Contentious subjects

[AlecF]

Now I am off to read Marx to my corys and tell my apisto to be ashamed of its imperialist tendencies.

 

[MichaelJ]

Again, my apologies for reacting to some of the provocative postings, but at the same time I also think the need to provoke is really over-rated on a community forum. Now I am off to read Marx to my corys and tell my apisto to be ashamed of its imperialist tendencies.

Agreed! We have solutions but we need a Full Tank Shot, info on your weekly fertilizer and maintenance regime. 🙂

My personal suggestion is to change "off topic" to "mental health"

We have that covered by Songs from the Man Cave

I appreciate your post @AlecF ... but now let's go talk tank! 🙂

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Guest]

Maybe so, but I actually found some of your comments (before they were edited) to be rather antagonistic and borderline threatening. These kinds of things are where it goes beyond debate and discussion and become inappropriate.

This last comment has just made this discussion personal. Yet again I’m being attacked by a member of the forum team.

You talk about language and how it effects others yet apparently it’s okay for you to frame a situation in a very negative way and then point a finger at me. So no one gets a green pass except you perhaps.

Specifically, none of my comments, edited or otherwise, were intimidating neither were they threatening, nor intended to be antagonistic. If you or anyone else perceived them as such that’s absolutely nothing to do with me.

However, the comments above regarding me are highly personal and defamatory, and I suggest it would be a good idea for you to remove them.

Your post Courtney is the final straw. It has helped me make up my mind, and I’ve come to a decision.

I no longer want my name associated with this forum. Take this as an official request. I would like all of my data, all of my posts removed asap.

I think there is now more than adequate reason for this request to be taken seriously.

 

[john6]

This forum is imploding, how many more people have to leave and their posts removed?

 

[PARAGUAY]

Nobody need leave, I have great respect for you Tim ,please stay ,your contribution to UKAPS is immense,
Let's not forget many of the other threads not off topic had intervention at the time by Paulo @LondonDragon and the quick reminder usually sorted things out. Please consider #15 Tim

 

[AlecF]

I don't want you to leave Tim. Your contributions on aquariums are some of the richest here. I had to accept the mods telling me a comment was too contentious and I did, because we have to respect them. It's what makes things work. They just want the forum to work for everyone. If we want to have a private discussion as a roundtable about what any of us has said that feels contentious to others let's do that, not in public.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

...... I have to fundamentally disagree, which is my prerogative as we've clearly pointed out. Yes, there was certainly uncertainty around the transparency of UKAPS in regards to its finances, but I'm failing to see how that applies to the whole forum. If you mean solely because of the finances, that would imply that there was never any integrity to begin with, which we know isn't the case. ......

has left a void that is now being filled with nonsense.

Yes, and you could have an alternative narrative where a long standing member goes rogue, and attempted to destroy the forum my making a series of unsubstantiated and potentially libellous accusations about our finances, naming another long standing forum member. When this first attempt fails that same member attempts to destabilise the forum from inside by sowing internal dissent and "filling the void with nonsense".

This latest totalitarian manoeuvre, shutting down trending “off topic” discussions, because the opinions expressed somehow became “polarised”, or they somehow don't fit with the forums mission statement, is a very worrying precedent.

The very fact that you are / were still posting refutes that suggestion.

When I log on to UKAPS I see a plethora of members with integrity and honesty sharing their passion every day and furthermore where the committee, mods and admin are concerned, I see a group of people who stepped in when the going got tough and have been working to improve UKAPS' financial state, online presence and ensuring that the forum is alive and well.

Well said Courtney. I'm going to carry on posting and supporting the forum and I would sincerely hope that other members do the same.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

given someone as unfailing courteous and generous as Darrell would get so pissed off.

I'm not sure about "courteous and generous", but "pissed off" is definitely accurate.

Yet again I’m being attacked by a member of the forum team.

You talk about language and how it effects others yet apparently it’s okay for you to frame a situation in a very negative way and then point a finger at me. So no one gets a green pass except you perhaps.

Specifically, none of my comments, edited or otherwise, were intimidating neither were they threatening, nor intended to be antagonistic. If you or anyone else perceived them as such that’s absolutely nothing to do with me.

Probably enough said.

cheers Darrel

 

[Guest]

Thanks for that Darrel @dw1305. A somewhat less than flattering synopsis. I’m not going to get embroiled in tit for tat. And neither I’m I going to try and justify my existence. Or going to rake over old ground, despite the provocation. It’s obviously pointless.

I’ve made my intentions very clear. Suffice it to say if I had any doubt that I’ve made the right decision it has now evaporated.

 

[Onoma1]

Without rehashing the past, Tim's views on the on the use of donations the response led to some very positive changes and a different approach including greater transparency and transfer of ownership. We will never know if his concerns were unfounded and it's now water under the bridge. He clearly rocked the boat and upset a few people, however, in my view this was much needed.

l don't think it's fair to suggest he has any ulterior motive. Given his contribution to the forum over many years it's just not plausible, accurate or fair.

While I disagree with some of his views, the tone of his posts that I have read has been respectful and evidenced.

IMO we need some reconciliation and a few face to face / hybrid meetings of the UKAPS.

Tim should feel welcome, it will be a poorer place without him and there should be some outreach to talk to people that have left.

 

[john6]

Surely the forum comes first above everything, all this bickering because people express different views?
Get it sorted out and put the good of the forum first. Do you think Tim or anybody else leaving the forum and wanting their posts removing is good for the forum? No it isn't, so sort it before anybody else leaves and stop self imploding.

 

[tam]

I haven't read the threads. I don't need to. I've moderated big forums long enough to know that as much as I love engaging discussions on a range of topics and listening to others view points, being the person in charge of keeping the everyone on the right side of the line between engaging discussion of different points of view and slinging mud is a thankless painful job. You can't take your eye off them because they are prone to descend into absolute chaos the minute you turn off your screen and try for some sleep. If you want to keep your (unpaid voluntary) moderators sane, sometimes it's better to lock them. You will then be accused of impinging upon free speech (people very rarely actually understand what that means) but you'll have been accused of not taking action if you don't as well so you lose either way.

I love a good debate but I'm not going to be mad at mods for calling time either.

 

[Malarky]

For what it's worth I think the 'off topic' threads are valuable as long as they are respectful which in general they almost always are (please don't resign 'louis_last'). I also think that at times participants should just let them go and retire gracefully once the discussion becomes circular, there is nothing to be gained from having the last word.

 

[Guest]

There seems to me to be some dramatising from those who feel a need to use the forum as a place to vent their opinions

Yes, from you. You are the only person who actually came close to stepping out of line with personal attacks in any of those threads.

I admit fault in feeling drawn to respond to what I see as provocative or right wing opinions.

By trying to have them silenced.

It's indisputable that something is happening in those threads which is not conducive to community.

Yes, your insistence that nobody is allowed to express opinions that don't align with your own.

There's a question as to why a few people feel a need to be controversial here, rather than social media, and it seems to relate to their feeling that this is their special place.

Alec, you have yourself expressed many strong political views here in numerous threads and are trying to demand that other people are not allowed to respond or express their own, that YOU consider to be controversial, because you feel that this is your special place.
You are literally participating in a thread where a friend of yours is complaining about "scabs". I notice you haven't expressed any problem with the politically polarising nature of that discussion during your participation because nobody has yet cared to disagree with any of the sentiments expressed.

A few of them feel so strongly that they must be allowed to post here about their opinions that they are threatening to leave.

I feel so strongly that OTHER PEOPLE must be allowed to post here about their opinions that I am leaving.

They could also consider that the vast majority of users do not feel a need to post like this was X or Facebook or Reddit.

But you do. And rather than just ignoring opinions that you find triggering you are attempting to prevent them from being expressed at all.

We accept this forum is about our hobby, not a place to impose other aspects of our lives.

Nobody is imposing anything on you or the forum. You are entirely free to not read or interact with their discussions and opinions.

I am sure the views I hold would piss off some people, but I never feel this is the place to share them.

And yet you do, at least as frequently as anyone else.

It's also true that the way a few people feel a need to push a debate will make discussion problematic, will cause heated debate, will lead to fall outs, and will put pressure on mods.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you were the person who actually had to be moderated in that thread no? So you're describing your own behaviour here?

Personally I don't think it is difficult to say what is political – it comes down to how we're conversing, and it is only in political posts that I see problems.

This is obviously not true - it is demonstrably and exclusively the case that it's only when you see political posts that don't align with your own view of the world that you see problems.

It's when we veer into politics that basically those of the left, the pearl clutchers as we get called

I don't think left wing people, which by the way includes me, are pearl clutchers. I do think the description accurately encapsulates certain behaviour in these threads.

and those of the right, the ones who have a strong need to "debate" and sometimes provoke, quarrel. The ones on the left seem mostly to be the ones who are saying look, can we just keep this stuff away from here, or we'll feel we need to speak out (maybe that's our flaw, but it's also a reality),

Yes, I am also starting to notice that the "right wing" are much more willing to engage in discussion and submit their ideas to scrutiny and critique. It's rather suggestive. I just had to quickly check, and sure enough, you were literally the first person to make an explicitly political post in the just stop oil thread and it wasn't to say "look, can we just keep this stuff away from here?". Following the first post where you said the thread should be shut down after someone expressed a differing view from your own your very next post was telling tim that "nobody is shutting him down" while actively trying to do so.

While the ones on the right say that they need to argue, and won't be censored, and those who suggest limiting debate are making them feel they have to leave, and delete every post, as if they'd never existed.

Who exactly are you identifying as 'on the right' here Alec? Do you recall me ever posting anything remotely 'right wing'? This is exactly the sort of misguided and irrelevant approach that sends these threads down a much less productive path.
I have no problem whatsoever with the moderators limiting debate or enacting whatever clearly ellucidated moderation policies they wish. None of my posts have ever had to be censored or removed. What I do have a problem with is you and any other vocal minority being able to moderate or censor other people by proxy just by throwing your toys out the pram whenever someone doesn't align with your world view and requesting that discussions you are in no way obligated to view or participate in are shut down because you personally have contributed to making them toxic.

it does seem to me that one side is more willing to admit its opinions have NO relevance here. That doesn't mean we feel able to shut up if we see something we really disagree with.

and yet that 'side' seems to share them at least as often as anyone else and expects anyone else to shut up if they see something they really disagree with.

Apologies, but this is the reason for the old rule no politics at the dinner table.

No. People like you are the reason for the old rule 'no politics at the dinner table'. Huge numbers of adults are able to discuss politics calmy and even with people who disagree with them and do so regularly. Politics wouldn't function otherwise.

I am as political as the conservative people, but I don't see this community as my platform to post about that.

But you do. Are these 'conservative people' in the room with us right now?

The reason I personally suggest limiting it is less to do with censoring and more to do with the mixed feelings I think left wing people have here, between an impulse to challenge opinions they strongly disagree with, and a preference to keep that stuff out, because we know it will always be destructive.

So in fact it is precisely to do with censoring people who you don't consider left wing?

I don't think those objecting to censorship always grasp that. We feel just as passionately, but we don't see this as our place to vent. If we stopped saying can you please not post politically then we may switch to replying in kind, and that will create friction.

Do you even read your own posts? Do you genuinely not see the inconsistency in you frequently expressing your political views but insisting that if anyone who doesn't share those views does they are "venting"

The people who speak of censorship could perhaps ask themselves why they their political views need of expression here?

They don't. But if there's going to be a policy of "no politics" than that needs to be vigorously and evenly enforced across the board. If people are allowed to express their views on anything other than aquariums full stop, and you frequently do, then other people must be allowed to disagree and articulate oppsing views rather than the rest of us being treated like children because you find it upsetting when people don't agree with you.

Why are they being told it isn't conducive to community.

Because by doing so certain people imagine they can turn this into an echo chamber where dissenting opinions aren't allowed. It would appear they are correct.

Is it because people want to silence them

Yes, it's because you want to silence them.

who feels torn about his own need to speak out, but also wishes politics was NOT imposed here.

Nobody has imposed anything on you at all or even has the means to do so. You are seeking it out in order to be offended by it.

Some people feel driven to post over and over again because they feel this is their space.

Including you. My solution is that it be a space for all where adults are free to respectfully express and discuss their differing views in the off topic forum should they choose to do so.

My personal suggestion is to change "off topic" to "mental health", which can include stuff about songs and that kind of thing, for those who feel that need.

I'm inclined to agree that you would be better served by a mental health forum but I think that would be even less appropriate for the uk aquatic plant society than the off topic chit chat one that you are seeking to have removed.

 

[AlecF]

I don't think it's helpful for me to respond to that Louis. I suggested arranging a zoom for anyone that wishes and I am still willing to do that. I don't perceive you as on the right in anything you've posted at all. I was attempting to discuss the dynamic in the disagreements, and I apologised for my part in that. While I have commented that my preference is, like some other people, to not have political posts, I haven't locked any thread. Just in terms of the 'scabs', the comment I responded to was from two people talking about ME, a chronic illness, and I shared a link with a resource that is supportive in terms of the illness, that's all. As I said before, I hope you and Tim both stay on the forum. If I am an issue to that then I am happy to talk directly.

 

[hypnogogia]

there is nothing to be gained from having the last word.

Spot on.

 

[hypnogogia]

Folks, can you please calm down. There’s a very small minority that seem to think it’s appropriate to cause discord in these threads. Please stop, before yet another thread needs to be closed down.

 

[AlecF]

If it's helpful I'm glad to remove my comment. Especially if that will encourage Louis and Tim to stay. I'm also happy not to comment on political posts, but I'd personally suggest they could be on a channel labelled "political".

 

[Spartacus]

I'm inclined to agree that you would be better served by a mental health forum but I think that would be even less appropriate for the uk aquatic plant society than the off topic chit chat one that you are seeking to have removed.

UKAPS is my mental health forum I am happy to admit that - It’s the main reason I stepped up to help and I’m delighted to be able to do so. I don’t do it for a power trip - I don’t do it because I “get off on beating up my wife” as we were accused of. I sacrifice my free time for you my online friends - we will probably never meet but that’s OK I am here for you as you are for me.

I do what I can because UKAPS is precious to me it has and will help me and I will help UKAPS - I want to help make this place a better place for all.

Some stuff needs to be worked out it will be worked out - It takes time and the opportunity.

Our mods task is not to censor our task is to keep the peace, keep UKAPS enjoyable and keep the place free from Temu spammers 🤣

I want this place not just to survive but to thrive - To be someone else’s sanctuary in this mad world.

Now if you will excuse me I have some plants to plant and me being me I used mesh bags for substrate. So I’m going to spend the next two hours trying to plant a crypt 😊

Thank You,

Murray

 

[Chez_]

Could there be a 'play the ball not the player' policy? That's fairly clear to both self police and mod. And take the chit-chat out of the 'new posts' bit, as was suggested up thread, so off-topic stuff doesn't immediately catch the eye when people land on the page. People could discuss contentious topics to their hearts' content then, so long as they keep it civil.

I have to say like the chit-chat bit. As a relative newbie it's made the forum seem less intimidating.