Cyanobacteria problems

[dw1305]

Hi all,

You seem to be the expert around here so I'll take your word for it, so without test kits how do you keep track of nitrates with sensitive fish? I plan on getting some mikrogeophagus ramirezi when the scape fills in and apparently they don't like nitrates above 20 ppm?

I'll nip in before Clive, but the real answer is that this is only really relevant to the fish when NO3 is the "smoking gun" from high ammonia (and NO2-) levels. The main difference in planted tanks is that the level of NO3 falls over time, rather than increasing. Basically a large growing plant mass ensures good water quality.

The second problem is testing for anions such as PO4--- and NO3-, it just isn't possible to get accurate and repeatable values without some very expensive analytical kit. This doesn't particularly matter, you can use plant health as an indicator of nutrient status. This is how I came upon the technique I've called "Duckweed Index", it is ideal for more sensitive fish, because it combines some plant growth with maintaining very high quality water. Have a look at these posts: <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society>, <Low maintainence, long term sustrate | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

Lastly if you are new to Rams, I highly recommend them as fish, but I'd be wary of buying them from a commercial retailer, and I'd have a look at Bob Wiltshire's site before purchase: <Dwarf Cichlid Aquarium Care> & <Mikrogeophagusramirezi The Ram Cichlid>.

cheers Darrel

 

[All butter shortbread]

Cool, thanks for all the links

Seemed a bit strange that Dwarfcichlid.com suggested using straight RO water for water changes though. I've heard almost universally both that this is super unstable as it has no buffering capacity and that fish certain minerals (or something like that?) in the water and that even soft water fish can't thrive in pure RO. I've read on various other forums that the only way to prevent a huge PH swing in the tank when using straight RO is by doing big daily water changes?

Really just repeating what I've read elsewhere though as I've never tried using straight RO water.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I've heard almost universally both that this is super unstable as it has no buffering capacity and that fish certain minerals (or something like that?) in the water and that even soft water fish can't thrive in pure RO. I've read on various other forums that the only way to prevent a huge PH swing in the tank when using straight RO is by doing big daily water changes?

This is another case where a lot of the information given on the web isn't totally correct. The problem is really with the pH scale, it measure a ratio and this uses this as a proxy for the acidity or alkalinity of a solution, this means that 2 pH readings of the same pH6 value could be from solutions of very different nature. As we approach pure H2O (like RO) pH becomes a basically meaningless measurement as even small changes in the acid:base ration cause huge changes in pH. Where changes in pH aren't caused by large changes in water chemistry they don't effect the biota. People who inject CO2 will drop the pH of the tank water from ~pH7.8 to pH6 every day, without causing any problems to their fish.

I'm a scientist, and I though t I knew all about pH, but I didn't really understand this until a colleague explained in terms that I could understand.

I'll pass you over to "Apistogramma forums" & BCA forums, where there is quite a lot of discussion of maintaining fish in very soft water.
. <Keeping low pH | Apistogramma.com> & <British Cichlid Association • The place to talk about the Cichlids in our Aquaria>.

cheers Darrel

 

[ceg4048]

You seem to be the expert around here so I'll take your word for it, so without test kits how do you keep track of nitrates with sensitive fish? I plan on getting some mikrogeophagus ramirezi when the scape fills in and apparently they don't like nitrates above 20 ppm?

It's exactly as Darrel mentions. Ramirezi really do not care about nitrate levels. Nitrate is nature way of actually detoxifying the environment. The detoxification process begins with the oxidation of the extremely toxic ammonia, which is turned into the highly toxic nitrite (NO2). So NO3 is the "smoking gun", a relatively non-toxic compound whose presence indicates that the fish have been exposed to ammonia and nitrite. By the time NO3 is in the water column, it's already too late. The damage has already been done. Also, the bacteria responsible for these conversions require huge amounts of Oxygen to complete the Oxidation process, therefore, Oxygen, which is already typically in short supply, is stolen from the fish and that is what kills M. ramirezi. You really don't need to worry about pH or RO or nitrate.

Plants are so effective at uptaking ammonia/ammonium and NO3 that often, under high lighting and CO2 enrichment such as you have, the level of NO3 actually falls below the minimum threshold resulting in starvation. That's when algae appears. So it's necessary to add NO3 or ammonium to the tank to feed the plants. If you check your fertilizer bottle's ingredient list, it should tell you how the Nitrogen is derived. Often, with commercial mixes it's via ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) or Urea ((CO)NH2)2), which breaks down into ammonium and CO2. Because there are only very small amounts of these compounds in the bottle, it's necessary to add more than what the bottle suggests in order to satisfy the uptake demand of the plants.

I prefer to avoid using ammonium or urea for my dosing, even though these deliver much more Nitrogen per unit weight than a simple nitrate salt such as Potassium Nitrate (KNO3). When a nitrate salt is added to the water, there is no bacterial action against the NO3 compound. Therefore there is no Oxygen robbing and the abundance of NO3 allows the plant to produce much more Oxygen, whcih is fed to the water and sediment.

So there is every reason the add NO3 and to not worry about NO3 levels harming sensitive fish. These are all myths based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the chemistry occurring in the tank.

If you wish to learn more about unlimited dosing then check the Tutorial => EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,

 

[All butter shortbread]

The fert I'm using does contains both NO3 and ammonium, but I think I'll have a crack
at EI. Your tutorial was very helpful on this, thanks.

btw the way, do you know of any sites that show the actual contents of tropical fertiliser? I Would be interested to know how much I'm actually dosing of everything

Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out with this, so glad I joined this forum!

 

[ceg4048]

Hello,
Glad you find the information useful. Before they changed the product name to be more in line with the multicolored perfume pump bottle mentality of their competition, the product was simply called TPN+. There is a possibility that the ingredients are almost exactly the same. Have a look at James' Planted Tank - All In One Solution and you'll see what it used to be and what it ought to be reasonably close to now.

Cheers,

 

[All butter shortbread]

Cool, thanks.

Unfortunately BGA seems to be making a slow comeback despite trebling my dose of fertiliser so I'm really confused about what is going on now.

Should I just keep increasing the dose?

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
Increase the dose (presumably you are doing a daily dose or multiple doses per week?), but also look at your distribution. It could easily be that the flow at the bottom is poor. It would be helpful if we could see either an image of your setup or a diagram of how you pump outputs are arranged. Also, did you reduce the light intensity by disabling a bulb?

Also, when was the last time you cleaned your filter?

Cheers,

 

[All butter shortbread]

Currently Dosing daily. Will increase the dose.

I can see my eleocharis flowing fairly violently in the water around the area where thew cyano is appearing - strong enough to pull the odd it of eleocharis or bacopa out of the ground. I need to register on photo bucket or something first before I can post a picture, but currently I have the spray bar and supporting circulation pump at the top of the left wall of the tank, and the inlet at the bottom of the left wall

I haven't removed a bulb as it stands. I was thinking that as the cyano appears to be appearing mostly near the front glass It might be to do with the lighting in the room? There no direct sunlight on the tank but the room is brightly lit by sky lights most of the day.

I last cleaned my filter couple days ago

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
Too much flow or turbulent flow is not good either. If there is enough flow to uproot plants then that could be problematic. If it's at the front glass only then try using strips of black electrical tape across the front glass to block the ambient light from penetrating. Move the pump to different locations along the wall or try mounting the outlets along the back wall.

Cheers,

 

[All butter shortbread]

Changing the outlet position means having to drill a new hole in my stand and I don't like using power tools near my fish tank if I can
help It. My powerhead is adjustable so I'll try reducing the turnover slightly first and see if that helps.

Will try the electrical tape thing and if it works I might just move the tank to a darker room - Electrical Tape doesn't seem like a particularly attractive long term solution!

Thanks,

 

[Andy Thurston]

Will try the electrical tape thing and if it works I might just move the tank to a darker room - Electrical Tape doesn't seem like a particularly attractive long term solution!

If you dont want to move the tank you could find some trim to match the stand

 

[All butter shortbread]

If you dont want to move the tank you could find some trim to match the stand

Great idea! Not sure what the best material would be to use though. I'll give it a google

 

[niru]

Great idea! Not sure what the best material would be to use though. I'll give it a google

As Clive said, periodically clean filters. Next WC you do, hoover the substrate and physically remove the BGA by scrapping.. Apart from NO3 issues, BGA thrieves in dirtier substrates full of organic gunk. Lack of oxygen is also a reason for BGA.

In worst cases try blackout method. But basic husbandry always helps.


Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[All butter shortbread]

I already Hoover the substrate very thoroughly once a week and currently I clean my filter once a month.

Would it be worth having a bubble counter running at night to increase oxygen levels? My fish aren't gasping at the surface or anything like that but I have very little surface agitation and my CO2 is about as high as it can safely be

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Would it be worth having a bubble counter running at night to increase oxygen levels? My fish aren't gasping at the surface or anything like that but I have very little surface agitation and my CO2 is about as high as it can safely be

I'd always have some form of extra aeration at night if you have the CO2 running 24/7? It doesn't have to be an air stone, faster flow will increase aeration as well, so you could have power-head and venturi or an internal etc running on a time switch.

I already Hoover the substrate very thoroughly once a week and currently I clean my filter once a month.

I always associate BGA with some form of organic pollutant as well. I know they aren't to every-ones taste, but a sponge pre-filter on the intake is a really good way of making filter maintenance easier: <Pre filter foam for intakes | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel

 

[All butter shortbread]

a sponge pre-filter on the intake is a really good way of making filter maintenance easier

My intake is obscured by plants anyway so that should work well.
My CO2 is on a solenoid and levels seem to stay safe throughout the night but as I already have a pump & air stone I might as well use it. Unfortunately I Am away from my tank for ten days so It'll to be interesting to see whether or not it's been destroyed by Cyano when I get back!

 

[petr nehyba]

Hi everyone. Thanks for this great forum. Im just finishing cycling my 60l tank and fighting Cyano. I`v red all stuff about it here. Started dosing NO3 and PO4 as never did that before and today applied some hydrogen peroxide on the Cyano itself. Just worring now about my bio filter which is almost done by now. Amonia 0, No2 0.1 after 24 hours dousing 5PPM amonia. Is there a big risk I killed my BB in the bio filter applying Hydrogen Peroxide?! I didnt switched off the filter actually 🙁 i put about 25Ml into 60l tank. thanks

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Amonia 0, No2 0.1 after 24 hours dousing 5PPM amonia.

Stop adding the ammonia, it doesn't do any good at all. Have a look at this thread <Should I fishless cycle a new planted tank? | UK Aquatic Plant Society>. Also you can't measure levels of NH3(NH4+), NO2- or NO3- accurately with any of the kits available to us, it is difficult even with dedicated lab equipment.

Is there a big risk I killed my BB in the bio filter applying Hydrogen Peroxide?! I didnt switched off the filter actually 🙁 i put about 25Ml into 60l tank.

Probably not because of the dilution effect, but H2O2 is an oxidizing agent. This means that if a high enough concentration of H2O2 reached the filter bacteria they would be sterilized.

cheers Darrel

 

[petr nehyba]

Thanks Darrel.
Before I saw this post I decided to try if my BB survived. Added 2ppm ammonia and measured NO2 after 10Hours. Seems the first bacteria group turning ammonia to NO2 survived and do the work. Will see tomorr morning if the No2 drops as well. If not, my fault anyway but no fish gonna suffer 🙂 plants hopefully will manage this my stepping aside. The tank was almost cycled but just almost. the No2 was always detectable even very litlle and visible just from the top against the white paper. I got u concerning measuring and I red a lot from ceg4048 too but still it worries me if No2 still visible on the nutrafin test. Concerning the Algae, there was a small water flow (just recently fixed) there was low No3 and low PO4. Dosing those daily now. Also according what`s been said here, Im not to worried to overdose, especially No3. Using the expensive liquid Syntesis aquavitro (ammoniacal, nitrate, organic nitrogen). Planning to get dry fert but not sure where about in UK yet. More research again. Hope its gonna solve the Cyano issue. Concerning pure Ammonia, I dosed too much from the beginning. I mean I dosed over 7ppm daily for almost one and half month. That didnt help with Algae either 🙁 I hope Il manage to fix this tank and get fish in soon although I`m not big fun of fish-cycling. Will see how I will do my next big Discuss tank concerning cycling, will need to do more research about it. I like the idea of fish-less cycling and If the ammonia will be add like 2ppm, should that not be ok?!

my tank is 54l, CO2 from fermentation+liquid carbon, 30W (4000+18000K). Started dosing No3 round 30-50ppm daily, Po4 1ppm daily. Easylife 5mll 2x a week. As said will try to get dry fert. Flora: echinodorus barthii, hygrophila mini, eleocharis acicularis, ludwiga rubin, echinodorus magdalenensis, salicifolia rubra, new zelandia (this one is not doing great at the moment)...I think its rather moderate planting?

Well I didnt put any question into the forum but rather left it open in case you would have any suggestions or advices.
Thanks a lot for all those great articles around here and for coming back to me, much appreciated!

will let you know how H2O2 worked out and how the Cyano problem looks like. thanks

Petr