considering you have very softwater, effects of excess nutrient (specially traces) would be even more pronounced. Things seem to be improving gradually. If you do not see any improvement of Ludwigia (which you probably won't), please do a couple of massive water changes and cut down on traces.
After reducing traces will the improvement to Ludwigia happen?
I have to leave for a few days, so I will leave the system a go, when I return water change and time to fiddle with decreasing ferts 👍. I am also almost at max capacity for my lights! I still want to increase those too (probably do it first). I had to stop increasing my lights because I’m leaving and it’s just better.
I did find Barr’s post which I have been looking for: https://barrreport.com/threads/the-estimative-index-of-dosing-or-no-need-for-test-kits.52/
Excellent read (just felt like linking it).
Thanks Soham!
Josh
soham
Seedling
Most likely, but I can not say for sure. Because Ludwigia leaf curling/bending can also occur due to other factors. That's why I like to keep all the nutrient levels 'low'. Then there is nothing in excess creating toxicity/unmet demand for other nutrients. Daily dosing, good CO2 and flow should keep the system stable. You can always add more later to accelerate growth.
Nutrient levels in the water column? I am assuming your substrate is packed with them?
Josh
Back home! A quick update:
FTS:
S. repens has responded well. However, and I am not sure if they are old, but the crypts have some old leaves getting yellowish on the edges (as it could have been moving magnesium around from before) . The vast majority look just fine, so I don't think I need to be worried. However, if I start to see them disintegrating or the chlorosis gets worse, then perhaps I should intervene?
The pogo looks different, yet again, and I think much better. But we will see.
The new tips are a bit yellower (which I had not seen for a while) but when I saw this in the past, they greened up shortly thereafter. I think this is actually proper - please weigh in if its not.
Now for the more interesting stuff: is this old chlorosis going away, or is it just the red color that is throwing us off?
The leaves are less robust, but not needle like:
Except this one:
Ludwigia (to be honest, I've wanted to get rid of this plant since I bought it, but I kept it):
If they looked compact and tight like this, I would be very happy hah.
If those leaves stay petite, I can trim the bush and replant all those tender tops, and probably be happy (the problem is my flow in that area is horrendous - it is right behind the wood statue -- I should really pile up a bunch of aquasoil and plant higher up.
Interesting note the excess potassium did not allow algae to attack my fast growing plants - even Ludwigia (which is slower then rotala), s repens, etc. However, my unhealthy buce was having a persistent issue - it seems that the leaves look like they are getting better ... I wonder if that tiny micro nutrient (forced) deficiency was enough when compounded with slow growing to make the plant weak enough for algal attack. Interesting.
All I dosed daily was EI potassium nitrate + potassium phosphate + daily EI plantex CSM + B with iron as the barometer.
A little bit on ferts: TDS was 77 after water change. Today (about a week let's say later), we are at 133. What constitutes that TDS difference? Obviously ferts, but also organic waste from plants? I run purigen in my filter also. Is an increase in about 50-60 grounds to safely half my ferts?
Side question 1:
I don't want to throw this thread in too too many direction (and I can start a new thread for this part of the post, if it is better), but I want to rip out my sand side plants and front and leave only a tiny bit.
I have a hunch that I should entirely rip it out, add my fluorite/tropica powder, then plant on top. But the lazy part of me wants to just rip out the plants and then top the sand.
Is the fear of anaerobic pockets in this area of the tank (I won't be carpeting with intense rooters to oxygenate the substrate - at least let's not plan on that) too large and I should just rip out the sand and replace it? Or is it not a huge deal just to plunk new substrate on top?
Side question 2:
I need to trim that Rotala bush. Thus far, I have just cut single stems (my entire fishkeeping life) - is it time to literally hack it at a desired level and replant tops elsewhere or inside?
On the note of replanting tops, can I cut the stem twice (so that would mean the bottom and top would be cut) and replant that? That would mean by 2 foot tall rotala could maybe turn into two stems of the desired height?
As always, thanks to anyone reading my thread and helping me along the way. I appreciate it so much.
Josh
FTS:
S. repens has responded well. However, and I am not sure if they are old, but the crypts have some old leaves getting yellowish on the edges (as it could have been moving magnesium around from before) . The vast majority look just fine, so I don't think I need to be worried. However, if I start to see them disintegrating or the chlorosis gets worse, then perhaps I should intervene?
The pogo looks different, yet again, and I think much better. But we will see.
The new tips are a bit yellower (which I had not seen for a while) but when I saw this in the past, they greened up shortly thereafter. I think this is actually proper - please weigh in if its not.
Now for the more interesting stuff: is this old chlorosis going away, or is it just the red color that is throwing us off?
The leaves are less robust, but not needle like:
Except this one:
Ludwigia (to be honest, I've wanted to get rid of this plant since I bought it, but I kept it):
If they looked compact and tight like this, I would be very happy hah.
If those leaves stay petite, I can trim the bush and replant all those tender tops, and probably be happy (the problem is my flow in that area is horrendous - it is right behind the wood statue -- I should really pile up a bunch of aquasoil and plant higher up.
Interesting note the excess potassium did not allow algae to attack my fast growing plants - even Ludwigia (which is slower then rotala), s repens, etc. However, my unhealthy buce was having a persistent issue - it seems that the leaves look like they are getting better ... I wonder if that tiny micro nutrient (forced) deficiency was enough when compounded with slow growing to make the plant weak enough for algal attack. Interesting.
All I dosed daily was EI potassium nitrate + potassium phosphate + daily EI plantex CSM + B with iron as the barometer.
A little bit on ferts: TDS was 77 after water change. Today (about a week let's say later), we are at 133. What constitutes that TDS difference? Obviously ferts, but also organic waste from plants? I run purigen in my filter also. Is an increase in about 50-60 grounds to safely half my ferts?
Side question 1:
I don't want to throw this thread in too too many direction (and I can start a new thread for this part of the post, if it is better), but I want to rip out my sand side plants and front and leave only a tiny bit.
I have a hunch that I should entirely rip it out, add my fluorite/tropica powder, then plant on top. But the lazy part of me wants to just rip out the plants and then top the sand.
Is the fear of anaerobic pockets in this area of the tank (I won't be carpeting with intense rooters to oxygenate the substrate - at least let's not plan on that) too large and I should just rip out the sand and replace it? Or is it not a huge deal just to plunk new substrate on top?
Side question 2:
I need to trim that Rotala bush. Thus far, I have just cut single stems (my entire fishkeeping life) - is it time to literally hack it at a desired level and replant tops elsewhere or inside?
On the note of replanting tops, can I cut the stem twice (so that would mean the bottom and top would be cut) and replant that? That would mean by 2 foot tall rotala could maybe turn into two stems of the desired height?
As always, thanks to anyone reading my thread and helping me along the way. I appreciate it so much.
Josh
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Morning after:
Day 2:
😳 ... that was intense.
The post is 1 day late as I was tired 😛. But in some ways it is cool as you can see the plants don't look as clamped on day 2.
The gory details that I want to share as they would help me if I was reading this thread passing through:
1) it took hours upon hours - I had thrown on some vinyl but when I realized how long I was going to be at this, I quickly switched to these 21st century automated-voice-activated machines.
2) I had a great idea to conserve some Tropica powder and use old fluorite from an old tank. The moment I dropped it in the tank, all my old miracle gro fertilizer floated to the top - the oh #$%! moment. I clearly didn't clean it ... I should have then stopped, rinsed all the substrate, then moved on - but when you're in, you're in.
3) Then I topped it with powder which formed a giant dust cloud and scattered my tank. *I will share retrospect ideas after. The dust covered all of my plants. I had to throw out lots of plants as I could not plant re plant all of those tops - I underestimated how much plant mass I actually had.
Moving forward:
1) The whole reason I didn't drop the water to very little, rip out the substrate, replace it (this would have been MUCH smarter) was because I decided to leave the fish in (bad idea) - I left the fish because I had a constant flow of dechlorinated water entering and tank water leaving the entire process - I figured it would more stressful to rehome the fish temporarily. And, frankly, it probably would have been as the ammonia release from the substrate would have been flushed quite quickly -- the unfortunate part is my tap water comes in at an extremely (artificial) high pH .... ammonia + high pH = death. I lost 3 neons and 1 otto cat. When I realized this, it was too late - I primed 5x dose and continued flushing, repriming as needed.
**** I should have removed the fish, trimmed the plants, pulled them all out, spritzed them on several towels/paper towels, skimmed the top, dropped the water low, replanted, fill it back up, primed, dunked the fish in, Voila.
Instead, I thought that that would be too hard on the plants cracking stems etc -- the constant up and down was harder on everyone ... myself included.
My ammonia has a non-zero reading which is less than .5 - probably around there. The tank is primed and aside from more water changes (which I am torn: Do I do massive water changes daily, or do I let it mellow for a bit) I am just rubbing the leaves and removed floating matter. Ferts are constant, co2 is constant, flow is actually better (and diffuser is cleaner).
My first instinct was to turn my lights down out of fear that I would have a massive algae bloom - but then I made a realization - the sun is likely so high PAR so that nature can deal with things as fast as possible. Further, the plants have EI levels of nutrients + CO2 ... why not blast the lights and get out of the mess asap. They are running 100% for 8 hours (each lights gives 86 micromol at 24 inches); I am probably at least 100 at the substrate. After day 1, there was no noticeable algae. We will see after today.
I am probably going to change some water today - not sure how much - just to get that ammonia out of there. It is very possible that it is not a "temporary ammonia" ... it is likely my old fertilizer tabs that are leaching and the tank is keeping up.
Morning of, several of my neons developed fin rot - secondary infection from compromised immune system - I was worried it would turn into fungus ... this morning it looks better - I can easily heal them through this with clean water + food.
At any rate, let's see if I can get out of this mess.
If anyone can advise me on whether or not to change water moving forward that would be amazing. I think I either do massive daily, wait a week without one, or do one - enough to clean up the leaves - every 2 days ish.
Josh
Day 2:
😳 ... that was intense.
The post is 1 day late as I was tired 😛. But in some ways it is cool as you can see the plants don't look as clamped on day 2.
The gory details that I want to share as they would help me if I was reading this thread passing through:
1) it took hours upon hours - I had thrown on some vinyl but when I realized how long I was going to be at this, I quickly switched to these 21st century automated-voice-activated machines.
2) I had a great idea to conserve some Tropica powder and use old fluorite from an old tank. The moment I dropped it in the tank, all my old miracle gro fertilizer floated to the top - the oh #$%! moment. I clearly didn't clean it ... I should have then stopped, rinsed all the substrate, then moved on - but when you're in, you're in.
3) Then I topped it with powder which formed a giant dust cloud and scattered my tank. *I will share retrospect ideas after. The dust covered all of my plants. I had to throw out lots of plants as I could not plant re plant all of those tops - I underestimated how much plant mass I actually had.
Moving forward:
1) The whole reason I didn't drop the water to very little, rip out the substrate, replace it (this would have been MUCH smarter) was because I decided to leave the fish in (bad idea) - I left the fish because I had a constant flow of dechlorinated water entering and tank water leaving the entire process - I figured it would more stressful to rehome the fish temporarily. And, frankly, it probably would have been as the ammonia release from the substrate would have been flushed quite quickly -- the unfortunate part is my tap water comes in at an extremely (artificial) high pH .... ammonia + high pH = death. I lost 3 neons and 1 otto cat. When I realized this, it was too late - I primed 5x dose and continued flushing, repriming as needed.
**** I should have removed the fish, trimmed the plants, pulled them all out, spritzed them on several towels/paper towels, skimmed the top, dropped the water low, replanted, fill it back up, primed, dunked the fish in, Voila.
Instead, I thought that that would be too hard on the plants cracking stems etc -- the constant up and down was harder on everyone ... myself included.
My ammonia has a non-zero reading which is less than .5 - probably around there. The tank is primed and aside from more water changes (which I am torn: Do I do massive water changes daily, or do I let it mellow for a bit) I am just rubbing the leaves and removed floating matter. Ferts are constant, co2 is constant, flow is actually better (and diffuser is cleaner).
My first instinct was to turn my lights down out of fear that I would have a massive algae bloom - but then I made a realization - the sun is likely so high PAR so that nature can deal with things as fast as possible. Further, the plants have EI levels of nutrients + CO2 ... why not blast the lights and get out of the mess asap. They are running 100% for 8 hours (each lights gives 86 micromol at 24 inches); I am probably at least 100 at the substrate. After day 1, there was no noticeable algae. We will see after today.
I am probably going to change some water today - not sure how much - just to get that ammonia out of there. It is very possible that it is not a "temporary ammonia" ... it is likely my old fertilizer tabs that are leaching and the tank is keeping up.
Morning of, several of my neons developed fin rot - secondary infection from compromised immune system - I was worried it would turn into fungus ... this morning it looks better - I can easily heal them through this with clean water + food.
At any rate, let's see if I can get out of this mess.
If anyone can advise me on whether or not to change water moving forward that would be amazing. I think I either do massive daily, wait a week without one, or do one - enough to clean up the leaves - every 2 days ish.
Josh
Ray
Member
Thanks for sharing 🙂 . If it helps you feel better every time I attempt some kind of rescape like this I end up finishing at 1:30am, exhausted, humbled and wiser...
Catching the fish can be problematic & time consuming, but the upside is once done they are totally fine for days in a food safe bucket with filter running on low and a tea towel over the top to stop jumping. It does take the pressure off you.
Others can chime in but in my opinion if there are fish and there is measurable ammonia I'd run a water change each day that that is the case until it clears. Given this is a mature tank with stems growing, it should hopefully clear quickly. If you have any spare "filter start" solutions lying about now would be a good time to chuck them in too to help things out.
EDIT: how many litres of new Tropica substrate did you add?
Catching the fish can be problematic & time consuming, but the upside is once done they are totally fine for days in a food safe bucket with filter running on low and a tea towel over the top to stop jumping. It does take the pressure off you.
Others can chime in but in my opinion if there are fish and there is measurable ammonia I'd run a water change each day that that is the case until it clears. Given this is a mature tank with stems growing, it should hopefully clear quickly. If you have any spare "filter start" solutions lying about now would be a good time to chuck them in too to help things out.
EDIT: how many litres of new Tropica substrate did you add?
Thanks for sharing - it is good to know it is not just me 🙂.
Just to clarify for my own knowing - the filter running needs to be pre-seeded with bacteria? Or just any old filter (like one in storage without media).
Thanks for this feedback - I was too tired yesterday to even look at the tank. Today, I will run one.
Hmm, what you see on the left is about 2 inches of fluorite (spiked heavy) with maybe an inch of tropica? I had a 9L bag maybe half (or more?) full and I dumped in about 3/4 of that. So maybe 3-6 litres?
Josh
Ray
Member
Any old filter for oxygenation if it's just a few hours, a mature one if you're going to take longer. If you can move your canister over that's best (it needs to be kept running really anyhow) but I've also kept a sponge from a sponge filter in my canister filter for a few weeks to mature it for this purpose before now.
When I added about 1 litre of Tropica substrate to a 17l nano I think it took 2 or 3 days of daily w/c's to clear. You've got a much bigger tank so that will help. Just be wary - I found if you disturb the new substrate for the next 2 or 3 weeks after adding it can release more ammonia all over again.
Thanks Ray! I have often just left my canister filter off and filled - probably for upwards of a few hours (it was probably off for 4? I periodically turned it on in there, just to keep it going. Do you know if anyone has nuked their bacteria population with extended periods of "off" time?
Also, I just dug up a bottle of seachem stability - though I hate this stuff as I have never been convinced it is actually the right bacteria (it would be better if it was Dr. Tims or that yellow bottle) - would this actually help or should I just daily WC and let nature do its thing.
Josh
Ray
Member
I would - in theory it should help seed the new substrate with bacteria and if you have it you might as well give it a shot.
Filter is probably OK for 4 hours.
Anyone know what has happened here? Could you explain what the plant is doing?
New growth looks good. I am wondering if it is magnesium ... or is it simply stress induced from the major transition and I should ignore it.
< This thread > has more photos from my last post on this thread until now.
Just a recap: I ceased all magnesium dosage and relied solely on the tap water for magnesium. With EI daily my other nutrients are piling up.
Josh
EDIT: updated FTS:
New growth looks good. I am wondering if it is magnesium ... or is it simply stress induced from the major transition and I should ignore it.
< This thread > has more photos from my last post on this thread until now.
Just a recap: I ceased all magnesium dosage and relied solely on the tap water for magnesium. With EI daily my other nutrients are piling up.
Josh
EDIT: updated FTS:
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Hi all,
Rotala rotundifolia looks to be quite a <"good "Canary" for iron deficiency">.
I know you have a photo of your Duckweed, could you post it? It could be quite useful as it takes CO2 out of the equation.
I'm not sure about the older leaves, the problem there is that N : P : K and Mg etc are all mobile within the plant so it can potentially export them all from old leaves to new leaves. The good thing about iron is that it is immobile in the plant, so pale new leaves are very likely to be iron deficiency. Deficiencies in older leaves are much more problematic.
I'm using a <"hybrid" Duckweed Index"> at the moment, where I add iron and magnesium on a regular basis and a complete fertiliser based on the <"Leaf Colour Chart">.
cheers Darrel
The pale new leaves on the Rotala look like it might be starting to suffer from iron (Fe) deficiency.
Rotala rotundifolia looks to be quite a <"good "Canary" for iron deficiency">.
I know you have a photo of your Duckweed, could you post it? It could be quite useful as it takes CO2 out of the equation.
I'm not sure about the older leaves, the problem there is that N : P : K and Mg etc are all mobile within the plant so it can potentially export them all from old leaves to new leaves. The good thing about iron is that it is immobile in the plant, so pale new leaves are very likely to be iron deficiency. Deficiencies in older leaves are much more problematic.
I'm using a <"hybrid" Duckweed Index"> at the moment, where I add iron and magnesium on a regular basis and a complete fertiliser based on the <"Leaf Colour Chart">.
cheers Darrel
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Thanks for the response, Darrel.
Certainly, there is some glare from the lights on top too! Getting my feet wet with the duckweed index
.
Regarding the coloring, how can I/we tell if they are pale/pink because of my light spectrum (which is primarily warm white) and the plant degenerating chlorophyll to shield itself or if it is a deficiency.
For the iron dose:
Can I just increase my Plantex CSM + B dose to get the iron - or will micro nutrient pile up be an issue? I can mix up some purely iron solutions. I am already dosing .1 ppm of iron daily, however.
I could go to alternate EI instead of EI daily spaced out by 10 hours instead (if you think the dosages are interfering?).
Do we ignore those old leaves that seem to be deteriorating/getting chlorosis?
Josh
EDIT: I also took those shots above at lights off. Here is a shot from right now:
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
Looking at the Lemna that look pretty conclusively an <"iron deficiency issue">.
You can. The issue with iron is nearly always availability, so it might depend a little bit on <"the chelator">.
cheers Darrel
Excellent - power of floaters.
Moving forward:
The chelator in both the Plantex and my other iron is EDTA and my pH during the dosage is in the 6's.
How much more do I start by adding - just double it and watch?
And use my micro mix or a seperate iron?
Also, will phosphate concentration in water column interfere with availability? In other words, if my phosphates are high, will I need a higher iron dose to compensate?
Thanks again Darrel!
Josh
