Cyanobacteria Identification - At Last!

[jaypeecee]

Oscillatoria uses N in the production of Anatoxin otherwise known as Very Fast Death Factor...

Hi @X3NiTH

Many thanks for your input. I referred to the serious toxicity issue in post #3 above. When I discovered the term 'Very Fast Death Factor', I was gobsmacked! This seemed to be very relevant to what I'd witnessed with my GBRs and Panda Garras. There they all were one day - the epitome of health and about three days later, they were all dead. What could have happened? I could no longer afford to pay lip service to this thing called BGA.

I would welcome your further inputs in trying to remedy this problem. My background is in the field of electronics, not microbiology. I need all the help I can get. Please keep the suggestions coming.

JPC

 

[Nick72]

I used SL Aqua Z2 to eradicate Blue / Green algae (Cyanobacteria).

Using the recommended dose and leaving in the tank for one week, before a water change, and my BGA was 100% gone.

Unfortunately I can't recommend SL Aqua Z2 as four days after said water change all my plants were dead.

I believe the plants died due to a tap water contamination, but I can't discount that the SL Aqua Z2 also played a role.

 

[jaypeecee]

I used SL Aqua Z2 to eradicate Blue / Green algae (Cyanobacteria).

Using the recommended dose and leaving in the tank for one week, before a water change, and my BGA was 100% gone.

Unfortunately I can't recommend SL Aqua Z2 as four days after said water change all my plants were dead.

I believe the plants died due to a tap water contamination, but I can't discount that the SL Aqua Z2 also played a role.

Hi @Nick72

It's too much of a coincidence that, following use of SL Aqua Z2, all your plants were dead. It's ironic, isn't it, that this product is marketed as a 'Plant Protector'! I don't go for these magic potions with no information about the active ingredient(s). It gives the customer no useful information on which to decide if a product has any chance of being effective. Waste of money.

JPC

 

[Nick72]

Hi @Nick72

It's too much of a coincidence that, following use of SL Aqua Z2, all your plants were dead. It's ironic, isn't it, that this product is marketed as a 'Plant Protector'! I don't go for these magic potions with no information about the active ingredient(s). It gives the customer no useful information on which to decide if a product has any chance of being effective. Waste of money.

JPC

Yes, you are probably correct.

It would have been more clear cut without the next water change dropping my PH to 5.6. That in itself was very strange and I can't rule out this for the death of my plants.

Unfortunately I haven't found anyone else who has used SL Aqua Z2, to either say it worked fine or did harm to their aquarium.

 

[X3NiTH]

Made from natural extracts and can also treat hydra and planaria, so possibly contains Betel or Neem.

I’ve been reading up a little and it would appear that overdosing manganese sends cyano on its way out. Once up taken it has to expend energy transporting it and storing it, the more there is the more it has to transport and store. The Mn levels for lethality we’re around 10-40ppm (not yet looked at the consequences for this overdose on plants and livestock).

Trying to limit growth by reducing Fe availability causes cyano to switch to siderophore production to sequester non biologically active Fe by releasing proteins that can chelate the Iron and make it bioavailable again, there doesn’t appear to be consensus whether Anatoxin and Microcystin have chelating abilities. So an increase in bioavailable Fe may reduce the possibility of excretion of proteins.

 

[jaypeecee]

I’ve been reading up a little and it would appear that overdosing manganese sends cyano on its way out. Once up taken it has to expend energy transporting it and storing it, the more there is the more it has to transport and store. The Mn levels for lethality we’re around 10-40ppm (not yet looked at the consequences for this overdose on plants and livestock).

Hi @X3NiTH

Many thanks for the input.

However, I can't see how we can point a finger at manganese. If the range of toxicity to cyanobacteria is from 10-40 ppm of manganese, then there would be little chance of cyano survival if, for example, using TNC Complete or Seachem Flourish. These contain 180 ppm and 118 ppm Mn, respectively.

And, what I've learned is that the different species of cyano are very different in a whole range of ways. For example, some are nitrogen-fixing and some aren't. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to pin down the ID of the stuff in my tank. To the best of my ability, I believe it to be Oscillatoria.

JPC

 

[Ray]

Interesting research - good work. Fact that there are so many kinds of BGA maybe explains why solutions one person swears by doesn’t work for another. I had problems with it years ago in my sand and after trying super dosing and boosting flow for a few weeks to try and eradicate it I got frustrated (was tearing my hair out!) and picked up an appropriate antibiotic while on a trip to the US. That did the trick.

Did you try Phyton-Git, which is also supposed to do the trick?

 

[X3NiTH]

Hi @jaypeecee you are confusing the numbers, you have stated the bottle total amounts for both these products, not the resultant total in the receiving water volume when using the dosing instructions. My DIY every other day dose for Mn is 0.05ppm resultant in the total tank water volume which is richer in Mn than both TNC and FComp. To overdose FComp to 11.8ppm Mn in the tank water would require 1L of FComp for every 10L of water which is many magnitudes higher than the dosing instructions on the bottle.

10-40ppm of Mn is a significant amount of Mn , if it were Calcium that would represent a dGH of 1.4 - 5.6.

In the papers I read the salt used for overdosing was Manganese Chloride probably because it was less likely to form precipitates with other elements present than say using the Sulphate of Manganese (I use this in my trace mix but in quantities where the sulphates aren’t problematical for precipitation).

Whether the Cyano fixes N or not makes no difference it will uptake it as already fixed nutrients through Nitrate and Ammonia and if bioavailable Iron is low then will utilise it to scavenge for Iron through siderophore production. In favourable Fe conditions with no siderophore production Cyano will use 250 atoms of N for every 1 atom of Fe uptaken, in unfavourable conditions and using siderophores, for every 1 atom of Fe (not bioavailable) it requires 14,000 ATP molecules (ATP has 5 atoms of N for every molecule so 70,000 atoms of N needed). When using siderophores nutrient transport is across thin films so still stagnant water needed to allow this to happen, increasing flow carries away the proteins from the surface of the cyano so it reduces the chance to uptake what it catches (unless it comes back around again for instance in a closed environment like an aquarium). So it’s not surprising to see out in the wild that Cyano Blooms typically goes toxic in environments where there is agricultural pollution and little rainfall to keep the supply of free Iron entering a system, once the water goes still and the Iron becomes unbioavailable it starts production of siderophore proteins to get to the Iron.

🙂

 

[zozo]

There once was a scientific paper online from the German Humbold University from Dr Steinberg with a study on Humic substances (Tannins) in freshwater. He once stated in an interview, you can not have enough of it in your aquarium, for several beneficial health reasons... 🙂

The study revealed also that it has a rather diminishing effect on the development of Cyanobacteria.

Unfortunately, the study paper is no longer online atm. At least i can not find it anymore with the links i bookmarked.

Anyway, instead of filtering over Active Carbon to get clearer water, people should stop doing that and drop-in leaf litter and or Alder cones in their tanks and enjoy tannin-stained water... Especially if you suffer from Cyanobacteria...

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @jaypeecee you are confusing the numbers, you have stated the bottle total amounts for both these products, not the resultant total in the receiving water volume when using the dosing instructions.

Hi @X3NiTH

Just as well you're on hand to correct my error!

Thanks very much.

JPC

 

[X3NiTH]

The study revealed also that it has a rather diminishing effect on the development of Cyanobacteria.

Humic and Fulvic acids are very good at chelating free metals, they are also quite large molecules especially Humic acid which Cyano may not be able to uptake or dismantle on a thin film to get at the Iron whereas the higher plants with their well defined structures are well adapted to uptake molecules that large.

Maybe!
🙂

 

[jaypeecee]

There once was a scientific paper online from the German Humbold University from Dr Steinberg with a study on Humic substances (Tannins) in freshwater. He once stated in an interview, you can not have enough of it in your aquarium, for several beneficial health reasons... 🙂

The study revealed also that it has a rather diminishing effect on the development of Cyanobacteria.

Hi @zozo

Yes, I would appear to have a copy of that paper. It was published in Freshwater Biology (2006) 51, 1189 - 1210. It makes the statement that:

"In some macrophytes and algae we show that HS interfere with photosynthesis and growth. For instance, the presence of HS suppresses cyanobacteria more than eukaryotic algae".

I seem to recall that @dw1305 does not have problems with Cyanobacteria and he may make good use of HS in the form of oak leaves, etc.

JPC

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I seem to recall that @dw1305 does not have problems with Cyanobacteria and he may make good use of HS in the form of oak leaves, etc.

l have some humid substances in all the tanks. I started doing it because I’d seen pictures of the black water in S. America, which were choked with leaves and dead wood. I’d already stopped using gravel, so one of the “issues” with dead leaves had already gone, but I still used to worry all the time about water quality.

When I started talking to proper fish keepers, I found out that some of them had gone a lot further that route, and that led me to Diana Walstad etc.

Cheers Darrel

 

[sparkyweasel]

I think this is the paper;
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2427.2006.01571.x

 

[jaypeecee]

I think this is the paper;
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2427.2006.01571.x

Well found, @sparkyweasel.

It had to be somewhere.

JPC

 

[zozo]

I think this is the paper;
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2427.2006.01571.x

Nice find!..

Amazing how things wander around over the internet... Now i recall, the first time i did read about it is was an article about a study called <Stress Ecology> Also from C. Steinberg. Bookmarked it and then after suddenly it is deleted or no longer accessible, moved, likely updated and published again at another site... 🙂

Stress Ecology

A relatively new study field in aquatics where stress is not investigated as a negative but on the contrary as a positive.. It has a wider application than only water chemistry but in a way always inherently connected.. So i decided to put it in here...

www.ukaps.org

 

[becks]

In my reef tanks, I always seemed to get a Cyano outbreak when my tank was phosphate limited. Popular belief used to be low nitrates and phosphates are a must for a healthy reef tank...when I increased them, my Cyano would go.

Chemiclean worked wonders for me. It was coral and invert safe so I assume it would be fine in a planted tank with inverts

 

[Hanuman]

In my reef tanks, I always seemed to get a Cyano outbreak when my tank was phosphate limited. Popular belief used to be low nitrates and phosphates are a must for a healthy reef tank...when I increased them, my Cyano would go.

Chemiclean worked wonders for me. It was coral and invert safe so I assume it would be fine in a planted tank with inverts

Bought some. Will try it out this weekend. Supposedly it's the safest method otherwise one has to use antibiotics which obviously is not the best route.

 

[jaypeecee]

Chemiclean worked wonders for me. It was coral and invert safe so I assume it would be fine in a planted tank with inverts

Hi @becks

I cannot understand why the manufacturers, Boyd Enterprises, say this about Chemiclean:

Chemiclean
Cleans stains from red, black, blue-green, and methane (bubble) producing cyanobacteria

I don't get the "stains" bit. They make no claim that it eradicates Cyanobacteria. And the Cyanobacteria that I've identified in my freshwater tank would not be found in a marine environment - to the best of my knowledge.

I wouldn't feel comfortable using Chemiclean when the manufacturers don't disclose the active ingredient. Would you mind telling me what Chemiclean looks like? Does it look anything like the picture shown here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid

Thanks.

JPC

 

[becks]

Hi @becks

I cannot understand why the manufacturers, Boyd Enterprises, say this about Chemiclean:

Chemiclean
Cleans stains from red, black, blue-green, and methane (bubble) producing cyanobacteria

I don't get the "stains" bit. They make no claim that it eradicates Cyanobacteria. And the Cyanobacteria that I've identified in my freshwater tank would not be found in a marine environment - to the best of my knowledge.

I wouldn't feel comfortable using Chemiclean when the manufacturers don't disclose the active ingredient. Would you mind telling me what Chemiclean looks like? Does it look anything like the picture shown here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid

Thanks.

JPC

It’s believed to be erythromycin