Cycling confusion

[_Maq_]

Do you have a rough estimate of how long they will survive?

I believe plants are routinely stored at local shops for a week or two. Add to that transport from the manufacturer. So, a few days are probably safe. After that, no guarantee. It depends on many variables.

Ideally I would like to place them in my tank all at once, rather than add them as they arrive.

Majority of hobbyists (incl. here on UKAPS) recommend planting as many plants as possible at the first strike. The reasoning goes that a huge mass of plants would overcome the adversities of a new tank easier.
I - again - represent a minority voice. I've got my doubts about it. I believe that re-planted plants need time (a few days, a week, some even longer) before they overcome their own difficulties and their contribution to the tank's environment turns net-positive. Par example, a few days after re-planting they respire more than photosynthesize. (This is not my idea, I've read some scientific papers on the topic.) I'd describe this situation as introducing too many patients and no doctors.
I think the truth is somewhere in-between. Floating plants are likely to adapt faster. Also, often recommended "undemanding fast-growing stem plants" recover quickly and turn from patients to doctors. On the other hand, there are good reasons not to hurry with introducing more sensitive plants - both sensitive species and individuals, like tiny plantlets from tissue culture.
In short, I don't think that "planting straight as many plants as you can" is a universally valid rule which you cannot break. A more nuanced approach may lead to better results.

 

[Aly14]

I believe plants are routinely stored at local shops for a week or two. Add to that transport from the manufacturer. So, a few days are probably safe. After that, no guarantee. It depends on many variables.

Majority of hobbyists (incl. here on UKAPS) recommend planting as many plants as possible at the first strike. The reasoning goes that a huge mass of plants would overcome the adversities of a new tank easier.
I - again - represent a minority voice. I've got my doubts about it. I believe that re-planted plants need time (a few days, a week, some even longer) before they overcome their own difficulties and their contribution to the tank's environment turns net-positive. Par example, a few days after re-planting they respire more than photosynthesize. (This is not my idea, I've read some scientific papers on the topic.) I'd describe this situation as introducing too many patients and no doctors.
I think the truth is somewhere in-between. Floating plants are likely to adapt faster. Also, often recommended "undemanding fast-growing stem plants" recover quickly and turn from patients to doctors. On the other hand, there are good reasons not to hurry with introducing more sensitive plants - both sensitive species and individuals, like tiny plantlets from tissue culture.
In short, I don't think that "planting straight as many plants as you can" is a universally valid rule which you cannot break. A more nuanced approach may lead to better results.

What causes them to respire more? Is it the shock of a new environment? If they're respiring more, would they release more CO2 thereby increasing the acidity in the tank? If the pH is lowered, I would assume this would have a negative impact on plants. Also, would this mean they would expend more energy than they consume, possibly resulting in reduced growth an increased susceptibility to disease. So if a plant adapts quicker, they can start producing more oxygen, and remove more toxins, which would in turn help the growth of more sensitive plants i.e. they become the doctor.

If I start with more adaptable, hardy plants, how do I then later plant more sensitive plants? Would I need to drain the tank in order to plant them, or can they be planted in water? For someone who has never planted in water, that seems a little difficult. Also, when would be the best time to glue epiphytic plants to driftwood? Can it be done if it's wet?

Sorry for all the questions. When I think I'm done, I seem to keep coming up with more.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What causes them to respire more? ....Also, would this mean they would expend more energy than they consume, possibly resulting in reduced growth an increased susceptibility to disease. So if a plant adapts quicker, they can start producing more oxygen

Yes, more CO2. It could be microbial respiration because of the damaged / dead / dying leaf tissue, but you also have the reduction in oxygen production because the plants aren't photosynthesising. As soon as the plants are in active growth photosynthesis will be a net oxygen producer.

If they're respiring more, would they release more CO2 thereby increasing the acidity in the tank?

Net there will be more CO2, but you would need quite a lot of extra CO2 to reduce the pH. The exact relationship between pH and CO2 would depend upon the alkalinity (dKH) of the water.

Also, when would be the best time to glue epiphytic plants to driftwood? Can it be done if it's wet?

Yes, cyanoacrylate superglue is cured by moisture. Wet will cure quicker, but you would need a gel formulation to avoid white streaks.

cheers Darrel

 

[AlecF]

To plant in water, (1) roll sleeves up, (2) optional, start a water change, (3) stick arm in tank and plant the plant, (4) remove arm and dry vigorously. You'll be fine. I am not sure we ever know for sure what our delicate plants will be, it depends so much on our wee ecology, water, "luck". This site is filled with one person finding a plant easy that ten people find difficult.

 

[LMuhlen]

What causes them to respire more? Is it the shock of a new environment? If they're respiring more, would they release more CO2 thereby increasing the acidity in the tank? If the pH is lowered, I would assume this would have a negative impact on plants.

What I got from @_Maq_ 's comment is that when plants are first introduced, they would be adapting themselves to the environment and consuming their "food reserves" instead of creating more food. That would be why they would be releasing more CO2.

But the pH drop from increased CO2 by plant transpiration, even if it were significative, is probably more welcome than not. Most of us inject CO2 into the tank to boost up the plants and aim for very high pH drops.

 

[_Maq_]

What causes them to respire more?

Healing wounds. Re-creating roots. Adjusting tissue liquids to changed outer environment. Reshuffling amino-acids into new, more suitable set of proteins.

 

[Aly14]

Usually you glue outside the tank and then place in it when it has dried, which takes 10 mins. If you had an ayirstone to the bucket it will help.

Would this mean I would need to remove my hardscape from the tank? Would this not disturb the substrate?

Hi all,

Yes, more CO2. It could be microbial respiration because of the damaged / dead / dying leaf tissue, but you also have the reduction in oxygen production because the plants aren't photosynthesising. As soon as the plants are in active growth photosynthesis will be a net oxygen producer.

Net there will be more CO2, but you would need quite a lot of extra CO2 to reduce the pH. The exact relationship between pH and CO2 would depend upon the alkalinity (dKH) of the water.

Yes, cyanoacrylate superglue is cured by moisture. Wet will cure quicker, but you would need a gel formulation to avoid white streaks.

cheers Darrel

Cheers for all that information. My knowledge on aquatic plants is very rudimentary. I really do love learning more about them.

In terms of the glue, I have purchased Seachem Flourish Glue. Would this glue do the job?

To plant in water, (1) roll sleeves up, (2) optional, start a water change, (3) stick arm in tank and plant the plant, (4) remove arm and dry vigorously. You'll be fine. I am not sure we ever know for sure what our delicate plants will be, it depends so much on our wee ecology, water, "luck". This site is filled with one person finding a plant easy that ten people find difficult.

Thanks for that, it made me laugh. What you have said makes sense. I think I'll just have to work it out as go.

What I got from @_Maq_ 's comment is that when plants are first introduced, they would be adapting themselves to the environment and consuming their "food reserves" instead of creating more food. That would be why they would be releasing more CO2.

But the pH drop from increased CO2 by plant transpiration, even if it were significative, is probably more welcome than not. Most of us inject CO2 into the tank to boost up the plants and aim for very high pH drops.

That does make a lot sense. My knowledge on aquatic plants is very rudimentary and I am drawing on what I learnt in high school biology (which was a very long time ago). I appreciate your explanation.

Healing wounds. Re-creating roots. Adjusting tissue liquids to changed outer environment. Reshuffling amino-acids into new, more suitable set of proteins.

So there is not just one reason, but there could be numerous ones. That makes sense. Thank you.

 

[AlecF]

You are asking good questions. It is possible to do quite a lot of rescaping once a tank is running. I've even removed soil and replaced. It makes a mess. Fish don't like it. But with serious water changes and cleaning the filter most things are possible. The one issue can be if you have a substrate that will leech something harmful – I now use dirted tanks not aquasoil and haven't found that causes fatalities. Removing some hardscape to glue should be possible. If you are adding small plants, like buce, you could also glue them to small pieces of wood, in addition. You can also tie plants on with various things, like fishing line, though I find that fussy. You can sometimes wedge plants in gaps. Personally I use local wood, twigs, and so I can add and remove with ease.

 

[bazz]

Would it be fine to drain it down to the substrate? I was hoping to glue some plants to some driftwood and rocks. I have read glue hardens when in contact with water. I was having a hard time trying to figure out how to do that under water.

Yes, as long as there aren't any fish in there. You can drain just enough water so you have access to your hardscape and then refill, you are only effectively doing a water change. We all change out and trim/replant mostly when the water level is lower but also occasionally while the tank is full. Cyanoacrylate glue will harden in 5 - 10 seconds on wet hardscape.

 

[erwin123]

I'm not exactly sure how aquatic stem plants are sold in the UK. If they are all sold in emersed form or tissue culture, they will definitely need time to adapt and may not be that helpful in cycling a tank until they have adjusted - but for the 'easy' stems we are talking about a couple of days to adapt, not weeks.

In my country many stem plants are sold in submersed form. Either bagged and sold in LFS or straight from the plant farm from concrete tanks exposed to the elements and sunlight. Even stems that are classified as "medium" difficulty like M. Tuberculatum come from these open-air concrete tanks. In this form, they are pretty much ready to start growing and sucking up the NH4+ and NO3 from the get-go.

 

[Aly14]

You are asking good questions. It is possible to do quite a lot of rescaping once a tank is running. I've even removed soil and replaced. It makes a mess. Fish don't like it. But with serious water changes and cleaning the filter most things are possible. The one issue can be if you have a substrate that will leech something harmful – I now use dirted tanks not aquasoil and haven't found that causes fatalities. Removing some hardscape to glue should be possible. If you are adding small plants, like buce, you could also glue them to small pieces of wood, in addition. You can also tie plants on with various things, like fishing line, though I find that fussy. You can sometimes wedge plants in gaps. Personally I use local wood, twigs, and so I can add and remove with ease.

Thank you. I'm kind of knowledge hungry. When I find a topic I'm interested in, I want to know as much as possible. This usually leads to numerous questions. The piece of driftwood I want to attach plants to, is really large. I currently have it soaking in a 52L tank, and it doesn't completely fit in there. I worry if I were to remove it from my tank, it will disturb a large amount of my substrate, and any plants I might have planted previously. I want to attach moss to it, and tuck plants into gaps/holes. I think if I were to use fishing line I'd make a huge mess. After allowing my more hardy plants to establish, is it possible to drain a large amount of my tank, allowing my driftwood to dry a little, and then attach the moss with glue?

Yes, as long as there aren't any fish in there. You can drain just enough water so you have access to your hardscape and then refill, you are only effectively doing a water change. We all change out and trim/replant mostly when the water level is lower but also occasionally while the tank is full. Cyanoacrylate glue will harden in 5 - 10 seconds on wet hardscape.

I won't have any fish in there. I'm not planning on adding any fish until I have largely finished planting all my plants.
I heard it hardens quickly, but I didn't realise it was that fast. I'll need to move quickly then 😀

 

[AlecF]

If you have no fish in then removing the wood is not really a big issue. Just do a water change after. The task – gluing – will take you an hour or so at most and the existing plants will be fine. You needn't take all the water out. Be aware there glue can leave unsightly white marks. Maybe watch some videos of this task. The bit where you tuck plants into holes can easily be done when it's in the tank. Basically when there is no livestock in a tank everything is simple.

 

[Aly14]

View attachment 210188


I'm not exactly sure how aquatic stem plants are sold in the UK. If they are all sold in emersed form or tissue culture, they will definitely need time to adapt and may not be that helpful in cycling a tank until they have adjusted - but for the 'easy' stems we are talking about a couple of days to adapt, not weeks.

In my country many stem plants are sold in submersed form. Either bagged and sold in LFS or straight from the plant farm from concrete tanks exposed to the elements and sunlight. Even stems that are classified as "medium" difficulty like M. Tuberculatum come from these open-air concrete tanks. In this form, they are pretty much ready to start growing and sucking up the NH4+ and NO3 from the get-go.

Here in Australia, I have only seen them sold as tissue culture or in submersed form. The submersed plants are kept in aquariums. These I can purchase from my LFS and some larger pet stores. I haven't seen large concrete tabs like the ones in your picture. My LFS does have something that looks similar, but it's on a much smaller scale. I think they mostly keep floating plants in there. There is also the option to purchase plants online from interstate. I'd think they would be in emmersed form to help survive the trip. How do you think aquarium submersed plants would compare to the ones that come from the concrete tubs?

 

[erwin123]

Here in Australia, I have only seen them sold as tissue culture or in submersed form. The submersed plants are kept in aquariums. These I can purchase from my LFS and some larger pet stores. I haven't seen large concrete tabs like the ones in your picture. My LFS does have something that looks similar, but it's on a much smaller scale. I think they mostly keep floating plants in there. There is also the option to purchase plants online from interstate. I'd think they would be in emmersed form to help survive the trip. How do you think aquarium submersed plants would compare to the ones that come from the concrete tubs?

sure thats totally fine. Here are some photos from some local LFS (1st one is "East Ocean", 2nd one is "Rainbow Green", 3rd photo is "Fishy Business").

 

[Aly14]

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sure thats totally fine. Here are some photos from some local LFS (1st one is "East Ocean", 2nd one is "Rainbow Green", 3rd photo is "Fishy Business").

Wow, that is incredible. I haven't seen anything like that here. We have perhaps one aquarium, and it's small. Perhaps in the larger states, they might stock more, but here it's a fraction of the size. I feel like I might be somewhat limited in what I can buy. I'm very jealous of the range of plants you have.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Seachem Flourish Glue

That should be fine. You just need a gel formulation of cyanoacrylate super glue.

allowing my driftwood to dry a little, and then attach the moss with glue?

Don't let the wood dry too far and keep spraying the moss <"and Java fern">, (if you are using it?) with water as you go along.

I've given up trying to attach my "epiphytes", they mainly just grow in a <"big tangled mass where the current leaves them">, but if I do? I glue (or <"staple">) a couple of plants, submerge the wood, do a couple more, submerge the wood etc.

My LFS does have something that looks similar, but it's on a much smaller scale. I think they mostly keep floating plants in there.

That is one of the reasons <"I like a floating plant">, there isn't ever the question of whether it has been grown emersed etc. The downside is they don't really oxygenate the water, all their gas exchange happens via the stomata on the upper leaf surface.

cheers Darrel

 

[Aly14]

Don't let the wood dry too far and keep spraying the moss <"and Java fern">, (if you are using it?) with water as you go along.

I've given up trying to attach my "epiphytes", they mainly just grow in a <"big tangled mass where the current leaves them">, but if I do? I glue (or <"staple">) a couple of plants, submerge the wood, do a couple more, submerge the wood etc.

How quickly does the moss dry out? I would like to use Java fern. I hope I can find some.

That is one of the reasons <"I like a floating plant">, there isn't ever the question of whether it has been grown emersed etc. The downside is they don't really oxygenate the water, all their gas exchange happens via the stomata on the upper leaf surface.

I was wondering if they inhibit surface agitation and therefore reduce the overall gas exchange in the tank? Also, do they reduce the amount of light the plants below recieve? I know there are benefits to adding them to a tank, which makes me wonder if there is an optimal coverage?

 

[AlecF]

Don't worry too much, everything will become clear. Accept the paradox, some floating plants its good, you'll eventually be pulling out hands full, they are a good indication of how things are, and you can adjust your spray bar if you have one to try and balance surface agitation and the plants preferences. Trial and error, no need to worry. Just spray things when they look dry, during the gluing process.

 

[_Maq_]

I was wondering if they inhibit surface agitation and therefore reduce the overall gas exchange in the tank?

Not only that! They prevent gas exchange through the surface they occupy. In nature, large mats of floating plants can make the underlying water deprived of all oxygen and therefore dead.

 

[Aly14]

Not only that! They prevent gas exchange through the surface they occupy. In nature, large mats of floating plants can make the underlying water deprived of all oxygen and therefore dead.

Do you think there is a happy medium, whereby you can still include floating plants, and not have too many detrimental effects? Are there any floating plants that grow slowly? Or potentially any that don't grow so densely, allowing for gas exchange, and light to still reach plants below? Or do you avoid them completely?