Contentious subjects

[richardcunliffe]

To those who are intending to leave, can we maybe give this thing some more time?
Your fishy contributions are valuable and your thoughts on general topics are valued by the community.

UKAPS has obviously been through a lot recently. With many new moderators who are both learning the ropes and managing a forum whose identity is in some sense reforming - I don't think it's terribly surprising that things aren't immediately managed in an ideal way. Requiring immediate action or issuing ultimatums doesn't feel like the way to go. Also, continuing to post on the forum doesn't seem like condoning censorship to me.

Both 'sides' here have expressed themselves with very sensible and clear statements which I expect the majority agree with, before breaking down into personal you said I said. The OP is a very sensible one, which I imagine will take at least some amount of time to come to a consensus about. I can't comment on edits to posts, but locking threads doesn't to me reek of a dictatorship.

Personally, I like the idea of moving the chit chat off the new threads. I also think it possible to allow mature discussion of differing view points here as a refreshingly less echo-y chamber without needing too short a leash. What I imagine we don't want is a massive amount of effort for mods to manage the off topic forums, especially if they end up frequented by folk who aren't contributing on the fishy side

 

[anewbie]

I think the problem is that people have learned that effective way to push propaganda is to be as offensive as possible and force their post to be the last post. I visit a lot of forums but few in details so missed a lot of what is happening here but i do see these threads popping up in many places. To me science is science - there can be misinterpretation of scientific data but the data is either factual or propaganda. Today the republicans in the usa release a report on covid that is (for those who read it) is nothing more than propaganda. they arrived at a conclusion and then looked for data to support that conclusion. I had a conversation with a friend of mine when covid started and her father was a military doctor. The very first thing he did was to start wearing a mask yet this report declares that social distancing and wearing a mask were negative decisions by 'experts' who did not understand what they were doing. The reason for this conclusion was the negative impact on the fiscal year to save lives.
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The point I'm making and the relevance to this thread is a very focal propaganda ?minority? has systematically learned how to obliterate 'known' science of the last 100 years and by being extremely contentious seem to get the last word in before forcing a thread to be locked.
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Now for some topics such as covid (which is off topic of course) there is no real relationship to UKAPS but other topics such as climate change we do see our fishes and plants either evolving or going extinct so one could claim some relevance.
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Should these topics be removed - that is a tough one as i see in this thread the arguments of freedom of speech vs harmony. To a degree i can see both sides of the coins being valid but the part that trouble me the most (and point of this thread) is the propaganda group is winning by either forcing the removal of these discussion or drowning out the voice of reason. What i would be curious (though it is not something that can be done easily) is across these many forums if individuals could be tracked that cause this drowning out. I.e, is there truly a broad disagreement on many topics or are a few entities systematically creating a lot of noise to spread propaganda. Why do i call this propaganda and not simply a difference of opinion or interpretation of data - because much of it seems political and systematically organized. Of course the issue (at least in the USA) comes down to a combination of $$$ and power. At lest the thought seems to be in USA it is better to be rich today even if we are dead tomorrow than suffer today for a better tomorrow.

Still the question is should off topic discussion be allowed - imho there is no right answer - but to turn them off caves to a very vocal minority and to not turn them off leaves to much anger.

 

[AlecF]

Just to be open, I removed a post that caused Louis offence, in the spirit of resolving things and not wanting him or Tim to leave. Like a number of other people I've made suggestions, which are only that, for mods to consider and I am fine with whatever they decide. I also asked Louis to remove the final comment he made as I don't think personal attacks have any place here. My personal view remains that it would be beneficial to separate "politics" from "chit-chat" as separate channels. That doesn't deny anyone's need to use this fishkeeping forum to discuss political issues – I'm happy for members to decide what is political if they choose to start a thread of that nature. I'd personally welcome a "mental health" channel, or if "songs from the man cave" is that then maybe rename it so newbies know.

 

[john6]

Still the question is should off topic discussion be allowed - imho there is no right answer - but to turn them off caves to a very vocal minority and to not turn them off leaves to much anger.

The issue or point is that whatever the decision the mods make is that it is taken purely for the good of the forum, not because people get butthurt etc etc, it must be for the good of the forum, the forum must come first in any decision.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

but to turn them off caves to a very vocal minority and to not turn them off leaves to much anger.

Personally I can see why locking the threads might be a good idea, but I don't really agree <"with removing them">, unless they contain hate speech or infringe the law.

...... What i would be curious (though it is not something that can be done easily) is across these many forums if individuals could be tracked that cause this drowning out. I.e, is there truly a broad disagreement on many topics or are a few entities systematically creating a lot of noise to spread propaganda. Why do i call this propaganda and not simply a difference of opinion or interpretation of data - because much of it seems political and systematically organized. Of course the issue (at least in the USA) comes down to a combination of $$$ and power.

I think that is the playbook <"BBC Radio 4 - How They Made Us Doubt Everything, The Tobacco Playbook: 1. Big Oil’s Big Crisis"> being used by Fox News, GB News, the Russian State, the Tobacco Industry, Social Media entrepreneurs, the Oil and Gas companies etc <"Big Oil Denial Playbook Revealed by New Documents">. Obfuscate the truth, demonise a minority and create a situation where there appears to be debate amongst scientists, even <"where none really exists">.

The problem is that people are then in a situation where they see, are or told, that <"factual reporting"> is left-wing propaganda <"Wild conspiracies about the weather are spreading online. The media can help | Arwa Mahdawi"> and "alternative facts" become indistinguishable from the truth.

To me science is science - there can be misinterpretation of scientific data but the data is either factual or propaganda.

Exactly, because I'm not a very good scientist and <"like a picture"> ("<graphical representation>"). You aren't going to find these graphs in any of the pseudoscience <"journals"> or reports from <"independent"> Institutes, because they leave the purveyors of alternative facts (or as I like to call them "lies") nowhere to hide.

..... I've posted it a lot, but if you look at Hawkin's Stripes - <"Climate stripes - University of Reading">.

and <"Global CO2 levels"> they make pretty shocking viewing.

cheers Darrel

 

[UKAPS Committee]

Further to Tims request for his account to be deleted, the team are now completing this. We are sorry he has made this decision and are very grateful for his contribution to the forum over the years. Im sure everyone wishes him well in all his aquascaping adventures in the future.

 

[john6]

And this is the way UKAPS is going forward?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

..... We are sorry he has made this decision and are very grateful for his contribution to the forum over the years.

And this is the way UKAPS is going forward?

@john6 I don't think anyone wants this, I certainly didn't and don't. I hope that the <"Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide"> will re-appear on another platform, and when it does? I will link to it, where-ever it is located.

Whatever may have happened during the last couple of months, it doesn't take away from Tim's contribution to UKAPS, over a large number of years. If we could turn the clock back to the start of 2024 and continue how we were? Personally I would, in an instant. I PMed @louis_last and asked them not to leave, but to no avail.

Last night I lay in bed, not sleeping, and this whole "thing" played through my head like Macbeth, or Greek tragedy, or the post French Revolution "Terror". Hopefully no-one else is going to see ghosts, poke their own eye out or go to the, metaphorical, guillotine.

Having said that, even if I'd known the denouement of the whole <"Just stop Oil ....."> thread, I would still have posted the posts I made, otherwise I would feel personally complicit in a groundless, and hugely damaging, conspiracy theory.

I'd go to as far as to say that there are somethings that are so important that you can't just bite your lip and turn the other cheek.

cheers Darrel

 

[Onoma1]

I would like to suggest that before anything is deleted we take a few days for everyone to take some time and review. Perhaps reach out and talk to Tim and others.

It's so easy when you emotionally invest in communities to become upset when you feel misunderstood or not listened to. It's also easy to become upset by the tone of someone's communication.

Short form text is however is a notoriously poor commnication mechanism and the speed of communication facilitates poor decision making. In SF telepathy offers perfect communication, in the real world we bumble along with inadequate forms! Issues become exaggerated and comments that would normal be shrugged off become significant beyond their value.

I saw @AlecF removed a post just on case it offended...bravo.

MODS, please don't delete anything for a while, give people a way back in and let's move away from blame.

Oh and no I don't believe in telepathy...!

 

[john6]

Hi all,


@john6 I don't think anyone wants this, I certainly didn't and don't. I hope that the "Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide" will re-appear on another platform, and when it does? I will link to it, where-ever it is located.

Whatever may have happened during the last couple of months, it doesn't take away from Tim's contribution to UKAPS, over a large number of years. If we could turn the clock back to the start of 2024 and continue how we were? Personally I would, in an instant. I PMed @louis_last and asked them not to leave, but to no avail.

Last night I lay in bed, not sleeping, and this whole "thing" played through my head like Macbeth, or Greek tragedy, or the Post French revolution terror. Hopefully no-one else is going to see ghosts, poke their own eye out or go to the, metaphorical, guillotine.

Having said that, even if I'd known the denouement of the whole "Just stop Oil ....." thread, I would still have posted the posts I made, otherwise I would feel personally implicated in a groundless, and hugely damaging, conspiracy theory.

I'd go to as far as to say that there are somethings that are so important that you can't just bite your lip and turn the other cheek.

cheers Darrel

I have sent a pm to Iain to put across my views on this.
I am not a big contributor to the forum as there are many more experts with far greater knowledge than me but I learn alot and my fear is if we keep losing members, any member, especially those with great knowledge then the forum is doomed.

 

[mort]

I was going to stay away from posting in these types of threads but I just wanted to mention to anyone that was thinking of leaving or deleting their accounts that it would be an awful shame. I was part of an exodus on the biggest reefing site a few years back. I was a mod and know how hard that job can be but I no longer wanted to be a part of a forum which went against my core beliefs and values. It was mostly like minded Europeans that left because of an anti gay policy or at least a prejudicial treatment of the non heterosexual community. This wasn't something that affected me personally but isn't something I would ever support.
When I left I just didn't log on again. All my posts are still there and I have the option to go back which I think is important because by just deleting everything it's as if you didn't exist and nothing gets solved by erasing the past. I know this is a very different case but there is so much advice and experience from people on this forum who are no longer active members but it's valuable infomation for the hobby and for those we will never meet. It is a shame to eradicate ones legacy when it can be so beneficial to others and has taken so much energy and time to build in the first place. We are all thankful for that commitment over the years.
I will be very sad if anyone goes but respect their decision and urge, like others, to let things cool down a while before making a permanent end to your time here.

 

[hypnogogia]

And this is the way UKAPS is going forward?

I don't think anyone wants this, I certainly didn't and don't. I hope that the "Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide" will re-appear on another platform, and when it does? I will link to it, where-ever it is located.

Nothing has been lost:

G

Thread 'Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide'

9 Dec 2011

The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - a How to Guide...

...or Zen and an Introduction to the Art of Underwater Gardening with Soil or Dirt...
...or The Hybrid-Energy Approach.

Introduction
In writing this I hope to illustrate that using soil substrate offers a range of possibilities and that it's up to the individual to decide on the level of energy investment they are happiest with in order to achieve their goals. I also hope to illustrate that the “hybrid-energy” approach provides an alternative to the traditional low-energy, low-tech soil substrate tank and the typical...

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• Replies: 314
• Forum: Articles / Tutorials

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[anewbie]

When i was in grad school i played muds (for those who know what muds are sufficient said). And most players were either senior or graduate students and there was a certain community where we could talk about various topics in a semi-mature fashion. If you are old enough to have experience the internet back then you know what i am talking about. As the years went by younger people started to play muds - at first freshman and such in college and eventually high school students. The environment changed the mis-behavior started and the games were no longer fun and i stopped playing them.

We see that happening now - instead of immature people it is mostly the propaganda groups - or those of alternative facts and such that now create a lot of friction. If not directly by posting on forums than indirectly by spreading this junk in other manners which cause the select few to pick it up as truth instead of fiction. Some of it is of course orchestrated by various 'enemies' of democracy. It isn't that they give a hoot about plant forums but rather they need a means to spread discourse so the robots find threads no matter where they are and results in posters to carry the message on those threads.

Now i can't say that is what is happening here as i've not pay attention to who post what but in other forums where i am more active (particularly ones where they debate the Ukrainian wars) there is a lot of interesting activity.

To me the sad part is all of this is happening for what i would consider a non-productive (one could say anti-productive) reason of [for lack of a better word] greed though greed here is not exactly direct monetary though in the end that is where it goes.

Now what would be nice i think is if the mods actually have access to data set of ips and similar and the tools to determine if there are any pattern in the spread of discourse it might lead to more actionable items of course with the wide spread use of vpn and such it takes a bit of effort. Though perhaps EU or UK laws would make this more difficult. All I can say is that most of the spam mail i receive comes from very limited number of sources when i start looking at ips.

Still much of what is happening today mirrors my experience on muds and sadly i think the trajectory is either iron fist moderating (which i think is not so good since all information that is true information is good - true here means not fabricated for entity gain) or some means to filter out those who post fabricated truth as previously defined.

I will say i enjoyed the conversations i had on muds more than the actual game because the educated population allowed for educated discussions so it was kind of sad when the kids were more interested in abusing the game mechanics than furthering the community.