building a 1200L nature aquarium with Wild Discus & jungle-nature feel

[not called Bob]

there’s probably more than enough space to fit an Amalagam UV in there, as long as its in a spot where the uv can not cause any damage to the container. no flow restriction and easier maintenance and costs

 

[aeneas]

A quick update regarding the build... most of the equipment is now already in... still waiting for the stand and the actual glass tank - expected to arrive end of the week or next week.
What I received until now are:

• GHL system: Mitras lights (4x LX 7004), Profilux 4 controller, Dosing pump with 4x heads, water probes for pH, conductivity, redox
• Royal Exclusive Red Dragon Speedy 3100gph pump for sump
• CO2Art Elite CO2 regulator
• Innovitech fleece roller filter X1.7
• UV sterilizer Viqua VH410 delivering (30mJ/cm2) at 1100gph flow
• a bunch of other small stuff...

...it will be lots of fun assembling all of these things 🙂

Quick question: I now have two solenoid valves for CO2 regulator: one which is part of the CO2Art Elite regulator and one that came together with the GHL system and is part of GHL engineering. GHL looks more "hardcore" but I have no idea whether quality is comparable or should I choose one over the other? Any thoughts?

 

[LondonDragon]

choose one over the other? Any thoughts?

Stick with the CO2Art kit and keep the other solenoid as a backup 😉

 

[aeneas]

Trying to prepare myself now for getting the tank up and running, so I have a few more basing items I wanted to check with you, or, alternatively, if you can point me in the right direction to read more about these things:

1) Cycling the tank: how to properly cycle a big 1100 litre tank???

• I will plant as densely as possible and add plenty of fast growing plants (some of which I may remove later when everything settles)
• I will add some of my old filter media and sponges to the sump to transfer the bacteria (hopefully no bad bacteria though... right now I don't have any discus, so it is hard to tell with these other hardy fish, which look healthy but can carry anything and will not show it)
• the tank will be AWC controlled and I will do lots of water changes initially - e.g. 30% WC daily (does this make sense?)
• the tank will use ADA substrate, which is nutrient rich so there will be plenty of release into the water during the initial weeks... (ADA Bacter 100 + ADA Amazonia Power Sand + ADA Amazonia Soil + ADA Amazonia Powder + ADA La plata sand)
• I will only use inert rocks (like dragon stone), not having any impact on hardening of the water

• when do I start with CO2 to help plant growth? CO2 lowers pH and as far as I know that will change nitrogen chemistry and may interrupt my nitrogen cycling. Any tips?
• when do I start with fertilisers? ...again, thinking of the maximal efficiency of plant growth vs. nitrogen cycling?
• I'll be using R/O water, but I can start and cycle initially with hard unsoftened water if that would be preferable? Should I be using any micronutrients if using R/O and not yet doing full plant fertilisers?
• UV on the return flow during cycling: yes or no? Minimise algae growth? bacteria should populate the sump so probably for the nitrogen cycle I am not hurting it if I UV sterilise return water?
• lights: full 7h photoperiod from the start or should I start with lower light intensity while plants are getting acclimatised?

2) Fertilisation: EI or lean fertilisation?

• the tank will be dedicated to wild discus fish; so I need to be mindful of not overdosing nutrients and making their water parameters undesirable (they are currently being held at Ph 6.6-6.8 and with a conductivity of 300 to 400 microsiemens and a temperature of 27ºC)
• I would like to establish a minimal maintenance tank so although will initially add some fast growing plants, later I would prefer slow growers and more long-term stability; I was thinking lean fertilisation would make more sense, but not sure here... I've never been in this territory of tech yet. I have a GHL-controlled pump with automatic 4 pump heads for microdosing of nutrients.
• any fertilisation that I go with needs to be in liquid form... a magnetic stirrer and automated dosing. Not adding daily/weekly by spoons... Happy to mix-up stuff once a month, but then let the system take care of fertilisation regime.

...what fertilisation strategy would you recommend for such setup?

As always, I really appreciate your inputs... this would be such a scary project doing it alone, but with your guidance I feel I have the collective knowledge of the whole team behind that can make this a wonderful success! 🙂

 

[Karmicnull]

when do I start with CO2 to help plant growth? CO2 lowers pH and as far as I know that will change nitrogen chemistry and may interrupt my nitrogen cycling. Any tips?

Start the moment you have plants in there - and don't worry about the ph-lowering effect. The plants will love the C02, they'll settle in better and grow faster, your tank will mature just fine. Lots of threads on this forum to that effect!

 

[Wookii]

@aeneas You need to be thinking 75%+ daily water changes for the first two weeks with Amazonia as a minimum.

Unless, you are doing a dark start you need to plant heavily, have the CO2 on, and dose ferts from Day 1 - either just potassium if going lean/ADA route, or full EI if going that way. The choice is of course yours, but EI is simple and less prone to error - lean dosing, unless rigidly following a pre-prescribed system like the ADA one, is really for those experienced folks that really know what they are doing.

@Geoffrey Rea has a good start up guide in his post here:

New Decade, New Decadence...

Nice, a really solid and well grounded scape. That wood looks like it's been there for ever growing out of an ancient lava flow 👍

www.ukaps.org

If you have mature filter media, definitely use that if you can to help seed your sump filter, or even the mulm from cleaning an existing filter, it'll help mature your tank faster. Get the plants growing well before considering adding any livestock, at least a month I would say - even longer for messy and sensitive fish like discus I would say.

 

[aeneas]

Hi all, it's been a while since my last post. We've had some challenges on the way with the manufacturer of the big glass tank etc. so this is causing some delays unfortunately. All of the equipment is now already purchased and waiting to be connected, the stand is ready, so only the glassware is missing.

HOWEVER, I have one big news I'm happy to share: we couldn't resit and we already chose the inhabitants for the new aquarium... beautiful wild discus from the Santarem company. The fish have been handpicked and selected by us (our family) and fully paid for, and the Santarem team was kind and will hold them in a special tank for us until we are fully set up and cycled and ready to receive them in their new home.
Here is a teaser - let me know what you think:

 

[aeneas]

I hope you guys like the selection of beautiful wild royals and semi-royals... I think they will be amazing in the new tank and hardly waiting to finish it.

Now, I have ONE MORE FINAL request to make - as I mentioned... all the equipment is bought and waiting - EXCEPT FOR THE SUMP. I still cannot decide whether I have made the right design or not. As you will remember we went for a "horizontal" design to have a simple flow through the foam filter media as biological filtration (like matten filter etc.) and I have the Innovitech Fleece roller filter at the beginning to take out all the nasty stuff and biological debris. It should run pretty clean. On the sides I planned just small 3cm side wings of glass to hold the foam filter media in place and force the water through the media instead of flowing along the walls on the side. At the end - before the return pump, I added a baffle, however not sure if that adds any value? On the top I also added glass wings so that I can place some acrylic cover on top to minimize evaporation.
Here below are the last sketches. PLEASE - can you have one more look at the sump design and let me know if you think the design makes sense, would you change anything, does the final baffle make sense, should I have 2 baffles (up and down) or none? Anything else?
Is the 100cm length (with 50cm width and 50cm height) OK for a sump for the tank we are planning? Since it will be a heavily planted tank and having the fleece roller, I think it should be enough... or do you think I would need to make it 120x50x50?
I would like to confirm the build of the sump early this coming week so that I may start working on the installations etc. and then only wait for the big tank to arrive once it's finally ready - hopefully in about a month.
Much appreciated as always! 🙂

 

[ian_m]

I can see a couple of failure issues in your design.

If sump pump fails/turns off/power cut, water drains from the pipework, raises in sump and drains to out of your overflow, thus you are losing "working water".

One way check valves never ever ever ever ever work reliably. You get a snail/plant/detritus stuck in them preventing them working, as well as seriously restricting flow. If you are intending on relying on them to prevent back syphoning and sump over filling....DONT. Use air gaps, weirs, water boxes etc to prevent back flow.

You need to be extremely careful if using heaters in your sump. As if you have too low water, too powerful return pump or blocked down pipe you can end up with the heaters exposed. I read somewhere of someone who had his sump empty out in his lounge as the downpipe got restricted (leaves I think), the return pump emptied the sump back into the tank, nearly overflowing the tank, as he didn't leave equivalent to the sump volume above the water level in the tank, the heaters got exposed and melted the plastic of the sump letting water into his lounge. You need a "weir" in the sump to prevent the heaters ever running dry if there is an "issue". This is why you have baffles/weirs in sumps to prevent the return pump never ever ever completely draining the sump. Weirs/baffles reduce the maximum volume of water pumped back into the tank, so absolutely no chance of tank overflowing, if the downpipe fails/gets blocked etc.

 

[Wookii]

Just to add to Ian's excellent points, you can also lay the heaters down in the pump chamber, and have the pump raised up on a small stand so that the bottom of the pump intake is an inch or two above the heaters, so if the pump runs the sump dry the heaters will still be underwater. Additionally you can add a float switch to turn off the heaters if the water level drops too low - though you wouldn't want to be relying solely on a float switch as it can fail or clog, it adds an additional failsafe.

I've gone through the same thought processes on sump design, as I intend to have one on a large tank in the future. My plan was similar to yours for automated water changes, in letting fresh water drain into the sump, and then the increase in the height of the water level exits the waste water out of the overflow, but as Ian points out, it just doesn't work as the the sump always fills up when the pump loses power, then when the pump regains power, there isn't enough "working water" left in the system.

I still haven't come up with an auto water change system for a sump that I'm 100% happy with.

 

[ian_m]

I still haven't come up with an auto water change system for a sump that I'm 100% happy with.

Not sure it is that simple to auto change water using a sump due to the large changes in water levels encountered between when running and when "failed".

I have seen systems that used an extra section in their tank weir overflow to allow water to overflow into their drain. You have this drain weir slightly higher than you main overflow so most of the water drains into the sump, but some overflows into the drain. Replacement water was added via float valve in the main tank.

Need to also consider how you are dosing de-chlorinator if you are using tap water to auto water replace.

A failure of the float valve means excess water flows into the drain overflow or if really bad overflows into the sump overflow drain.

Failure of downpipe, means sump pump empties the sump pump compartment and overflows tanks into drain, but at least not losing a large volume of working water.

You need to consider what happens when you have a failure, blocked pipes, failed pumps, reduced flow in pipes, blocked filters etc and how it can auto-recover after say a power failure.

Another sump fail I read about, was a guy came home and his carefully designed baffled and weir'ed sump was empty and tank had overflowed making a nice wet mess. He had purchased a nice custom sized acrylic tank for use as sump BUT he had siliconed in the baffles/weirs making what he thought was a wonderful fail safe/auto restarting sump. However silicone does not in fact bond very well to acrylic and after a year odd, the silicone started coming away, eventually allowing the return pump to pump the entire contents of the sump into the tank, causing the overflow.

 

[Wookii]

Not sure it is that simple to auto change water using a sump due to the large changes in water levels encountered between when running and when "failed".

I have seen systems that used an extra section in their tank weir overflow to allow water to overflow into their drain. You have this drain weir slightly higher than you main overflow so most of the water drains into the sump, but some overflows into the drain. Replacement water was added via float valve in the main tank.

Need to also consider how you are dosing de-chlorinator if you are using tap water to auto water replace.

A failure of the float valve means excess water flows into the drain overflow or if really bad overflows into the sump overflow drain.

Failure of downpipe, means sump pump empties the sump pump compartment and overflows tanks into drain, but at least not losing a large volume of working water.

You need to consider what happens when you have a failure, blocked pipes, failed pumps, reduced flow in pipes, blocked filters etc and how it can auto-recover after say a power failure.

Another sump fail I read about, was a guy came home and his carefully designed baffled and weir'ed sump was empty and tank had overflowed making a nice wet mess. He had purchased a nice custom sized acrylic tank for use as sump BUT he had siliconed in the baffles/weirs making what he thought was a wonderful fail safe/auto restarting sump. However silicone does not in fact bond very well to acrylic and after a year odd, the silicone started coming away, eventually allowing the return pump to pump the entire contents of the sump into the tank, causing the overflow.

I'd be using RO, so I'd fill a header tank, auto-dose a remin salt solution via a dosing pump, and then water change with that. I'd have chlorine and chloramine pre-filters so I wouldn't be too worried on using a dechlorinator (its what I do currently as well so I know it works).

What I do currently on both my tanks is a separate plastic water tank fills with water change water (using electronic ball valves or solenoids on the main supply inlet), the fresh water is then pumped or solenoid released (via gravity) into the main tank. Waste waste then overflows out of the tank via a waste over flow pipe as the level in the tank increases. I'm at risk if the overflow pipe blocks, but the chances of that are very slim.

A sump is so more complex though. I guess the key would be to replace smaller quantities of water at a time, and to have a sump with sufficient spare capacity designed in.

The only way I have thought to do it is as follows:

First you have a header tank (higher than the sump), which fills with water change water fed by the RO unit, with its outlet the the sump on a float switch in the sumps final chamber with the float switch set at the working water level - similar to a ATO tank, so working by gravity. This header tank would have it's own overflow and a float switch on the RO inlet to turn off the RO unit once filled.

On water change you then have a pump in the first sump chamber, on a timer, and pump waste water out into a waste container with a float switch that turns the pump off when the container is full - just so you can get a measured waste amount each time. As the water level in the sump decreases, the float switch will let water from the water change header tank into the sump to replace that being extracted.

There would then be a pump in the waste water tank (also on a timer, set to a later time) to empty to waste water to the drain (or garden etc).

For additional fail safes I could add an overflow to the waste water container. I could also add a low level float valve in the sump to switch off the waste water extract pump if the level gets too low. The timer would also turn that pump off in any case to prevent it over running. That should prevent the pump draining the sump. I could also have a solenoid operated by a second float valve or level sensor on the fresh water tank outlet, to act as a failsafe in case the first float valve fails and get stuck open, with the sumps main overflow outlet acting as the final failsafe.

As far as I can tell with that system, if the waste extract pump fails to come on, no fresh water gets added eliminating that risk of sump overflow. If the waste extract pump gets stuck on, the timer should turn it off, or the low level sensor on the sump should turn it off if that fails. The only remaining risk, as far as I can tell, is that in the event of a failure, scheduled water changes aren't happening as planned.

That being said, there are likely risks and failure points I've missed - do you see any @ian_m (assuming you understand my rambling explanation).

 

[ian_m]

That being said, there are likely risks and failure points I've missed - do you see any @ian_m (assuming you understand my rambling explanation).

A diagram would be nice ?

Baffles and weirs in sumps are a must to compartmentalize the water, so basically it is not possible for the whole sump volume to end up in the tank or on the floor !!!.

Continuous water change systems I have seen tend to be "passive", in that water is added and excess overflows away, normally water is added to the main tank rather than sump. Water is added to main tank, via continuous drip system, periodically pumped out of storage container or even a syphon system that when the storage container got full it just syphoned the tank load into main tank. Again no electrics, no valves, no pumps required to add water, but more importantly no electrics, no pumps etc required to keep water level constant.

 

[aeneas]

If sump pump fails/turns off/power cut, water drains from the pipework, raises in sump and drains to out of your overflow, thus you are losing "working water".

One way check valves never ever ever ever ever work reliably. You get a snail/plant/detritus stuck in them preventing them working, as well as seriously restricting flow. If you are intending on relying on them to prevent back syphoning and sump over filling....DONT. Use air gaps, weirs, water boxes etc to prevent back flow.

Agree with point #1 - my sketch does not show this well, but I already went away from constant dripping and then overflowing into the drain pipe as water exchange - I am now planning to use two float switches, controlled by GHL profilux and doing the water exchange in a controlled manner on a timer; the GHL will activate a small separate water pump to pump ~50L water into the drain pipe, then a solenoid valve will open to refill the 50L RO water back into the sump; a doser will take care that the RO water is remineralised.

Regarding the "working water" I also agree with your point - so the adjustable-height-drain-to-sewage will actually be positioned quite high up - it will allow the sump to fill in with water from the overflow and still give some extra "buffer" space above it. I can tilt it up or down to fine-tune. This way it will prevent sump overflow in case of some kind of emergency (fail-safe) but will not impair the regular operations. I actually intend for the pump to stop or slow down each time we are feeding the fish to minimize water flow and allow the food to be consumed with less waste spreading through the tank, so the pump will probably stop quite regularly.

As for the return pipes, I did plan on using check valves... I see no other solution that would make sense. What other solution do you suggest? I don't really understand what did you mean bu air gaps/weirs etc. How would that help?

Just to add to Ian's excellent points, you can also lay the heaters down in the pump chamber, and have the pump raised up on a small stand so that the bottom of the pump intake is an inch or two above the heaters, so if the pump runs the sump dry the heaters will still be underwater. Additionally you can add a float switch to turn off the heaters if the water level drops too low - though you wouldn't want to be relying solely on a float switch as it can fail or clog, it adds an additional failsafe.

Indeed, the bottom float switch which will be used for AWC and connected to GHL Profilux can be used also as an "off" trigger for the heaters - that is a good idea!! 🙂

 

[Wookii]

A diagram would be nice ?

Baffles and weirs in sumps are a must to compartmentalize the water, so basically it is not possible for the whole sump volume to end up in the tank or on the floor !!!.

Continuous water change systems I have seen tend to be "passive", in that water is added and excess overflows away, normally water is added to the main tank rather than sump. Water is added to main tank, via continuous drip system, periodically pumped out of storage container or even a syphon system that when the storage container got full it just syphoned the tank load into main tank. Again no electrics, no valves, no pumps required to add water, but more importantly no electrics, no pumps etc required to keep water level constant.

Very rough drawing.

 

[ian_m]

You have to be very careful using multiple timers and pumps.

Why are aren't you pumping waste water straight out to drain ?

Things to plan for are:

• A lot of pumps are not happy if run dry. Some require water to be cooled and function properly. You need to prevent pumps running dry.
• I used to run my filter pump on a timer. Stopped that as once or twice in a quite a few years it didn't start, just sat and buzzed. Power cycling fixed it.
• How are setting pump rates ? Normally you design a system so that pump runs 100% and has bypasses to divert/let escape excess water ?
• This is how you can balance water flows with non variable pump.

 

[Wookii]

You have to be very careful using multiple timers and pumps.

Why are aren't you pumping waste water straight out to drain ?

So I can guarantee to pump an exact amount of water for the water change - e.g. 40 litres removed, 40 litres new water added. If the pump just runs to the mains waste the pump output could potentially vary over time. It would also allow me to see visually that the process is happening as required.

Things to plan for are:

• A lot of pumps are not happy if run dry. Some require water to be cooled and function properly. You need to prevent pumps running dry.

Are you referring to the pump in the waste water container? If so, yep, I'd get a pump with built in dry run protection, or use some other method to prevent the pump running dry.

• I used to run my filter pump on a timer. Stopped that as once or twice in a quite a few years it didn't start, just sat and buzzed. Power cycling fixed it.

Interesting. I'd use decent quality pumps. If pumps don't restart after a power cycle, then that pretty much kills any automation ideas at the first fence.

• How are setting pump rates ? Normally you design a system so that pump runs 100% and has bypasses to divert/let escape excess water ?
• This is how you can balance water flows with non variable pump.

View attachment 169284

I'd use a DC pump, something like an EcoTech Marine Vectra or similar, with infinite control over the flow range.

 

[aeneas]

Agree with point #1 - my sketch does not show this well, but I already went away from constant dripping and then overflowing into the drain pipe as water exchange - I am now planning to use two float switches, controlled by GHL profilux and doing the water exchange in a controlled manner on a timer; the GHL will activate a small separate water pump to pump ~50L water into the drain pipe, then a solenoid valve will open to refill the 50L RO water back into the sump; a doser will take care that the RO water is remineralised.

Regarding the "working water" I also agree with your point - so the adjustable-height-drain-to-sewage will actually be positioned quite high up - it will allow the sump to fill in with water from the overflow and still give some extra "buffer" space above it. I can tilt it up or down to fine-tune. This way it will prevent sump overflow in case of some kind of emergency (fail-safe) but will not impair the regular operations. I actually intend for the pump to stop or slow down each time we are feeding the fish to minimize water flow and allow the food to be consumed with less waste spreading through the tank, so the pump will probably stop quite regularly.

As for the return pipes, I did plan on using check valves... I see no other solution that would make sense. What other solution do you suggest? I don't really understand what did you mean bu air gaps/weirs etc. How would that help?


Indeed, the bottom float switch which will be used for AWC and connected to GHL Profilux can be used also as an "off" trigger for the heaters - that is a good idea!! 🙂

Don't want to break an interesting conversation 😉 ...but coming back to my sump design - would the answers I gave ease your concerns or do you still see design flaws and would recommend further adjustments?
From what I can say now is that certainly the last glass baffle is not necessary, but other things I still think they make sense...?

 

[aeneas]

Picking up this thread again after a while... the build of the tank is tanking longer than I hoped, but now seems we have a likely delivery date end of July, so not too far away.
I am starting to work on my hardscape concepts as well as picking up the list of plants for the scape.
Choice of stocking with fish will follow soon.
As you can see below, I made a mockup of the actual size with styrofoam, bought crazy amount of wood and rocks and took a shot of recreating the Josh Sim's Congo concept with three "bush" areas and two paths in between. The two bush areas on the left are slightly closer and slightly smaller as to create an asymmetric position (not really golden ratio, but at least hinting at it). The left and right bush areas are slightly more at the front and the central is more at the back, leaning forward, creating plenty of shade areas underneath.
There will be more rocks and the whole background will be elevated with soil and sand. But at least this is a start...
Let me know what you think of the hardscape? Any comments / suggestions?

Secondly, I would very very much appreciate some feedback and input on the choice of plants. Please see my current idea of foreground (red), midground (green) and background (blue) plants below; I tried to give a rough idea where these could be positioned...
In particular I cannot truly decide what choices to make of the larger background plants... Echinodorus / Anubias / etc. and which ones? Also, I would really like to place a nice area of Rotalas - a combination of green and red H'ra etc. but again, not really entirely sure which ones and where.
Please see the current sketch below on top of the photo of the hardscape which I put together:



(A) Foreground plants:

• Eleocharis parvula mini: 50x
• Vesicularia dubyana (Christmas moss): 25x (to be glued on to rocks and smaller pebbles)
• Anubias nana Petite / Bonsai: min. 15x
• Hudrocotyle verticillata: 4x
• Cryptocoryne parva: 8x

(B) Midground plants

• Vesicularia ferriei (Weeping moss): min. 15x
• Cryptocoryne Wenditii Green: 10x
• Microsorum pteropus Trident: 6x
• Bolbitis heudelotii: 4x
• Hygrophilia pinnatifida: 6x
• Bucephalandra: brown? red mini? dwarf green? how many?

(C) Background plants

• Eleocharis acicularis: 10x
• Cyperus helferi: 5x
• Cryptocoryne Balansae?
• Echinodorus: bleheri??, tricolor?? - yes/no, where & how many?
• Anubias: barteri??, coffeefolia?? - yes/no, where & how many?
• Rotala: rotundifolia green??, H'ra??, orange juice??, wallichii?? - yes/no, where & how many?
• Aponogeton madagascariensis? I know this one likes cooler water but I love its looks...might try one or two in the corner and see how they perform

The plants are mainly green, but would love some bits of red here and there...
Finally, I would like to have some plants growing (a) as bacground plants reaching surface and possibly growing leaves out of the water - maybe even blooming occasionally? and (b) choosing some plants that can grow on the parts of the roots that stick outside the water so that there would be some plants growing there not submersed. What would you advise?

Also a top-view of the layout might be helpful so here is a photo of this as well:

 

[aeneas]

Ehm... seems most folks are on summer vacation already 😉 ...any comments and suggestions on the choice of plants or the layout?